If her SSI is 550 and her food stamps only 70, then she must be in a living situation that covers other major expenses?
In fact, 70 is off the charts. A housing situation where most meals are provided?
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If her SSI is 550 and her food stamps only 70, then she must be in a living situation that covers other major expenses?
In fact, 70 is off the charts. A housing situation where most meals are provided?
She has assistance but trust me, it wasn't much different living on her own
Why SSI and not SSD?
Where do people get this idea that an entry level job should pay enough to raise a family? This is a classic case of people wanting more for doing less. Get an education, get some experience and move up in the world. Entry level jobs are for people who are starting, not people who have to support a family. To pay someone $15 to work at McDonalds is ridiculous, unless they have managerial training and work full-time and are there in a full-time capacity.
These jobs provide more than pay - they provide an entry to the working world, job experience, references if you do a good job and are responsible. It becomes problematic when people who don't pursue better employment - they drop out of school, decide they don't want to do the work of attending college, don't pursue a skilled trade, don't take advantage of training programs offered by their employers to earn promotions - but want to earn at a level as if they had done all of this.
If you are not supplementing another family member who has a well-paying full-time job, and you aren't a teenager living home with your folks, an entry level job is not adequate for you and you need to earn your way up just like all the people who came before you.
I have an education today and a professional job with a decent income - I had to pay my own way through college and bust my butt to get it.
A million greenies to dontknownuthin. At 35 after being home for nearly 12 years raising kids, I went back to work as a part-time library book shelver for $3 an hour and also worked part time at a school across the street. Over the next 30 years, I clawed my way (by attending grad school and by taking training courses and by being a little bright light) into more and more responsible jobs at various libraries and eventually reached a pinnacle as a library cataloging department head and other fun stuff. (I didn't want to be a library director -- would have to be available 24/7 and also have to plunge toilets, if necessary.)
Entry-level jobs are meant to be that -- an entry into a career or industry, not a lifelong job for supporting a family. In entry-level jobs, you learn the basics, prove your worth, and move up into more responsible and better-paying positions.
They are obviously no longer JUST entry level jobs to some people. They may be the only jobs available, and the workforce has many older people who are forced into this market.
What would you do if your job folded and went to India even with all your education and hard work, and had a few kids in school, and were divorced?
Granted, jobs were much easier to get back in the '70s and '80s -- fewer people and more jobs.Quote:
They are obviously no longer JUST entry level jobs to some people. They may be the only jobs available, and the workforce has many older people who are forced into this market.
I'd work at whatever part-time jobs I could get -- cleaning motel rooms, waitressing, teacher aide with a foot in the door for teaching (had a state certificate), etc. and would work out with friends and neighbors to help me with daycare and child transportation, as needed (because they would know I would help them out if they were in the same spot). And I'd find ways to pay them back, even if it weren't in cash.Quote:
What would you do if your job folded and went to India even with all your education and hard work, and had a few kids in school, and were divorced?
Hello again,
If there were no high school, you couldn't call middle school, middle school.. If there were NO secondary jobs, you couldn't call the only job people can get, an entry level job..
excon
My jaw drops when people talk on the media about how they are still making 8.25/hr after 10 years. That's their own doing! They took no courses, learned no skills. They had babies instead or just sat around after work. Their own doing!
I worked for a small company where I learned a bit of bookkeeping, and was the person who set up the computers, learning as I went (long ago). I then went out on my own, doing office management with computer set up. I got all relevant IRS publications and read them. I spent hours of my own time learning state and federal payroll and income taxes, and how to use Excel to do job costing and so on.
What are any of the protesters doing? Nothing. They could be learning construction or any of the related trades. I lived next to a plumber who told me he couldn't get apprentices anymore. And yes, women can do those jobs too.
Half the marriages and most relationships fail, and I doubt anyone having kids figures the guy will leave, add bubbles that burst, and high impact recessions, and so called business downturns, there are MANY challenges, and some take years to recover from. Others have less resources, help, support, and guidance, than others, or personal issues and private challenges.
We are fortunate if we made it through that but some did not even if they worked hard. I would think anyone that goes through these forums would know that and have some empathy for the less than perfect fellow human. Some are nasty nog heads but I think/hope many are trying hard even though they are not very successful... yet!
I am a bleeding heart 'empathist' in most ways. The issue here is $15/hr.
AGAIN, plenty of trained, skilled people make less than that! That's $31,200/yr!
I don't like it. And it isn't just because I spent so many years doing minimum wage jobs, easy, part time jobs, by choice.
Now that is a rediculous statement Tom such a policy would cost jobs if applied in other places. You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept. It is because people in your economy have compensated by tipping. They recognise that some low end jobs offer inadequate compensation.Quote:
nobody works for min wage here in NY for any job. If $15 is a reasonable "living wage " why not make it $25 ;$25 ,$50 ? .
When I tell you that we have a minimum wage of $17, I'm speaking about an economy where tipping is rare and the prerogative of the wealthy. Neither is the minimum wage expected to support a family although in many cases it does because there are also government benefits for low income families. The idea is to have the minimum wage high enough that there is incentive to find employment but many employers also use it as a benchmark
I get $28,800 a year before taxes and that's if they work 5 days a week. That's cool with me just because they can pay taxes, and fend for themselves with, or without kids until something better comes along, or they can do better.
This ain't the 70's where we lived off love, mj, beer, and a boom box. This is a recession, and the jobless recovery is stressing everybody and our institutions to the seams. Maybe it cuts profits but for sure it relieves that expensive safety net burden and also makes better consumers for us to grow. That's how you cut the deficit and add to the wellbeing of us overburdened taxpayers.
yes you increase the spending power of the poor, the people who do spend and not horde. They won't spend their new found wealth in fancy restaurants and upmarket boutiques. Tom's "let em eat cake" attitude appauls me but then I don't expect he has ever done it tough.
I ask Tom to consider this, if a minimum wage is such a problem to industry, how come my country survived the GFC with low unemployment and a high minimum wage and your country with a low minimum wage has high unemployment. It tells me there is a limited correlation between the minimum wage and the availability of employment. Now for the howls of protest, you want to improve your economy, put a cap on profits and executive salaries and link executive salaries as a multiplier of the lowest paid worker. I bet you will see wage levels improve rapidly
I have advocated for tying corporate taxes to the unemployment rate, and can also get onboard with raises for the boss being a raise for the workers. Interesting. But cutting the safety net and not raising wages is a no go for me. I think I have heard congress is good with $10 bucks, but the locals can push for more.
For that to work Tal the higher the unemployment rate the higher the taxes, making them bring back some of those offshore assets, but there are limits. If you do this there must also be a benchmark earnings rate so the higher rates kick in only at higher levels of earnings.
The problem here we we don't want to see any nation export unemployment. It is said the US sneezes and the rest of us catch the flu. We don't want to see a return of protectionism, but I can say, unemployment levels were low in developed countries in the days of protectionism, so let's abandon these inefficient free trade agreements, put back the tarriff barriers and make sure the jobs stay at home. there will still be ample opportunity for imports but some limits will be placed on rabid exploitation
I agree that for some people, the problem is not a lack of skills or education but chronic underemployment. I would suggest that the solution is not to find ways to pay people more than market value for that underemployment, but rather to get the economy working again so that there are opportunities for better jobs. Individuals have to take the reins on this by finding the pockets of opportunity and molding themselves to fit into them. Sorry but the government can't fix this one for you - you have to do it yourself. If there is no job, you create one by starting a business.
My cousin has a disability and two small kids and needs to make a living wage because her immigrant husband does not earn enough to support four people. She started turning discarded, outgrown, worn out and stained clothing into accessories for children - hats, whimsical stuffed animals, hairbands and bows, bowties for little boys. She works when she's able, rests when she's not. Her little cottage internet business is now paying a third of her family's bills, with her husband paying the rest. It is still growing. She has now added weekend craft fairs where she's making huge gains in her earnings. She couldn't find a job that worked for her as a mother and as a disabled person, so she invented one. That's what it might take for some of us.
There are many who overcome the difficult economy and it often does come down to work ethic. My career disappeared seven years ago. I was laid off and nobody else did what my employer did, and my knowledge was so specialized the skills did not transfer well into any jobs I could consider even though I had a degree. In short, I sold blood to hospitals. I could have moved into pharmaceutical sales with that background, but as a single mother with a minor child, the required travel was not an option. I returned to school and became a paralegal. I did take a huge pay cut and worked several years in crappy jobs. I went through a lot of savings and retirement, not ideal but it was what was required of the market and economy. I continued on to earn an advanced degree as well to give myself an advantage in the market to get into better paying firms in a more responsible role. It sucked. I gave up a lot, including my own home, meals out, vacations and more. But nobody owes me a damned thing. It was the reality of my situation and I sucked it up and dealt with it. I'm still paying off the student loans but I bailed myself out - yes, as an in-debt, unemployed single mom.
Now I see my government wanting to take what I've earned, which is just starting to be adequate to allow me to save a bit for retirement and pay off debt, and give it to people who aren't willing to make close to the sacrifices I have and it royally pisses me off. I have known unemployed people who have busted butt and made their job search a full-time occupation, doing what they had to in order to improve skills, bolster their resume, gain more education and do whatever they needed to do - temp work, minimum wage work, contract jobs, career changes and cutting, cutting, cutting expenses to get through the hard times.
Our country cannot afford to support us all as a charitable enterprise. Working people cannot afford to support all the people who don't work or don't take enough initiative as a lasting solution. If you're underemployed, you have to find the up button on the elevator, that's it. You might have to move. You might have to put off having another kid. You might have to rent instead of owning a home. You might have to have a dumb phone instead of a smart phone, or take classes that bore you, or work more hours than you feel you should have to. But I, as a consumer and tax payer who have already done all of this, and continue to sacrifice to get through these hard times, do not owe you $15 an hour to make me a hamburger, or to supplement your upkeep for the rest of your life, or to supplement your personal choices. People, we have to take these responsibilities on ourselves.
Social safety nets should be long term only if the person receiving them cannot improve their circumstances. That would be a case where someone is elderly, or is severely disabled such that they cannot work and will not be able to work in the future. Even disabled people can sometimes work if they change occupations, and most do. Why should a person who hurts their foot tripping on a loading dock who can no longer work as a truck driver get disability for life? How about they get a job in a call-center, or start selling cars? If you have severe down's syndrome and can only work bussing tables, I have no problem supplementing your income as part of the tax base for the rest of your life. That's appropriate. But you know, if you can bus tables, then you should do that.
I do feel that full-time people should have insurance, paid vacation and other reasonable benefits and earn an adequate wage to support themselves in low-skill jobs. However, do not expect to be a full-time Wallmart Cashier and support a family - again, that's a job to have if you are only supporting yourself while you go to school or trade school and get your act together to move forward to a higher pay occupation. While you're in that stage, expect to live somewhere crappy and have too many roomates and each cheap food and buy your clothes second hand - just like every college student, trade school student and intern did to get to the high-pay jobs they have now.
My problem is supplementing the incomes of workers of multi billion dollar companies. That's my whole beef considering local governments already give them millions in tax breaks just to come do business. Do they build there products here, no they don't they go to where 2 bucks a month and long hours are appreciated and when the building falls on the workers, to bad.
Now many think that's an okay business model but replacing good middle class jobs with minimum wage ones that working people have to supplement is not a good way to solve OUR economic problems and needs. Average income is going down, not up, prices and cost or going up not down, so something is way out of balance here.
While it's a very emotional topic the value of a person shouldn't be the job or paycheck they bring home. I reject the whole notion of entry level jobs in the first place as a job is much more than just an experience, it's a necessity. And its honest work, and that has value.
You shouldn't have to help a rich man make his profits by helping him pay his workers.That's pretty crazy to me.
you know nothing about me . while tal was spending the 70s living off love, mj, beer, and a boom box, I was busting my butt working full time while also being a full time student .Quote:
Tom's "let em eat cake" attitude appauls me but then I don't expect he has ever done it tough
Me too. Been working and doing my thing since I was 16.Quote:
you know nothing about me . while tal was spending the 70s living off love, mj, beer, and a boom box, I was busting my butt working full time while also being a full time student
Yes Tom been there done that and had to raise a family with 18% interest rates, etc, etc. none of which is an excuse for not understanding that when you are employed there are minimums associated with the value of work that need to be applied.
However I see among the remarks in this thread a lack of understanding of the present economic circumstances. There was a time when we passed through a golden age, low energy prices, low unemployment and plenty of opportunity. Those days are behind us and we must change our thinking.
We destroyed manufacturing two ways, we sent the industries offshore and we automated and those two things ensured that we would not have the same level of employment for the masses. Not in the mines, not in the factories, not in agriculture but maybe in the service industries. However education also played its part. We have got to stop thinking in terms of working lives of fifty years or even longer, because that is not reality for most of the population. We are about to enter an era of unprecidented levels of disease, of vastly different climate and we need to start thinking about dealing with unemployment by not expanding the number of people in the workforce but contracting it. Lack of education has to become unacceptable, every person will have to undergo training before being allowed to participate in the workforce and society will have to care for those who arn't in the workforce and find something meaningful for them to do.
Why not pay them as much as the government does? Welfare queens have an ecinomic advantage at making 60K in benefits through the welfare system. Thats about $30 an hour. Is that living enough for you? Keep in mind that eating out is a luxury. So when it gets to expensive there are plenty of alternitives to eat besides going out to a food establishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
What percentage of people (and who are they?) getting food stamps AREN'T scamming the system and really need the help?
A few things your missing here. It is Obama that is causing everything to be out of alaignment. He is the one that removed Gasoline and Food from the inflationary calculation in his hopes of making himself look good by holding back inflation. If you want jobs to return and oney to come back to this country and make this economy grow at a rocketing pace then start screaming at your representatives to pass "The Fair Tax". They will flood this country with money if it is passed.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
On the second part of your comment Im trying to figure out how you think any skilled labor can survive without having a labor ladder to climb. All skilled labor is based on a ladder system and that is how that job is judged. Being an apprentise and moving through to journeyman then master has always existed. How can you just equate one persons skill with another when you have knowlage and experience gained in the chosen field ? It makes absolutely no sense.
I know of no such widespread scamming that's been perpetuated unless they are criminals but most who have nothing. Work, to keep the nothing they have and are surprisingly happy to do so. They have dreams and often sacrifice so there kids can have better than they do.
Not saying there are no welfare queens, but not as many as you seem to purport. So your broad disparaging is simply inaccurate. Welfare recipients spend less than two years on the rolls and the expenditure is barely 1% of the budget. Your turn to look up the facts.
Here you go. Welfare benefits at thier minimums.
The Work versus Welfare Trade-Off: 2013 | Cato Institute
Another report also:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapoth...-in-35-states/
I am talking about raising the federal minimum wage DAD, not reconfiguring the work ladder. Localities and states are already doing it. Workers are organizing too, and that usually means higher wages. I don't know why you think billion dollar companies that pay low wages and are given tax breaks to do business need even more tax breaks. That makes no sense. Sound more like robbery, extortion, or blackmail to me.Quote:
How can you just equate one persons skill with another when you have knowlage and experience gained in the chosen field ? It makes absolutely no sense.
Extracting profits at the expense of people is more criminal than what a welfare queen does to scam system. You are advocating more corporate welfare.
Thanks for the links, I have actually read them but lets cut to the chase, instead of cutting benefits, raise the wage and we wouldn't need welfare nor would there be an incentive to stay on it would there?
Then the net wouldn't be a hammock as so many conservative make it to be then we can address corporate welfare that the so called job creators are hooked on. The obvious bias of both your links is perpetrating high profits, and cheap labor. There is no reasonable balance between people and profits.
Pass the fair tax. You close ALL loopholes. As far as raising the minimum wage what you do is raise the base wage that other wages are tweaked from. If you just raise minimum wage and try to freeze all other wage platforms then you create a world where no one can live. You want to give them a raise? Pass the fair tax.
When you get enough republican votes together have at it as this bill has been stalled in committee for a year by your own leaders. Jacking up the price of goods and huge tax breaks for high earners is a recipe for disaster but let me know when the vote on this old idea.
You must think every business in the country is a mega-corporation . I wonder if you've considered the impact of a higher min wage on the small business and how it will affect their hiring practice ,and even if it will impact their ability to stay in business.Quote:
I don't know why you think billion dollar companies that pay low wages and are given tax breaks to do business need even more tax breaks. That makes no sense. Sound more like robbery, extortion, or blackmail to me.
right on!!Quote:
Pass the fair tax.
Even you have admitted many times the capitalistic business model is broken. But you rather continue it than fix it. And stop comparing mega companies with low wages to small businesses that are both diverse and local. Apples and oranges Tom, and you know it.
Hello again, tom:
I'm a small businessman.. The prices I pay for goods and labor have been going up for a LONG, LONG time. If THAT was gonna put me out of business, it would have happened a LONG time ago.Quote:
I wonder if you've considered the impact of a higher min wage on the small business and how it will affect their hiring practice ,and even if it will impact their ability to stay in business.
But, you bring up an interesting issue...
MOST of the fast food workers are ALSO on Medicaid and food stamps.. That means that you and I are subsidizing fast food workers.. As a right winger, you know that kind of governmental interference artificially keeps the prices of labor low, thereby allowing these companies to stay in business...
IF these companies CANNOT survive WITHOUT a government subsidy, they DESERVE to go broke.. Doncha think?
Now, I'm NOT an economist, and I'm not privy to McDonald's books.. But, I'm willing to bet that an increase of $.25 CENTS per burger would BE born by the burger consuming public WITHOUT a word, and it would be MORE than enough to raise their minimum wage to $15/hr.
Let's just take a BILLION burgers a year... How much is $.25 CENTS times a BILLION??
excon
You're going to have to give some stats on the claim that most fast food workers are on food stamps and Medicaid. I don't believe that for a minute. I already gave BLS statistics that show half of the 4.7% of minimum wage earners are under 25 and that includes every segment of the workforce such as retail, not just fast food.
P.S. All those outraged fast food workers? Seems most of them went to work while paid union protesters hollered and threw rocks.
What We Saw at NYC's Fast Food Strike - Reason.com
That's what unions do. Raise the standard of living for workers. What would YOUR boss pay you without the prevailing wages that UNIONS fought for?
You can be sure that when just about everyone is carrying a fancy printed sign, all alike, that unions are behind it.
I heard the other night (on news about Detroit's bankruptcy) that the AFL CIO is sitting on over 4 billion in trust assets and 100 million in cash. Gee. Ugh.
as I already stated ,the unions stand to gain the most as contracts are typically tied to the min wage rate . That is the real reason for this manufactured issue .....well that and the horrible story of the Obamacare launch and all the lies by the adm over it.
And about the price of those burgers ? If it wasn't for the dollar menu that they've recently adopted I'd never frequent their franchises.
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