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uh wrong. The demonstrations were against democratically elected Viktor Yanukovych.
Then there were elections in May that Poroshenko won . However ,most of the Donbass region was disenfranchised and could not vote.
You crack me up . On one posting you decry the rule of billionaire oligarchs and on this post you support it .
He was elected by a clear majority, if Donbass was disenfranchised it was as the result of their own actions, polling stations were open where possible. What you seem to ignore is the balance of power shifted with the removal of Crimea. Putin shot himself in the foot with that one. I thought you like oligarcs after all your country is run by them and they fit right into right wing politics. Putin didn't like the decision of the people but then tyrants never like democracy particularly when the result goes against them.
We are now at the point where we see if american rhetoric matches their actions. Owbama is working very hard to get others to do the heavy lifting after being part of the problem he doesn't want to be part of the solution
You are right that the emperor's minions largely incited the rebellion against Yanukovych .
I am not "right winged " except in the context of your flawed spectrum . I am an American conservative ,a movement founded in the ideas of the founders . Nothing in our system encourages rule by the oligarch .Oligarchs gained power through progressive statism.
Conservatives pushed for tax cuts for the rich, and deregulation, wage stagnation, union busting, fight expansion of medicare, want cuts in poor people benefit, deny unemployment extension, and anything to help the middle class and poor American weather the storm of the financial crisis caused by Wall Street, who have recovered fully, and rake in money hand over fist, and you have the nerve to say its all the fault of progressives?
Okay you aren't a winger, but you are a free market capitalist with a very broken business model that's manipulated by oligarchs to extract all the wealth out of the economy. Conservative unfairness Tom, plain and simple. The founders would be appalled at the way conservatives have ruined their country, and blocked progress, growth, and prosperity for its people.
all Elizabeth Warren need do is download some of your rants and she'll have a season full of stump speeches. The truth is that it is the statists policies of the progressives that caused and prolonged the financial crisis . It is policies to address YOUR image of fairness and their unintended consequences that is the cause of the nations ruin. The founders would be appalled at how the "left" has distorted the constitution and the governing model they constructed .
Nice rant yourself Tom, but Romney already tried that one and lost. Your plot to diminish the government of the people and turn it over to private business will fail.
That's no rant, it's a prediction. If you holler like a winger, you might be a winger.
I agree with Tom. I have seen many times how progrssives have tried to yell and scream from both sides causing nothing but disolution for progress. You keep ranting how conservatives want to hurt the poor and yet progressives want to control the poor as personal slaves.
I hear communist propaganda there dad, marxism has no place in a modern society. The conservatives want to exploit this is what they have always done, the progressives want to own the means of production
Well for the sake of discussion we could stop the broad accusations and get specific, as I have outlined in my above so called "rant".
Just pick any topic and lets get it on. I'll start, living wages in light of the moving of former middle class jobs overseas. Or a 10 year infrastructure plan that creates skilled jobs, and fixes stuff that's been broken and neglected.Quote:
Conservatives pushed for tax cuts for the rich, and deregulation, wage stagnation, union busting, fight expansion of medicare, want cuts in poor people benefit, deny unemployment extension, and anything to help the middle class and poor American weather the storm of the financial crisis caused by Wall Street, who have recovered fully, and rake in money hand over fist,
don't have to debate any of your domestic points. Your embrace of the ultimate oligarch ,turned state ruler in a rigged election ,the corrupt Petro Poroshenko ,makes my case .
I haven't embraced anyone Tom, just criticized Putin for his actions. You have me confused with someone else, and that explains a lot.
see that's the problem ,a myopic view that doesn't take into account the actions of Kiev . Go look at the pictures of Luhansk and Donetsk . You made a big to do about Israeli precision attacks in Gaza against an enemy that was attacking them ,but say nothing about Ukraine's indiscriminant attacks on it's own ethnic Russians .
You completely ignore the obvious Tom, there is a civil war being waged by seperatists aided by Russia. Here we have a people who rebell when the political decisions go against them because they think they would be better off with Russia. What would happen if Oregon rebelled and said they would be better off with Canada because they don't like Obama and Canada sent forces into Washington state to support them.
Someone stated a shooting war and there are consequences of using heavy weapons
This is but ONE of many conflicts going on in the world.
Yes and Putin has taken advantage of the distraction, while the world moves to deal with ISIS, he invades Ukraine. The seperatists would not have been so bold had they not had Russian support
indeed ;Kiev started using the heavy weapons against civilians .You also conveniently ignore that neo-Nazi militias were at the forefront of the Kiev coup that ousted the elected President Viktor Yanukovych.Quote:
Someone stated a shooting war and there are consequences of using heavy weapons
yes .you will recall how Putin pulled the emperor's feet out of the fire when he was at the verge of bombing Assad in support of ISIS when he foolishly put his foot in his mouth about a red line crossed.Quote:
This is but ONE of many conflicts going on in the world.
The fact that the emperor was completely wrong about which side used chemical weapons gets ignored by the cheerleaders of the regime .
U.N. has testimony that Syrian rebels used sarin gas: investigator | Reuters
So it all comes down to nazi fighting communists, sort of reflects the conflict you find in your own society, but the difference here is the conflict of freedom and oppression and that is a two edged sword, subject to which side you are on. You need to change the lens to a different colourQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
the conflict really comes down to Yanukovych rejecting an EU proposal when Moscow made a better offer.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
That's when the west orchestrated the coup against the elected government in Ukraine .
Regional feudalism still in the 21st century, and it still comes down to the strongest military.
Better offer, well maybe but it came with manicles, I like to live in a country where we can trade with who we like and so do the Ukrainians. More and More Tom you sound like Pravada
Pravda ,the NY Slimes .....what's the difference ? You think the western press is going out of it's way to report this objectively ? Even in the 1950s there was debate about the logic of plunging into the cold war . There certainly was more debate about our war against jihadistan .
However there are some objective journalists still in the west .
Fresh evidence of how the West lured Ukraine into its orbit - Telegraph
And the EU and IMF versions don't ?Quote:
Better offer, well maybe but it came with manicles,
Russia Gives Ukraine Bailout Package of at Least $20 Billion - WSJ
Meanwhile the IMF offered Ukraine a bailout with austerity measures that would make them the next Greece. Who do you think gave them the better deal?
What's Putin Up to Now? Four Possible Explanations - Businessweek
By hook, crook, or big stick! Then we have,Quote:
Despite his more moderate rhetoric, Putin's goal remains to foster instability in Ukraine and undermine the government in Kiev, Masha Lipman, an analyst at the Carnegie Moscow Center, tells Bloomberg News. “Russia wants to avoid any possibility that Ukraine will move toward normalcy and the Western orbit,” she says.
Putin's Economic Model Showing Strain as Russia Is Cut Off From Global Finance - Businessweek
Putin's Popularity Up, Russian Economic Prospects Down - Businessweek
You think the Russian people get the real news? Do we? It's a big game of chess and the world is the board.
Lipman exposes her own biasis with this comment “Russia wants to avoid any possibility that Ukraine will move toward normalcy and the Western orbit.” Is EU expansion the normal ;and why does the dysfunctional EU want to expand east ? What product does Ukraine make or provide Europe ?
Economy of Ukraine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
You can draw the same conclusions as I can Tom Ukraine is strategically important to Russia and other CSA countries, and so has the ability to provide EU with minerals and it's enegy is largely untapped. It is not the poor relation as some former soviet countries were, but has suffered decline since the GFC and no doubt was looking for a boost
so it makes perfect sense for Kiev to attack and destroy their own industrial base.
It makes the same sense to remove the seperatists as it did to open fire on the crowds in Ferguson. Some people just don't respond well to being told no, and others don't respond well to being told there are better opportunities over here. I can understand the Ukraine didn't want to remain a Moscow satellite, just as I understand my own nation doesn't want to be under the US shadow, no matter what they do to the contrary. Putin is old school communist and old school dictator, my way or the highway stuff. No matter what you think about your emperor he doesn't have the will to stop him. We must stop thinking about the Russians as some sort of backwoods place, they were living in palaces and conquering Europe when you were still living in log cabins. The Ukraine was, until recent history, an integral part of "Russia" and there is a lot at stake for Russia, not the least of which is control of their pipelines. Having said that, the Russian incursion is unacceptable
is that what you think happened there ? What distorted press gave you that info ? A cop was forced to resign for pointing his rifle at the crowd . The cops used tear gas and were attacked with Molotov cocktails .Quote:
It makes the same sense to remove the seperatists as it did to open fire on the crowds in Ferguson
indeed we must .We must also stop thinking of Russia as a conquered nation which surrendered it's national identity when the Berlin wall fell.Quote:
We must stop thinking about the Russians as some sort of backwoods place, they were living in palaces and conquering Europe when you were still living in log cabins. The Ukraine was, until recent history, an integral part of "Russia" and there is a lot at stake for Russia, not the least of which is control of their pipelines.
and so is Kiev's heavy handed response in eastern Ukraine .Quote:
Having said that, the Russian incursion is unacceptable
Ukraine rebel-held city Donetsk left in ruins after shelling
You think they were heavy handed, I saw video of a fire fight, I doubt there has been a fire fight like that since WWII, certainly not in the UKraine. They haven't been fighting seperatists they have been fighting Russians, Russian troops on special leave with heavy weapons. I saw another vide of a russian train, with rocket launchers and heavy tanks. I think what happened is the Ukrainian army walked into a trap. There are stories of Russian tanks destroying villages, who are they fighting. You side with the Russians. It will serve you well when they take New York. I would say it is the Russians who destroyed Donetsk just by being there, same tactics they used at Stalingrad, draw the enemy in and encircle them then hit them with tanks
The west and Russia should've concentrated on things they have in common ..like the threat from jihadistan and China .Instead the west saw a weakened Russia ;and took the opportunity to expand NATO ,(an alliance that was looking for a purpose in the post-cold war world ), to Russia's borders. Russia gained back a degree of it's strength ,due to western foolish energy and monetary polices ,and decided to draw a 'red line ' at Georgia and Ukraine . The proposition that NATO was a defensive alliance with it's actions in the Balkans ,Libya ,and it's eastward expansion is a dubious one .
It did not have to be this way .The US has reacted very similarly when Soviet expansion threatened our borders. What did you think Putin would do ? allow Sevastopol to become a NATO base ?
I don't apologize for his actions ;but I do understand his motivations .It has nothing to do with expanding Russian territory ,or rebuilding the old Soviet Union.
What should be done ? I support federalism as the most logical governing model for Ukraine .
Nato and the EU have been working with the Ukraine for years until the pro Russian puppet tried to derail what they had done.
The EU as a good neighbour | Socialists & Democrats
European Neighbourhood Policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
U.S. Embraces EU Leadership on Ukraine It Recently Cursed - Businessweek
Quote:
The EU accounts for about a third of Ukraine's external trade, with Russia the other large trade partner. The EU also is the major source of foreign direct investment in Ukraine -- although such investment has dropped by more than half in the three years of Yanukovych's term, to $7 billion from $15 billion in 2008 and 2009, according to the state statistical office.
Putin's Role
The EU and the U.S. share a broad geopolitical concern that Russian President Vladimir Putin is seeking to lock Ukraine in Russia's orbit even as many Ukrainians aspire to expand ties with the EU. The anti-government protests were sparked by Yanukovych's November decision to back out of a pending free-trade pact with the EU in favor of ties with Russia, which offered $15 billion of aid and cheaper natural gas.
I think we are seeing the results of expansionist american policy, just like the communists they will not stop until everyone is in their sphere of influence, to borrow from the Borg, resistance is futile
Actually the Russians have an agreement with the EU themselves,
Russia–European Union relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But of course the more rhetorical form you use was to enhance the Borg reference right? If not co-operation by mutual AGREEMENT cannot be seen strictly as expansionism nor assimilation.Quote:
Russio-European relations are the international relations between the supranationalEuropean Union (EU) and its largest bordering state, the Russian Federation, to the east. The relations of individual member states of the European Union and Russia vary, though a 1990s common foreign policy outline towards Russia was the first such EU foreign policy agreed. Furthermore, four European Union-Russia Common Spaces are agreed as a framework for establishing better relations.
the EU is a utopian failure .The futility is thinking that the diverse continent can be incorporated into a single entity . some choice the Ukrainians are given . statist socialism no matter which way they look.
Well Tom they were looking to the EU so the choice was theirs and they were making it but not as a member but economic cooperation. On the american continent a number of diverse states formed a union and continually expaned it, why would you deny the europeans the same opportunity. What you have here is a waining power trying to cling on to empire
the American model of states forming a union around a central government with limited defined powers was broken years ago by the utopian progressive movement . I fully expect that given time ,and knowing European tendencies ,that the EU will devolve into a dictatorial empire.
Well of course the course of republics is to form empire, isn't this what you are accusing Owbama of. The reasons for this are obvious and you can see them in your own government. Representative government reaches the stage where progress cannot be made and executive decisions lead to bypassing an intractiable house of representatives however called, Charles tried it in England and almost succeeded but was replaced by an even more formidable potentate. Putin has made the Duma a rubber stamp
Plausiable deniability
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