Ask Me Help Desk - Science or Religion

Hello again, clete:

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This is a contensious issue but the theory of evolution doesn't stand the test of fact and should not be taught as fact but as an explanation of some observations.

You MUST know why I was asking about vaccinations, don't you? That's because an ENTIRE field science is BASED on evolution, and it's called BIOLOGY. And, biology is the basis of modern MEDICINE. You don't think they base that on an OBSERVATION, do you?? If you do, it must be TERRIFYING to go to a doctors office.

I know these facts won't penetrate your religious shield. It just won't let you see the truth..

Excon

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This is a contensious issue but the theory of evolution doesn't stand the test of fact and should not be taught as fact but as an explanation of some observations.

Why should we take religion as fact? There's no evidence there either.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, clete:
You MUST know why I was asking about vaccinations, don't you?? That's because an ENTIRE field science is BASED on evolution, and it's called BIOLOGY. And, biology is the basis of modern MEDICINE. You don't think they base that on an OBSERVATION, do you???? If you do, it must be TERRIFYING to go to a doctors office.

I know these facts won't penetrate your religious shield. It just won't let you see the truth..

excon

Ex you too are confusing observations with fact. Biology is observation. As little as two centuries ago they were cutting up dead bodies to observe how they might function. If doctors knew what they were doing in every instance all disease would be eradicated by now. Right now my doctor tells me I have a condition called shingles consisting of severe head pain and pins and needles confined to the left hemisphere of my head. Medical science suggests he may be wrong so he is going to have me have a CT scan. If his knowledge were perfect based on a study of biology he would have cured me by now, he hasn't, just treated the symptoms with limited success. What I know is sometimes they make the right call based on observation, sometimes they do not and I don't expect them to perform miracles but to apply the knowledge they have

My religious point of view doesn't interfere with me consulting a doctor and by the way this doctor shares my religious views

Why it's so hard to get the flu vaccine supply right - NBC News.com

Measles outbreak tied to Texas megachurch sickens 21 - NBC News.com

And this proves what?

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Originally Posted by paraclete

and this proves what?

That children are getting sick and even dying unnecessarily because their parents refused to get them vaccinated.

Vaccine Coverage High in U.S., but Measles Outbreaks a Concern: CDC

That diseases can spread without vaccinations. DUH!!

Shooting the Wheeze: Whooping Cough Vaccine Falls Short of Previous Shot

Diseases can spread with vaccinations too. Point being the science isn't perfect. I don't agree with religious people undermining public health programs without very good reason, but vaccinations have proven effective against many diseases even to the point of eradication and if extended into the third world would make a significant difference. I didn't appreciate bringing back whooping cough when I visited Pakistan a few years ago and I had been vaccinated before I went

You see I can take a fundamentalist view on many things and a pragmatist view on others because I don't try to allege that I have the whole truth on all matters

Religion is being treated here as if it were a single monolithic idea. It's not. There are many religions, often, as all the world knows, denying the truth of other religions.

Religion, any aspect of it, should not be taught in public schools (see the First Amendment).

Creationism, or ID, is hardly a theory in any scientific sense. It is a belief - a religious belief. The proper venue for teaching this is the home and/or the church/synagogue/mosque, etc.

Religion at its best has lasted for millennia because, overall, it is a tremendous force for good.

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Originally Posted by Athos

Religion is being treated here as if it were a single monolithic idea. It's not. There are many religions, often, as all the world knows, denying the truth of other religions.

Religion, any aspect of it, should not be taught in public schools (see the First Amendment).

Such an idea is unique to america and quite at odds with its foundation. Your constitution deals with the setting up of a state religion, that is the exclusion of other religions, not the teaching of religion

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Creationism, or ID, is hardly a theory in any scientific sense. It is a belief - a religious belief. The proper venue for teaching this is the home and/or the church/synagogue/mosque, etc.

Religion at its best has lasted for millennia because, overall, it is a tremendous force for good.

Creationism is not intelligent design. Intelligent design recognises the qualities that make evolution unlikely and therefore comes from scientific observation.

Religion has lasted because man has recognised that there is an intelligence other than his own at work

Hello again, clete:

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Your constitution deals with the setting up of a state religion, that is the exclusion of other religions, not the teaching of religion

An employee of the state teaching religion is an endorsement of that religion, and tantamount to "establishing" it. The state can't DO that. There's no two ways around it.

Excon

Ex you take definitions to extreme. If that state employee teaches one religion to the exclusion of all others you may be correct but if such teaching is not endoresed by the state you are not. What one person does cannot be interpretted as an act of the state. It becomes an act of the state if the state says teach this to the exclusion of all other views and if it does this with evolution it establishes a state religion, a secular religion. So what you would have us do is in fact unconstitutional

The state does not endorse a religion by teaching what the religion believes .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

The state does not endorse a religion by teaching what the religion believes .

Exactly

Hello again,

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The state does not endorse a religion by teaching what the religion believes .

I would agree, if the state taught what ALL religions believe... You could call that class RELIGION... It would be GOOD...

But, if you teach it in a SCIENCE class, and it's only ONE religions viewpoint, it's clearly a REBUTTAL to science. That's BAD!

Excon

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If we teach Creationism in science class, when those kids graduate, will they know how to MAKE a rocket ship, or PRAY for one?

If science ignores evidence that contradicts its dogma that isn't science either. And by the way, you really should study up on and gain some respect for Christian thinkers and their scientific contributions. We're not stupid.

Hello again, Steve:

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We're not stupid.

No, but you're part of the borg.

Let me ask you this.. Let's say there's a guy, whose opinion you really REALLY respect, and then you find out he BELIEVES in the tooth fairy. Would you STILL respect him? Would it invalidate his opinion on, say, Global Warming?

I knew a guy named Werner Erhardt. People said he KNEW how to live life. We should listen and pay him money. Then we found out he beat his wife. Would knowing that INVALIDATE what he said about how to live life?

Excon

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

If science ignores evidence that contradicts its dogma that isn't science either. And by the way, you really should study up on and gain some respect for Christian thinkers and their scientific contributions. We're not stupid.

They took many positions the church didn't like back then, and now. Many paid a price of retribution from the church. The church doesn't like science that contradicts its dogma.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:
No, but you're part of the borg.

excon

You will be assimulated into the collective, guess what Ex you have been assimulated, you have hive thinking

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Originally Posted by talaniman

They took many positions the church didn't like back then, and now. Many paid a price of retribution from the church. The church doesn't like science that contradicts its dogma.

And so them bucking the church doesn't speak to their favor to you guys? This ridiculous meme that people of faith are anti-science idiots is not only pathetic, it contradicts the data - which is in itself illogical and anti-science. If it wasn't for Christian and other religious scientists we wouldn't be where we are today, and as I've noted MANY times here, our own education system was largely the work of the church, so show a little respect people.

I got no problem with scientists who were/are Christians, myself, just the churches who persecute the scientist. Just the loony's who want to replace the growing scientific approach with dogma, left or right, the religion doesn't matter.

It's a myth that the church persecuted scientists .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

it's a myth that the church persecuted scientists .

Galileo?

Galileo was not taken to task for his science.If Galileo had kept the discussion within the boundaries of astronomy (i.e. predicting planetary motions) and had not claimed physical truth for the heliocentric theory, the issue would not have escalated . Instead it was he who tried to expand his theory into the theological. And he was not "persecuted " either way.

[Galileo] was sentenced to formal imprisonment at the pleasure of the Inquisition.[61] On the following day this was commuted to house arrest, which he remained under for the rest of his life.

Galileo Galilei - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes he was under house arrest and treated like a king. What does this prove ? He was not 'persecuted' for his science .He crossed the church over his expanding it to theology . By the way ;his science was way off too ;unless you believe the sun is the center of the universe.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

the sun is the center of the universe.

The Earth certainly isn't (Church belief).

Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy", namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.[60].

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Originally Posted by tomder55

yes he was under house arrest and treated like a king.

And you'd enjoy that too?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And you'd enjoy that too?

Lots of distractions here as usual. The fact remains that the attacks on (Christians mostly) religious as being anti-science or dufuses that think they can pray a plane into existence are not based in reality and in fact, are illogical and disrespectful to the contributions to science and education in general by people of faith.

Hello again, Steve:

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dufuses that think they can pray a plane into existence are not based in reality and in fact, are illogical and disrespectful to the contributions to science and education in general by people of faith.

It certainly MIGHT be..

But, in YOUR reality, the earth was created in 7 days. THAT'S illogical and disrespectful on its face, too. Or, am I mistaken about what YOU believe? If that's NOT your reality, why do you want to teach children that it IS??

What am I to take from your insistence that religion be taught as an alternative to evolution?? What message are you trying to plant in a child's mind? If you teach him that God made the world in 7 days, why WOULDN'T he believe that God could build the rocket ship, if only he prayed hard enough? Why would that be a reach? By teaching creationism or IT, whatever you're calling it these days, you DO want the children to BELIEVE it, don't you?? I don't mean just CONSIDER it, but because he was taught in SCHOOL, to BELIEVE it ABSOLUTELY...

How is that going to further his rocket ship building?? Tell me, please. There must be a reason...

Excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:
It certainly MIGHT be..

But, in YOUR reality, the earth was created in 7 days. THAT'S illogical and disrespectful on its face.

What am I to take from your insistence that religion be taught as an alternative to evolution??? What message are you trying to plant in a child's mind?? If you teach him that God made the world in 7 days, why WOULDN'T he believe that God could build the rocket ship, if only he prayed hard enough?? Why would that be a reach?? By teaching creationism or IT, whatever you're calling it these days, you DO want the children to BELIEVE it, don't you??? I don't mean just CONSIDER it, but because he was taught in SCHOOL, to BELIEVE it ABSOLUTELY... How is that going to further his rocket ship building???? Tell me, please. There must be a reason...

excon

My reality is I don't believe anyone has PROVEN they're right, but I prefer to remain OPEN minded.

I find it more far-fetched to believe you and I evolved from nothingness by pure chance than it is to believe an intelligent God created it all in 7 days or 7 billion years. That's the kicker to me, you mock us for believing there had to be a guiding hand while you believe organic molecules came out of nothingness and randomly mutated until they became sentient beings capable of inventing rocket ships.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The Earth certainly isn't (Church belief).

Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy", namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.[60].

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"One does not read in the Gospel that the Lord said: ‘I will send you the Paraclete who will teach you about the course of the sun and moon.’ For he willed to make them Christians, not mathematicians."

St Augustine

Hello again, Steve:

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That's the kicker to me, you mock us for believing there had to be a guiding hand

I DON'T mock you for BELIEVING what you do. I mock you because you want to teach RELIGION to my children.

Excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:
I DON'T mock you for BELIEVING what you do.

I saw the picture with your OP.

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I mock you because you want to teach RELIGION to my children.

There's nothing wrong with teaching about religion, but I believe that point's been made. I guess you'll have to point out what public schools are teaching creationism or ID as scientific fact for me to get too worked up about your outrage.

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Originally Posted by excon

But, in YOUR reality, the earth was created in 7 days. THAT'S illogical and disrespectful on its face, too. Or, am I mistaken about what YOU believe? If that's NOT your reality, why do you want to teach children that it IS??

Whether it was 6 days or 6 epochs or 6 Billion years that is a question of intrepretation of Scripture and is not the point of religion anyway. Scripture tells us that with God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day. A thousand years is an indeterminate period. You want to seize on one aspect and invalidate everything into a Godless universe with man at its centre. And Yes Ex misquoting Scripture is disrespectful

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What am I to take from your insistence that religion be taught as an alternative to evolution?? What message are you trying to plant in a child's mind? If you teach him that God made the world in 7 days, why WOULDN'T he believe that God could build the rocket ship, if only he prayed hard enough? Why would that be a reach? By teaching creationism or IT, whatever you're calling it these days, you DO want the children to BELIEVE it, don't you?? I don't mean just CONSIDER it, but because he was taught in SCHOOL, to BELIEVE it ABSOLUTELY...

How is that going to further his rocket ship building?? Tell me, please. There must be a reason...

Excon

Why would a child believe God would build a rocket ship he doesn't need, but God just might inspire that child so that he would become the foremost engineer in astroscience.
I was taught all these things that you consider dumb and yet I interact with the world and have had a successful career. It didn't cause me to become weird although from a moral standpoint I stood apart from some of my companions.

All you prove here Ex is you know nothing about God, not that you know anything about science either

Hey Ex the big bang theory or "evolution" is just another flawed computer model. We could actually be sitting inside a black hole. If we were that would explain a lot of things

Has the Big Bang theory been busted? | Space, Military and Medicine | News.com.au

What happens to your religion of science and evolution now?

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:
It certainly MIGHT be..

But, in YOUR reality, the earth was created in 7 days. THAT'S illogical and disrespectful on its face, too. Or, am I mistaken about what YOU believe?? If that's NOT your reality, why do you want to teach children that it IS???

What am I to take from your insistence that religion be taught as an alternative to evolution??? What message are you trying to plant in a child's mind?? If you teach him that God made the world in 7 days, why WOULDN'T he believe that God could build the rocket ship, if only he prayed hard enough?? Why would that be a reach?? By teaching creationism or IT, whatever you're calling it these days, you DO want the children to BELIEVE it, don't you??? I don't mean just CONSIDER it, but because he was taught in SCHOOL, to BELIEVE it ABSOLUTELY...

How is that going to further his rocket ship building???? Tell me, please. There must be a reason...

excon

Where are you getting the god made the earth is 7 days? I don't know anyone that believes that. But from the bible to science they do agree on how we got here. The only argument is how it started.

Quite a leap of FAITH to BELIEVE something came from nothing .