It also sounds like you've given them choice, which is what so many others are fighting against.
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It also sounds like you've given them choice, which is what so many others are fighting against.
If I were younger and livelier, I would go to under-performing public schools to figure out why they are that way, and then find ways to change that. Is it the curriculum? The teachers? The lack of expectations? Poor parent involvement?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
I had a friend who taught remedial English in a community college. He was horrified by the dearth of writing and grammar skills displayed by his students. No one (not even the bright students) knows how to create an outline any longer or can diagram a sentence. I remember being taught those two things in a NC public school's 3rd grade (Yay, Mrs. Moose! -- yep, that was her name). Those two skills saved the day for me many a time.
We aren't fighting against choice, at least I am not, just acknowledge that some have choices and some do not. My premise was in the question at the beginning, what of the kid who lose the lottery for those choice schools or fail to be accepted in those that are full?
But I also take issue with the broad premise that public schools don't educate, because even with the data that says some fall short on the tests there are still those that exceed in the not so great schools and many more with special, and specific needs, some outside the class room that cannot be addressed in the class room.
A voucher means little to those that have no where to use it, and is unfair without a fair means test either. To ignore the kids that don't win a lottery at a good school is making losers of them and they must be supported in some ways. How can we NOT?
And my question is unanswered, why deny choice to those who have a chance to do better? You say you aren't against choice but if everyone can't have it then no one should?
I am with WG, identify and solve the problems in public schools. I thought I was clear here.
Even if private schools education students to a higher standard. This so called higher standard is still not good enough. As pointed out by some people here you are way down the ladder when it comes to the basics. More private schools that teach to this a better standard still won't do enough to get you very far up the ladder.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
In my view what is required is national and international benchmarks and this can only be achieved through some type of national curriculum. Educational relativism may have worked in the past but it is inadequate for the modern world.
We do struggle with states having different standards, procedures, policies, and approaches, and fiscal considerations.
Congratulations .I hope a similar model is adopted . I know that standardized testing is in part an attempt to make teachers accountable . I see no such effort on a national basis to make the school systems and the administrators accountable . I agree it is not a matter of wealth . I have seen innovation improve student performance in some of the poorest school systems . Michelle Rhee's efforts in the DC districts were very positive. I'm assuming that you are in a decentralized 'Magnet School'.Quote:
Originally Posted by teacherjenn4
In my humble opinion ,school uniforms should be mandatory . If kids want to wear "colors " to help them identify then let them wear their school colors.
States with some of your so called higher standards are failing their students at higher rates .Did you not see the op ? NY spends as much per student and claims to have some of the highest standards in the country . Still stuck on this nation standards nonsense I see. If the problem is basal then we have a long way to go . Throwing money at it doesn't solve the problem We could start with teachers being educated in the subject matter they will teach instead of going to higher education to learn teaching concepts .Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
America's Teachers Are Sharing Their Low Grades With America's Children - Forbes
Back in the '60s, the teachers college I went to gave us a lot of theory courses, but little practical stuff. At least all of us had had good teachers ourselves and were very literate. We had asked for courses on classroom management and were told, "No, it will all come clear when you teach."Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Nowadays, too many teachers had an average to poor education (or they weren't paying attention). I remember some of the stories my younger son told me about some of his teachers who couldn't spell, didn't know parts of speech, didn't know how to assign material or write tests, and generally slacked off (probably just like they did as students). The questions that get posted on this site say a lot about education in general.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Tom, I looked back through the posts. Tal has said nothing about national standards. The only replies that make reference in this area have come from Teacher Jenn and myself. Especially me.
Are you trying to avoid our posts?
You are free to respond to my observation regardless of who I addressed them to.
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I though that might get your attention.
I am appalled as you are about how the poor kids are treated in the bastion of liberalism, but it's a national problem not confined, or unique to just New York, or liberals. Seems to me the income disparities has more to do with having better choices than the politics of education. Privatizing education is just the latest right wing idea that makes commodities of kids, and shifts the money from poor kids to rich guys with no better results.
Matt Damon is too rich to send his kids to public school as are all the rich and famous and a lousy example of the choice debate. Feeding the idealogical divide does nothing to find the collective solutions.
I believe that was the point of the thread, national standards have only resulted in even lower scores. The problem is much more than that, public schools are a 'liberal bastion' as even Tal acknowledges and the usual answer is to throw more money at it and fight choice tooth and nail keeping kids in failing schools.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuttyd
Damon is the perfect example, choice for me but not for thee.
Chicago Public has closed 49 schools, making students walk farther (through bad neighborhoods) to new schools, creating larger populations in those schools, causing all sorts of anxiety in students and their parents, and did not even think to address the problems in the closed schools (many of which were borderline and had potential for being fixed and were not always financial problems).
And why is Chicago broke?
That's NOT what I said, or even implied. Try to be accurate even if you have to reread it. It's more complex than just National Standards because as we have seen how its implemented is different in every district, and state. City, or rural.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Because the politicians of both parties put money in their own pockets and in business connections' pockets instead of where it should go. Thank goodness I don't live in Cook County!Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
He has money and more choices, you get a voucher, and hope you can use it. If you can't..?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Don't think democrat and republican, think rich and poor. Which are YOU?
A national control of curriculum is highly suspect of becoming a national control of ideas. One size doesn't fit all ;even at the local level. To try to gage performance on a nation level has been proven to be impossible even though it has been tried repeatedly . It didn't work with GHW Bush's America 2000 plan.It failed with Clintoon's America 2000 plan. It failed under GW Bush's NCLB... and the Emperor's Common Core has now been demonstrated to equally be a failure. All we have to do is look to the North. Canada routinely outscores the US in international exams ;but has no national standards .Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
And what happens to states that have tougher standards than Common Core ? Are they to abandon them for the promise of Federal funding ? Seems to me the goal of Common Core is uniformity instead of excellence.
I see no evidence that higher standards means less federal money.
Nonetheless it's true . States like Massachusetts or Virginia that have standards that exceed the national standards in Common Core will lose out in Federal Funding (not that the Federal Government has any business funding education anyway) .
How? Why?
Then the NYC 'bastion of liberalism' if that's what you meant, is just a microcosm of public education as a whole which seems to be worse in the most liberal areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
You know the feds work, money has strings attached. Do it their way or lose out on funding.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Of course they have resulted in lower scores that's the whole idea. Exactly the same thing happened here. The first response is to show the inadequacy of educational relativism. The second response is to recognize the work you have to do to bring yourself up the ladder.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
It IS the OP I have been addressing with all my posts
Because the so called 'Race to the Top is in fact a Race to the Trough of gvt give aways. States with already higher standards will lose out . In truth however ,Federal money should not be dolled out for education. There is no mandate for it in the constitution.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
That's only in relative terms. The reality is that you don't have adequate standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
You have an ideological objection and this is why you are in the position you are at the moment. Time to up skill.
On the contrary... I've seen the progressive ideology in action for the last 50 years. If you are looking for causation it is there where you can start.
Doesn't matter, its up to the people that live under the constitution to define what our mandates are, and not the few, but all of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Ok then. I'll go along with that being the cause in the last 50 years. That was then, this is now. Time for a fresh approach in a competitive local and international market. As I keep saying, time for private and public sector education to up skill by way of higher common standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Good luck with getting the private sector to invest in workers for the future when they won't invest in them now. It a great idea but they rather profit and exploit, and export the talents and kill they need rather than invest in growing their own talent pools here.
Its cheaper with quicker returns. You see what the private sector did with its tax cuts the last 10 years. They invested every place but here. Be nice though if they partnered with the public sector to educate and train the future work force.
We've had standards, we had standards when I was in school in the 60s and 70s and I'm fine with higher standards. Standards are not the issue, liberal/progressive experimentation with our children in public schools is the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuttyd
So, higher standards are really a liberal/progressive experimentation. If this is the case can you explain how this works?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Failure to achieve those standards is the result of that experimentation. It's not difficult, you can raise the bar all you want but if you fail to teach the children and hold schools/teachers/administrators accountable standards are useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuttyd
Having children sing odes to Obama instead of teaching them how to read is not good policy, but public education in America is chock full of multicultural, feminist, class-warfare and other propaganda. Ever heard of Raza Studies? Well it has no place in public education, but this liberal/progressive stranglehold on public education is committed to indoctrination instead of education. That is the problem.
P.S. Common Core and Race to the Top are designed to strengthen the federal death grip on education.
The failure of you education system is due to ethnocentric attitudes towards education. Both sides are guilty of this. Ethnocentrism was your strength in the past, now it is your weakness. Time for a new start. May I suggest education as a good starting point.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
The growing number of poor people are not all democrats, and the republican controlled enclaves of America seem to have the same problems, both with education, and local services. Ever see the places that a Walmart family have to live and raise families? Despite popular belief its not the feds who control the flow of money to a school, it's the local school boards through there state government. Teachers, fire fighters, and police are losing jobs in cash strapped cities, and that's the governor's keeping high end property taxes low while cutting municipal jobs and giving tax breaks to businesses for cheap jobs.
You wonder where the glitch in education is, look no further than states and local governments defunding education for the poor and redirecting assets and resources to those private institutions run by private for profit individual. Its been shown that it doesn't make education a better product, but it's a more expensive, and profitable one for a few well connected entrepreneurs.
I mean how do you expect to compete on a global stage when the local one is screwed up? Not a lot of hope with 31 states run by right wing governors who rather regulate a females reproductive system than create middle class jobs.
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