Whose propganda are you sniffing, WMD requires organisation it requires government
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Whose propganda are you sniffing, WMD requires organisation it requires government
1. The rebels had control of areas with stockpiles
2. the Syrian civil war is rapidly resembling the Spanish Civil war with all it's outside interventions .
Again ;what purpose would it serve for Assad to use chemical weapons against kids when he's winnning the war ? It would be a propaganda victory for the rebels however given the fact that a UN mission is arriving in the country .
The last time it was alleged ,the world took the report at face value even as the UN investigation team leader, Carla del Ponte in May stated there was evidence the rebels had used chemical agents, including Sarin gas. So the pattern has been established .
There are of course cut throats in the conflict who routinely attack civilians and children . For a time the al Nusra Front held 200 Kurds hostage at Tal Abyad and Ras al-Ain .There were reports of children being decapitated there before the Kurds retook the towns .
I wouldn't trust either side at the moment and sadly many more innocents will die, but rushing in and investing American lives is not the smart thing to do. It's a fact that the rebels are as capable of gassing people as Assad is.
Assad probibly did it... but I'm also leary of some of the rebel groups... at least one has ties to Al Queda and other anti-american groups.
The red line has been crossed twice now and American troops are massed on the Syrian /Jordanian border . What better wag the dog moment !
According to the Slimes ;It was not clear whether the team sent to Syria by the United Nations would be able to investigate the new reported attacks. The team arrived Sunday after months of negotiations with the Syrian government and is authorized to visit only three predetermined sites
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/wo...anted=all&_r=0
So what we are supposed to believe is that while a UN team is on the ground investigating chemical attacks ,the Assad regime launched one .
Both sides are probably guilty of many atrocities.
We have to come to the point here, it doesn't matter who did it, fact is civilian populations are at risk and if that imagimary red line has been crossed than it is up to the world to deal with it and sanctions aren't going to cut it, someone has to get their hands dirty, seeing as Turkey is on one border sounds like a job for NATOQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
China and Russia should be at the forefront of this debacle, should have been long ago.
You think the Ruskies aren't ?
They got these from both Russia AND Saddam Hussein. The Easter Bunny didn't bring them.
They don't get their hands dirty, just have someoneelse do their work for them, no, if you want it to stop you will need to do something but you will need far more than a few hundred troops, as soon as you crossed the border every hand would be against you. Where are all those clandestine operators you are famous for or has Benghazi broke a spoke in their wheelQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Here is the deal with Russia and China. Assad is Russia's ally . The Russians wish it weren't so ,but they have no choice. Their access to the Mediterranean is from the port of Tartus. They also have Iran on their border and would prefer that the Iranians don't stir up the huge Russian Muslim population. They would work with us for a transition away from Assad ,but they have as many concerns about radical jihadistan as we do and do not want to see them take over Syria. We on the other hand appear to be supporting radical jihadistan in Syria.
There was a time where they would've cooperated with us... then came Libya.
The emperor went to the UN and convinced the Russians and the Chinese to approve a NATO led 'no fly zone' for the purpose of protecting civilians against Q Daffy's air assets . They agreed under the condition that the NATO forces weren't used for regime change.
Well we know how that worked out .
The Russians and the Chinese will not cooperate with us in Syria.
No they won't cooperate because you aggressively pursue your ideology and in so doing push them out of their traditional markets, we were even with you and we were pushed out of our traditional markets. Yes if you take over Syria the Russians loose another cold war ally and of course that naval base. You need a proxy to do your bidding, Turkey has interests in stopping this conflict, convince them to act in their own and humanitarian interests
Erdogan has his own visions of an Ottoman restoration . Yeah he'd love for us to help him more than we've already done. (Libyan arms and jihadists funneled into Turkey to infiltrate into Syria. Since the jihadists have also attacked the Kurdish population in Syria ,a jihadist takeover would also served his purpose well on that front.
My position is that the only vested interest we have in Syria is the security of Israel.
I can't see Syria returning to its former level for a long time, your interests lie in not allowing a vacuum to form in which a new jihadist state forms. Even though you don't like his politics, the government you have is better than the government you don't have. Iraq taught you thatQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
That's because Obama wanted out before a non-Islamic government could be put in place... and we all know Obama is pro-everything Muslim and anti-anything Christian.
Some of us learned the lessons of doing things halfassed like Vietnam... but apparently Harvard graduates aren't intelligent enough to comprehend that lesson.
You don't elect political science graduates to the Presidency so don't expect geo-political savvy. In Syria the idea that a non-muslim government could result from what is happening is ridiculous, Assard is a Shiia, even backed by Hezbollah in Lebanon, the opposing forces appear to be Sunni but who knows. You didn't learn because your intervenion in Iraq was halfarsed, you got a military result and a civil disaster. I could imagine the same thing happening in Syria, Obama has so far had the good sense to avoid this
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
You don't have to be a political science major.. or even a history major... Obama like me was finishing Jr. High and entering Sr. High when we puled out of Saigon... so we grew up watching it on the evening news...
Obama is only a few months older than me... so we were in the same grades in school. So I know what he would have seen as well at the time.
Iraq wasn't really halfassed... but it became so when Obama got elected telling the terrorists and insurgents that if they waited a little longer they could have everything to themselves.
After the 2007 surge Iraq was well on it's way to becoming a peaceful nation... Sunni and the Shiite living relatively peacefully... no car bombs, no suicide bombers.Quote:
Even though you don't like his politics, the government you have is better than the government you don't have. Iraq taught you that
Then the emperor and Maliki bungled the details of treaty that would've left a modest US security presence . Now Maliki is holed up in the Green Zone as his country descends into the law of factions ,tribes ,and jihadist gang rule .
Now weren't you just saying that the US and NATO should lead an intervention against "the government you have " ? I thought I saw that . This isn't easy for me because I'd dearly love to see Assad and his Iranian patrons defeated . But what we are backing there is virtually the same people who attacked us on 9-11.
Exactly, politics makes strange bedfellows particularly when you take sides in an insurgency
One more point. Sarin gas has been used in the past as a terrorist weapon. It was used in the Japanese subway system and jihadists have been caught manufacturing it .
Iraq arrests five in 'al-Qaeda chemical weapons plot' - Telegraph
In May, Turkish police arrested 12 suspected Al Nusra fighters. They were seized in southern Turkey. They were caught red-handed with a two gm cylinder of sarin nerve gas.
Turkey arrests 12 in raids on 'terrorist' organization | Reuters
But it is still speculation right now that it was sarin that was used. An alternate theory also not confirmed is that the jihadists used a mix of CL17 ,a chlorine concoction easily made from swimming pool chemicals.Jihadists used it in March in Syria.
Syria chemical weapons: finger pointed at jihadists - Telegraph
There will be nothing definitive unless an independent inspection of the site and autopsies are performed. But it is premature to make the claim that the Assad regime has pulled the trigger . Like I said ;I don't believe it credible because the regime has the most to lose if it is found to have used chemical weapons.
Whose side are you on this is nothing short of state sponsored terrorism, the attack was delivered by artillery, that is army not poorly armed rebels. You think there is some sort of plot here but what there is is defiance of the norms. We had independent inspectors stuffing about in Iraq for years and they found nothing, but the rumours persist and now Syria is doing what Saddam didQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
You have no evidence of that except for some jihadist manufactured video. I would not put it past either side so I'll wait for someone to prove it one way or the other . All I see now is this clamor to rush in now .Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
I don't get you . We went to war because Saddam had WMD and used them... and you opposed it . Now ,with no more evidence than a jihadi made video you want us to rush in.
I'm taking a 'what's in America's best interest ' view of this . Until I'm sure that handing over the country to the so called rebels is in America's interest I'd rather we sit this one out.
We can see why the Messiah is backing the Musim brotherhood terrorists... family ties.
Obama's Brother's Non-Profit Tied to Genocidal Muslim Dictator and Terrorists | FrontPage Magazine
He is?Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
He (Obama) has been badmouthing the Egyptian Military... in favor of Morissi...Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Even after the Morissi troglodytes have burned over 60 churches... and murdered how many Coptic Christians... over 100,000 CHristians have fled Egypt out for fear of being killed by the Muslim Brotherhood.
We said this was going to happen before they stole that election... and there was plenty of fraud that happened.
You didn't go to war when Saddam used WMD, years later you used it as an excuse because you couldn't find his WMD. What did you get a broken nation which still is not stable. Look, the people who are at risk have to act, that is those in the surrounding countries but rest assured Tom if the rebels win those WMD will wind up on your doorstep, and your country is backing them. You are not sitting this one out, you are a guilty of state sponsored terrorism as anyone elseQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
When we went to war against Saddam Hussein we had overwhelming support from the civilized nations of the world... your own included.
You had the support of the dupes, people who believed you wouldn't lie to them. Iraq war was unpopular here pursued by an americanophile who just happened to be in Washington on 9/11. We gained nothing from it, not even the hope of security. Look Smoothy we know these things are all about you, the rest of us don't count until you want someone to agree with you. You ultimately invaded Iraq, if you wait as long to intervene in Syria I expect the country will be devistated, fit only for the bulldozer
And while you guys analyze the middle east, which has been around longer than most civilized societies, Russia and China sit back and punk everyone else out. They always have. That's the true key to the middle east.
Russia and China don't really care either. Worst thing that was ever done was to give a veto to any member of the UN security council, it neutered the organisation.
If we have common sense we won't look for excuses to intervene and we won't supply either side with arms. It is nasty that hundreds of civilians have been killed and the act is reprehensible
I addressed them. We asked and got their cooperation for a no fly zone in Libya for civilian protection .Then we used the assets to help over throw Q Daffy . Neither of them will cooperate . China has been violating sanctions with Iran... so you know which side they fall on . Russia would not mind an Assad overthrow by the right faction. But they will not cooperate with us if we are supporting jihadistan. Other than that ,Syria is their only ally in the region (caveat... we have opened the door for the possibility of Russia getting it's foot in the door in Egypt thanks to America's implied support of the Brotherhood... yes WG ,unfortunately it's true) .Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
China and Russia care a great deal, and its in there interest they have a friendly to the Syria, and even the Saudi's recognize that the Arab Spring could engulf them too... again. Be nice to just sit this one out, but Russia has a heavy investment in Syria already and it will grow even larger.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
There is no evidence we support the brotherhood, just the opposite, as we have called for their inclusion but not dominance. The important thing to remember I we have no leverage for influence over Egypt, I mean NONE, since our contributions to the military is minuscule and the gap would be made up easily, and quickly by oil producers of the region.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I see little difference in the brotherhoods agenda and actions since the fall of Mubarack, and the right wing fringe in America, with the only difference being the depth of their barbarism.
Egypt is a conflict we can stay out of too, since the military is the only viable institution operating in that country. Yes maybe it was a coup, so what, the people wanted it, and they got it. That's a good thing to me, and we should silently support it.
You can bet that Israel does and so do Egypt's regional partners. The whole idea of fundamentalist theocratic government is an absurd notion that will be rejected by the many, even here in America.
There is plenty of evidence that there is in fact bipartisan support for the Brotherhood. Lets start with the Repubics like John McCain who in 2012 went to Cairo before their elections to meet with Brotherhood reps but did not bother meeting with other more democratic opposition groups . McCain and Goober Lindsey Graham have called jailed Brotherhood leaders "political prisoners" ,and has called for their release .
He has insisted on calling the ouster of Morsi and the Brotherhood a "coup " and US Egypt Ambassador Anne Patterson has implied the same. In reality, the so called "coup" consisted of thirty million Egyptians taking to the streets to oust the Brotherhood. Patterson is trying to get the new Egyptian government to include members of the Brotherhood in any new cabinet.
Then how about the fact that the Obots made a very public announcement of aid to Egypt after the Morsi "election" ,but announced that they were suspending military aid after the military made their move.
Then consider more recently that State Dept rep Jen Psaki said the detention of Mubarack was an internal matter that the US had no position on .Then in the same presser called for the release of Morsi .
Does any of this offer smoking gun proof ? Nope .The emperor holds his cards close to the vest always giving himself enough ambiguity to deny any charge leveled . I guess what is most important is that on the streets of Cairo ,the perception is that the US supports the terrorist organization ,in the ranks of the military they feel betrayed by the US ;and those perceptions will dictate policy with any future Egyptian government . That is why Russia is making headway and will reestablish a relationship that they have not had with the country since the days of Nasser.
Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
So what, how does disadvantage you, do you loose a market for your goods and armaments? There is a lot of bleeding heart politics here just an opportunity to say to the other side you don't care and if action is taken it will be criticised
Here we have it being said you don't support the brotherhood and yet you were giving military aid to brotherhood led government.It may be nothing to you but it is a lot to them, an endorsement. When will you get your head out of the proberbial and understand that your stuffing about has been at the bottom of most conflicts in the last hundred years.Quote:
There is no evidence we support the brotherhood, just the opposite, as we have called for their inclusion but not dominance. The important thing to remember I we have no leverage for influence over Egypt, I mean NONE, since our contributions to the military is minuscule and the gap would be made up easily, and quickly by oil producers of the region.
I see little difference in the brotherhoods agenda and actions since the fall of Mubarack, and the right wing fringe in America, with the only difference being the depth of their barbarism.
Egypt is a conflict we can stay out of too, since the military is the only viable institution operating in that country. Yes maybe it was a coup, so what, the people wanted it, and they got it. That's a good thing to me, and we should silently support it.
You can bet that Israel does and so do Egypt's regional partners. The whole idea of fundamentalist theocratic government is an absurd notion that will be rejected by the many, even here in America.
The arabs don't think like you, they have no history of democracy, they expect to be ruled by a king whether he has the title or not. Frankily I'm not concerned about Israel they are strong enough to look after themselves
Until you understand the difference between the new Morisi government, and the military then you will never understand the nuance in how to deal with either. And deal you must so don't get your undies in a dither over news reports.
None of us is privy to the behind the scene machination of governments. Nor are we who express our opinions in a position to effect policy from the informed(?) officials we elected. The mistake of the righties is you guys only see things through the narrow microcosm of your own ideaology that restricts you from seeing the complexities of the differing faction and coalitions lust for change, power, and influence.
At least Clete you recognize that this is a region that has no clue what freedom is, how to get it, or maintain it when and if they do, and no leaders have emerged to show them. And you should understand that as an American, shaping the world is what we do, because we can or will and the pups on the side can yelp all they want to because we all know they have their own issue to deal with.
At least you know what side you should be on, no matter what your opinion of us is don't you? Never assume you know what our national interests even are, as your opinion is duly noted. We do seem to be everywhere, but you would be to if you could be, pursuing your own national interest.
Nothing wrong with that. Helps to get out of your own neighborhood to see how other live. Gives you a better perspective than the tabloids about who you are living with.
Tal when you get out of your own neighbourhood you have to do it with different eyes otherwise it is better to stay where you are doing your own thing. The only thing we try to shape is our own destiny and we ask others to respect that and not drag us into their conflicts. When I look at the news today the only thing I see about Egypt or Syria is politicians grandstanding, even this far away it's worth a political plug or two.
So Tal, go shape the world someplace else
Looks like the emperor is going to make a move against Syria... think he'll bother to try to get congressional approval ?
Nah.. the Messiah is above being questioned by mere moral men...
I Think he will let the congress dither so like Pilate he can wash his hands while appearing caring and compassionateQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
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