yes it should be free for everyone, and vaccination is an important health care initiative that lowers care costs
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yes it should be free for everyone, and vaccination is an important health care initiative that lowers care costs
Where are you going to find people willing to spend 8 years in medical school... then work for free?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
No Let the government pay for it, the return on investment is obvious, it will reduce costs under Obamacare, obviously medical practitioners will be paid to administer the vaccinations should they want the work but it really needs lesser skilled medical staff, it can be done in a clinic
Or by the nurse practioner/assistant who administers the flu shots when YOU visit YOUR doctor.
These vaccinations can be administered by LPNs or RNs. I do the flu shots every year.
Nurses attend medical schools as well and work hard to get their accreditations... they won't work free either.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
THe Government pays? Where do you think the government get its money from?. and its certainly not everyone that will be getting something for nothing. Roughly 47% pay no federal taxes now... so they aren't contributing one iota towards the costs.
How is the government going to pay for it? We are already trillions in debt. Where are we going to get the money?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
I'm am RN, went to what my husband refers to as "mini medical school" as it took me 4 years versus 8.
Lesser skilled? Do you have any idea how many doctors actually ask nurses for advice?
Vermont wants a single payer system. But a study just concluded that the state needs to double it's taxes (not just income taxes ,but double it's combined tax intake of all taxes ) to pay for it . Obviously Vermont ,not being the national government doesn't have the option of passing on it's debts to their grandchildren ,or to print money . So they have to fund their social programs in real time. That is why Dem lawmaker Rep. Jim Condon has said that Vermont should shelve it's plan to adopt single payer .
Smoothy is right . This illusion that some have that if the goverment pays for it that there is no cost is absurd . You see it with Obamacare too where EVERY part of it that is "free " has support .But when it comes to pay for it ,the mandates get delayed until after elections so there is no political costs to the pols. who support it.
So you rather have an epidemic of measles because nobody can pay for the vaccination shots? Isn't that the whole point of INSURANCE for everybody? So the government DOESN'T pay as much?
That's just silly. Who is going to pay for the insurance for everybody?Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
I am all ears for a better idea than my silly idea.
Wouldn't it be wiser to focus on the drug companies to charge lesser for these vaccinations that should be required rather than expect the government to supply them for free?
Maybe we should focus on the exorbitant fees the drug companies charge. Most of their research is funded by grants anyway.
I can go with that, and cut the costs that insurance companies, and doctors charge too.
There is no epidemic. Not even close ;and no your ideas of insurance are utopian . Vermont with it's small population of 626,146 (49th largest state by population...the only state with fewer people is Wyoming ) will have to increase spending by a min. of $2.2 billion just to institute their single payer 'plan for everybody' .
The irony of this whole discussion is that we are debating people who normally have contempt for the drug companies. But when it comes to big Pharma studies about the possible negative effects of their vaccines ,their conclusion is the orthodoxy ,and independent studies about the harm that preservatives and heavy metals in the vaccines cause are dismissed .Quote:
Originally Posted by J_9
There will be an epidemic if people don't get vaccinated. Evidently enough do so there is no epidemic.
Tal, do you know what a doctors med/mal insurance is per month? Do you understand why it is so high?Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Aside from paying their staff, some of them (not the greedy ones) have to make a living.
Two of the OBs I work for pay upwards of $10,000 per month for med/mal insurance. As a nurse, I pay only a measly $100 per month. There is also the issue of paying back student loans, paying staff and overhead for offices.
my heart bleeds to hear that those who choose to be in a lucrative business have expenses
J, frankly I don't care what he has to pay from his profits. He makes money off my sick arse, hmmmmm so do you. But I love you both for your efforts. :)
Remember that when you pull down my pants with a needle in your hand. :D Still the cost of living is too damn high, and my earnings are to damn low.
And yet people who don't finish high school or make any effort to better themselves.. are somehow entitled to even more money to reward them for their laziness.
Sorry... Doctors work their Butts off through med school... work their butts off through residencey... they have earned the higher than average pay they get. (also applies to Nurses, etc)
Perhaps we should cut teachers pay as well... Lawyers, Judges... and all Polititians as well (hell make political positions unpaid, they make enough with insider trading as it is)... Why stop there?
Outlaw unions because all those people working for the union didn't earn the right to that money... and they are handsomely paid...we can return ot the pre-industrial hand to mouth subsistance.
you should care . If the doctors can't make a living that they think is worth the time and efforts they put into their business (yes running a doctor's office is a business ) ,and their level of education and time it took them to learn their craft ....then they will find something else to do for a living and you can get your butt poked by someone far less competent .
Yep... remember when the Barbers did all the doctoring? Bring out the leeches and get rid of the bad blood. Ah! The good ole days.
Yep the pre industrial age, now this differs in certain parts of your country from what? You appear to be in the post industrial age and it is characterised by a few high earning professions and a whole lot of low level jobs, We have been going down this road for thirty years, so here is a heads up, you will see a lot of part time jobs, industries fleeing to low cost countries and questions being asked about what you can continue to afford, I hear the word co-payment being used a lot, and industrial agreements ditching those hard won entitlements like overtime. start thinking about buying your first chinese or indian made auto, it might soon be a reality, Get used to your food coming from some place else.
You don't seem to want to take into account the hard work, long hours, and buttload of student loans it took to get through medical school. Docs deserve to get paid more than the average Joe. You seem to want to punish us for our dedication to education and our professions, yet want to reward the high school drop out with free medical, more food stamps, free cell phones.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
If your earnings are too low, maybe you are in the wrong profession.
You mean $10,000 a year?Quote:
Originally Posted by J_9
I haven't read every post, so if I repeat something someone else has already said, I'm sorry.
I'm all for vaccinations, and both of my children have had every necessary vaccinations, including the chicken pox vaccine, which isn't on the list of needed vaccines.
Having said that, my son went to school with a severely autistic child from kindergarten to grade 6. He was born a very healthy child. He knew his alphabet, was potty trained, extremely bright and perfectly healthy. Then he had his 2 year shots. That night he came down with a very high fever. His parents rushed him to the hospital. Long story short, since that day he's been severely autistic. To this day (he's now 15) he can't even say his own name, much less spell it. He wears a diaper. He will never be able to support himself or live on his own. His future isn't too bright. One day he will end up in a home, since his parents won't live forever.
There have been studies, and there is a small percentage of the population that are severely affected, like my sons friend, because of their childhood vaccines.
Now, I take the risk because I feel that the benefit far outweighs the risk. But, I'm pretty sure I'd feel very differently if I were in the shoes of a mother whose child's life was destroyed all because of a vaccine that was supposed to keep him healthy. I'd be even more upset if I was forced to give my child a vaccine if I decided that the risks were too great.
One added thing. Approved vaccines for children are free in my part of Canada. So there is no debate about paying for them. Our health care covers these vaccines. I didn't even have to pay for the chicken pox vaccine, which isn't on the list of must have vaccines for children. I also don't pay for flu shots. It's all covered by health care, which is also free.
bravely said, don't fall off that pedastal of privilege. Noone says that doctors shouldn't be well paid, but I didn't hear anything about dedication and healing the sick there, just some self centred "we are entitled".
Instead of lamenting the high school dropout you should use your professions expertise to determine the reason for these dropouts, and it will take a whole raft of professionals to do the studies and we may not like the answers, nurture will be a big part of it, so will culture but the whole teaching regime might need to change making education related to the way the world is now. Not every kid is going to college, etc and education should recognise this
Check out this preventable disease outbreak map, it's very scary, even in remote areas, outbreaks are happening. Map: Vaccine-Preventable Outbreaks | Introduction
Someone should send it to Jenny McCarthy. She is such a hypocrite, she slams vaccines for being toxic, yet has botox, breast implants and who knows what else. She became famous by posing for Playboy, yet grilled a girl who was paying for her education by starring in porn.
yes many celebs who take up causes are hypocrites. My favorites are the ones who are anti 2nd Amendment and star in shoot-em-up movies ;or someone like Leo Di Caprio who proclaims that he'll fly around the world in his private jet to promote environmentalism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by earl237
yep lots of preventable diseases are being brought back from overseas, I see the huge incidence of purtussis in the US, this disease is endemic to Pakistan and Afghanistan so no marks for guessing why you have a problem, and measels has certainly emerged as a serious worldwide problem and this is being carried by migrants from Africa into Europe. The traffic of unvaccinated refugees must be stopped for health reasons, you can see where these policies are implemented the incidence is lower. Sometimes freedom means responsibility
So we have to have mandatory vaccinations because we can't control who enters our country . I rest my case.
yep you get the picture, the enemy may be hard to see, remember what virus and microbes did to the original inhabitants of your land, made the take over easier, it could happen again
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
We know the reasons these people drop out... they are lazy... don't want to work (made clear while they are still in school)... and they don't feel its cool to be educated.
smoothy it is too easy to blame the victum of the system. the problems are systemic and are wider than the school system, however you have to teach children that they have opportunity, not defeat and you have to give them attainable goals, not goals that relate to the top 5%. the kids are not stupid, they know people who have lost their jobs, who haven't worked in years and they take this on and say what about me?
it's not cool to be educated when education does nothing for you, what does a high school diploma buy you, entrance to a university, maybe.
Look at it this way, I am the first generation in my family to have a degree, and two fellowships, a high school dropout at 14, my father was a miner who never finished high school, only one of my children has a degree, the others dropped out and probably regret it. I didn't drop out because I was lazy, i was top of my class, but family dynamics meant I wanted out. From your lofty height you would look down on them, and me, but they are productive citizens even if they struggle to make ends meet in poorly paid jobs. Kids in high school are not mature enough to make decisions about their future. They should be helped, not criticised.
I blame these people because I grew up with many of them... I knew them all well enough to make a well proven claim, some I knew from kindergarten through high school or until they dropped out. There is no reason to believe the rest are not exactly the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
I can't comment on your school systems... but ours have a number of different paths and different curriculums based on if someone intends to attend college or not. We even have curriculums for certain types of job fields. Also quite a few jobs require at least a HIgh School Diploma. If for no other reason than it demonstrates you aren't as likely to quit whenever the work gets difficult.
Here in th USA you aren't legally allowed to drop out until you are at least 16. Personally I think that should be 18 or your graduate... no exceptions, but I don't write the laws.
Anyopne old enough to have or father a child.. is old enough to take criticism for their actions... without exception. IF they insist on doing absolutely stupid things... then doubley so.
And besides...these people make the decisions...then they refuse to accept the responsibility that goes with their decisions and blame everyone else but themselves.....many of them become Democrats and make a carreer of blaming others.
sterotyping doesn't cut it smoothy, we have all moved on from the days when I was at school. If we were serious we would all take a really good look at the system and what it produces. Teacher performance standards should be in place and enforced and there is a responsibility for government and employers to provide jobs, not take the least cost option.
The nonsence of the level playing field that has allowed jobs to be exported offshore needs to be reversed and industries protected, not necessarily 100% but by quotas as I said before your FTA's have backfired on you and it is time to recognise it
YOU call it sterotyping... when its not. It's a matter of fact these people all make bad choices, many of them over, and over and over... then blame everyone else for them. When nobody can legally FORCE them to do anything they don't want.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Level playing field... what a load of Marxist crap...
When you have people who are allowed to refuse to study in school... and you have those who do take advantage of a free public education... level playing field is a vision of some socialist Utopia that doesn't and never will exist.
THe government isn't responsible to find anyone jobs... thats another Socialist concept... and no private or public entity is morally or legally required to provide jobs to anyone but those best qualified to have them.
No, I mean per month. The insurance covers the entire practice (2 docs), including all staff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Pedestal of privilege? What privilege? I am the only one in my family to have a college degree. I worked full time while raising a family as well as going to school full time to achieve what I did. It's not privilege, it's called a work ethic.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Let's talk about dedication, shall we? I work 60+ hours a week to support my family, I'm dedicated to them, but I'm also dedicated to my patients or I wouldn't put in that 60+ hours a week. Docs get called at all hours of the day and night, my docs rarely sleep. One pediatrician spends an entire week at the hospital 24/7 when she is on call. No going home, no seeing her children. 24/7 in the on-call room. Why? Because she is dedicated and is there when there is a sick baby. Is that more for your liking?
Yes, after our hard work and dedication we are entitled to get what we deserve, unlike the entitled who think that they deserve a handout on my dime. Those that collect food stamps and welfare only to have another baby to get more food stamps and a bigger welfare check. Where is that money coming from?
That's another thread in and of itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Back to the thread at hand though...
Yes, vaccinations should be mandatory, but we cannot force people to take a vaccination, again, that would be assault. No, I don't agree with people like Jenny McCarthy, and her stand on this chaps my a$$, but I can't run at her children and stab them with a needle, now can I?
Hmmm... that seems excessive.Quote:
Originally Posted by J_9
Here is something I read in this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_9
You do what you have to do to make a living in this economy. And with ObamaCare looming, there are many cuts made to the point that hospitals are overcrowded and short staffed. I do what I have to do to support my family and take care of my patients.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
What are you expecting? A copy of my clocking at work? Put it to you this way, out of the last 8 days I worked 7, have tonight and tomorrow off, then back to work it is.
Not excessive... Dedicated.
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