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  • Jun 9, 2013, 03:42 PM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    Businesses and banks share and sell lists all the time and to deal with them you do have to check a box of a lot of fine print no one reads. I can deal with check balances and safe guards that reflect the new technology and defines what legal and not.

    As much as I hate the idea of law enforcement having vast powers, I recognize they have to have tools to be effective against bad guys who are ever coming up with ways to get what they want.

    I mean how else can you separate bad guys killing innocent ones if you can't tell them apart? Its to late after the bomb goes off.

    Well for one thing ,remember that FISA means Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act ; not FEDERAL Intelligence Surveillance Act
    Quote:

    MR. EARNEST: I know there's at least one story that all of you may b
    E interested in: the reports overnight about a purported order from a FISA judge, as reported. So why don't I read a statement at the top just to give you a sense about where we are on this, and then I’m happy to answer your follow-up questions after that. So if you'll bear with me, we’ll do this.

    It won’t surprise you to hear that I'm not in a position to discuss specific classified or operational issues. But what I can explain to you are our policies. The Patriot Act was signed into law in October of 2001, and included authority to compel production of business records and other tangible details with the approval of a FISA Court. This provision has subsequently been reauthorized over the course of two different administrations -- in 2006 and in 2011.

    The Obama administration has made public that some orders issued by the FISA Court, under Section 215 of the Patriot Act, have been used to support important and highly sensitive intelligence collection operations on which members of Congress have been fully and repeatedly briefed. And I think you’ve heard a couple of members of Congress in both parties today acknowledge that fact.

    The intelligence community is conducting court-authorized intelligence activities pursuant to a public statute with the knowledge and oversight of Congress and the intelligence community in both houses of Congress. There is also extensive oversight by the executive branch, including the Department of Justice and relevant agency counsels and inspectors general, as well as annual and semi-annual reports to Congress, as required by law.

    There is a robust legal regime in place governing all activities conducted, pursuant to the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Act. That regime has been briefed to and approved by the court. And activities authorized under the act are subject to strict controls and procedures under oversight of the Department of Justice, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, and the FISA Court, to ensure that they comply with the Constitution and the laws of the United States and appropriately protect privacy and civil liberties.

    The order reprinted overnight does not allow the government to listen in on anyone's telephone calls. The information acquired does not include the content of any communications or the name of any subscriber. It relates exclusively to call details, such as a telephone number or the length of a telephone call.

    The information of the sort described in the article has been a critical tool in protecting the nation from terror threats as it allows counterterrorism personnel to discover whether known or suspected terrorists have been in contact with other persons who may be engaged in terrorist activities, particularly people located inside the United States.

    My final point here: The President welcomes a discussion of the tradeoffs between security and civil liberties. Many of you covered his speech at the National Defense University just a couple of weeks ago. In that speech, the President said, "…in the years to come, we will have to keep working hard to strike the appropriate balance between our need for security and preserving those freedoms that make us who we are. That means reviewing the authorities of law enforcement so we can intercept new types of communication, but also build in privacy protections to prevent abuse.”
    Press Gaggle by Deputy Principal Press Secretary Josh Earnest and Secretary of Education Arne Duncan en route Mooresville, NC, 6/6/2013 | The White House
  • Jun 9, 2013, 06:20 PM
    cdad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    Well hell, that's the solution then, wait until they strike and then start looking for them. Why didn't I think of that?

    Not sure but that is not the answer either. It's a matter of being proactive without throwing everyone under the bus. Just like what they did a few years back in Washington State when that guy wanted to blow stuff up during a Chirstmas celebration. They waited until he pushed the button before the arrest. Up to that point they were investigating it and watching it unfold.
  • Jun 9, 2013, 07:49 PM
    talaniman
    I don't see it as throwing everyone under the bus, but I do hope that the safeguards should be put on the FISA court and the FBI that prevent just any old use of the data they mine. You are a computer guy so you know a broad data base is needed for identifying the norms to compare to the abnormal. A background to bring a clear picture to light.

    I think though that the rules will be tightened up quite a bit, or the congress will look closer.
  • Jun 10, 2013, 06:00 AM
    tomder55
    Dark Knight cell phone surveillance — Critical Commons
  • Jun 10, 2013, 06:13 AM
    talaniman
    Rooting for the Joker huh? Okay they got the Joker, didn't they know Catwoman, and the Penguin were coming? Bet Lex Luthor has a better system.

    Are you rooting for Lex to beat Superman? You probably are since you guys hate illegal aliens who sneak into the Earth.
  • Jun 10, 2013, 06:27 AM
    tomder55
    I think Lucious Fox made excellent points. The idea that the government would dragnet millions of phone conversations is like I've already said... seaching through a field of hay stacks hoping to find a needle. I had no problem when the system was being used for conversations with known jihadist #s . It's a horse of a different color to make a broad sweep .
  • Jun 12, 2013, 01:44 AM
    paraclete
    Horse of different colour, you have a mixed metaphor Tom horses don't search for needles in the hay, but we know who does, NSA, the Nasty Spies Association or the CIA,
    The Crippled Intelligence Association, who isn't allowed to go trolling on their own
  • Jun 12, 2013, 05:17 AM
    tomder55
    The latest excuse is that the intel community took a hit for blowing the intel prior to 9/11/01 because intel was compartmentalized on a "need to know " basis . So they changed their methods to more interdepartment sharing ;and intel became a 'need to share ' arrangement . So that's why we get weasels like Bradley Manning and this jerk Ed Snowden .

    Then to my great disappointment , John Bolton said that the dragnet approach had to be OK because all 3 branches of government signed off on it. What nonsense! There is nothing in any of the laws that cover this activity that justifies such a broad data grab. What I would like to see is the brief that the Obots submitted to a FISA judge to get the judge to sign the warrant . The judge should be impeached.
  • Jun 12, 2013, 05:22 AM
    NeedKarma
    Well this is interesting: Bush’s Carlyle Group behind NSA Spying
    It's Tin Foil Hat Time – Bush's Carlyle Group behind NSA Spying « Dvorak News Blog
  • Jun 12, 2013, 05:34 AM
    tomder55
    Add some extra tin foil... James Robert Clapper, the emperor's DNI ,who lied to Congress about the NSA collecting data on hundreds of millions of Americans,was employed by BAH . Before him ,Bush hired John M. McConnell for the role... also from BAH . So it appears that both adm. Have dipped their beaks into the same well.
  • Jun 12, 2013, 05:54 AM
    excon
    Hello again,

    Quote:

    Bush’s Carlyle Group behind NSA Spying
    I'm not thrilled that we're subcontracting our national security apparatus to private companies that are partly owned by Saudi Shieks... But, that's just me.

    Maybe you trust your government with your secrets (I don't know why), but do you trust private companies with 'em?

    Excon
  • Jun 12, 2013, 05:59 AM
    NeedKarma
    "Military Industrial Complex"
  • Jun 12, 2013, 06:05 AM
    tomder55
    Kind of hard to get the geek squad to apply for a government job when they can command the salaries they do in the private sector . Ed Snowden obviously was doing all right for himself according to his video and the pix I've seen of his "pole dancer " girlfriend .
  • Jun 12, 2013, 06:08 AM
    cdad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    kinda hard to get the geek squad to apply for a government job when they can command the salaries they do in the private sector . Ed Snowden obviously was doing alright for himself according to his video and the pix I've seen of his "pole dancer " girlfriend .

    120k a year. But depending on what he was doing in his field that's about the correct salary. I don't see a problem there.
  • Jun 12, 2013, 06:26 AM
    talaniman
    Why squeal and run to China? China??
  • Jun 12, 2013, 06:28 AM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    Why squeal and run to China? China???

    Best guess is that Jullian Assange isn't paying what he used to for espionage.
  • Jun 13, 2013, 04:50 AM
    paraclete
    Julian isn't paying anything these days but no doubt others are
  • Jun 13, 2013, 06:07 AM
    tomder55
    The dots are connecting and they are pointing towards Chinese espionage.
  • Jun 13, 2013, 06:09 AM
    excon
    Hello again, tom:

    Would you share your dots?

    excon
  • Jun 13, 2013, 06:11 AM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    the dots are connecting and they are pointing towards Chinese espionage.

    I have heard they are also pointing towards US espionage, but you don't call it that ioer there, what is the venacular? Intelligence gathering? Given your track record I guess you need to do one hundred times as much as everyone else
  • Jun 13, 2013, 06:16 AM
    talaniman
    Doe this make Snowden a whistleblower, or a secret agent for who, or a traitor for profit?
  • Jun 13, 2013, 06:32 AM
    tomder55
    All the above... I'll come back later today with the open source info that is readily available . Hint.. Why did he 1st contact the Washington Compost with the info... and would've given them the scoop IF they published before the Annenburg Estate summit between the Chinese Premier and the Emperor ?
  • Jun 13, 2013, 09:22 AM
    tomder55
    So did you see that Snowden gave an exclusive interview with the South China Morning Post ?(maybe you think the South China Morning Post is not a state controlled publication ?) He told them that the US has been hacking the Chinese since 2009. When that happened ,this became more than the US datamining it's own people. It is now espionage.
    Edward Snowden Tells South China Morning Post: U.S. Has Been Hacking Hong Kong And China Since 2009

    According to Eli Lake ,the NSA "Q group " has been looking for Snowden since May because of theft of US secrets.
    Inside the
    He escaped to Hong Kong. Why Hong Kong... a place that has a long standing extradition treaty with the US ? The reason is of course because he has reasonable expectation that he will NOT be subject to extradition. So in exchange for protection (and most likely a defection) he will give the Chinese the material he stole .

    The final dot is that he offered the information to the Washington Compost 1st if they would publish in a 72 hr time frame .
    Snowden made cautious approach to Post reporter, said he knew the risk he?s taking - Washington Post
    Why was that important to him ? Because he wanted the publication of his info to coincide with the Annenberg Manor summit between the Premier of China and the Emperor.
    US-China summit fails to deliver - Columnist - New Straits Times
    The President was armed with the evidence about the extent of the Chinese cyber-espionage .
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/19/te...anted=all&_r=0
    But came away from the meeting with neither side saying much if anything about the issue.
    The timing of the release cannot be a coincidence.

    Yes it's greatly disturbing what he revealed as far as the extent of the domestic snooping... but Snowden is giving us a snow job. He isn't no Daniel Ellsburg wannabee. He's more like Julius Rosenberg if you ask me.
  • Jun 13, 2013, 09:30 AM
    talaniman
    We agree!
  • Jun 15, 2013, 01:32 PM
    talaniman
    How Spy Agency Contractors Have Already Abused Their Power | The Nation

    Quote:

    Twenty House Democrats called for an investigation into the scandal, but the Republican-held chamber did little to look into the story. However, Congressman Hank Johnson did manage to briefly question NSA officials about the three defense contractors.
    Scandalous enough for Darrel Issa?
  • Jun 15, 2013, 04:35 PM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    Firms like Palantir—a Palo Alto–based business that helps intelligence agencies analyze large sets of data—exist because of the government's post-9/11 rush to develop a “terror-detection leviathan” of high-tech companies
    The leviathan is the Federal Government , not a subset intelligence gathering capability .

    My signature for many months now has the quote "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? " .The English translation to that is "who will watch the watchers ? " I am shocked at how many people on both sides of the aisle defend these abuses .
    To blame these abuses on the so called 'privatization ' of security is a diversion from the fact that American Intelligence has pretty much dropped the ball since the National Security Act of 1947 replaced the OSS with the CIA .
  • Jun 15, 2013, 04:47 PM
    talaniman
    Yeah just let the contractors scam the people. Why not? Everybody else is.
  • Jun 16, 2013, 04:48 AM
    tomder55
    Alger Hiss , Julius Rosenberg , Bernon F. Mitchell and William H. Martin ,Jonathan J. Pollard,Aldrich Hazen... all turn coats and traitors who came out of an intelligence system long before the use of private contractors... also Bradley Manning was not in the employ of a contractor.
    Your obsessive phobia of private contractors is irrational.
  • Jun 16, 2013, 05:05 AM
    talaniman
    Its no phobia Tom, just a healthy mistrust of business motives, so try not to get distracted here.
  • Jun 16, 2013, 05:10 AM
    paraclete
    I agree with you Tal national security should not be contracted out, next you will be telling me all this survellience takes place in Bangalore
  • Jun 16, 2013, 05:47 AM
    talaniman
    Home grown terrorist and loony lone wolves are domestic, and even more a fact is that businesses mine more information than government does for marketing, profit, and gaining advantage over the competition all the time. But government is supposed to not use that data to save lives?

    Sure have oversight, and strict rules of probable cause, and getting a warrant, that's been done by law enforcement any way, by state, local, and federal authorities. We can dispense with the cloak and dagger though, and accept technology as a tool with strict rules of conduct.
  • Jun 16, 2013, 06:51 AM
    excon
    Hello:

    If the government comes across a plan to rob a bank, are they going to DO something about it? IF the run into a conspiracy to deliver heroine, are they going to DO something about it? What if they detect that the president is screwing Nancy Pelosi?

    Are they going to IGNORE that stuff?

    excon
  • Jun 16, 2013, 06:54 AM
    Wondergirl
    Did the government steal my mom's secret chicken recipe that she gave to me over the phone last week?
  • Jun 16, 2013, 10:50 AM
    cdad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello:

    If the government comes across a plan to rob a bank, are they gonna DO something about it? IF the run into a conspiracy to deliver heroine, are they gonna DO something about it?? What if they detect that the president is screwing Nancy Pelosi?

    Are they gonna IGNORE that stuff?

    excon

    If they don't have a warrant to address those issues then yes they better ignore it. The government does not and can not superceed the peoples rights.
  • Jun 16, 2013, 01:31 PM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    Its no phobia Tom, just a healthy mistrust of business motives, so try not to get distracted here.
    I would like to point out that it was NOT the private contractor that gave Snowden his high level security clearance. It was the NSA or the CIA.
    Evidently ;here is the resume of a modern day James Bond.
    ViralRead » Who Is Edward Snowden? Background on NSA Leaker Emerges
  • Jun 16, 2013, 02:35 PM
    talaniman
    Its safe to say we didn't see this guy coming, or going... to China to give them what he knows.

    Excuse me if I don't find his motivations credible nor compare him to a cult hero, and believe he is trying to save the world. I think he broke the law, and is stirring up crap to cover his a$$ while he gets rich, and live good.
  • Jun 16, 2013, 03:07 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    Its safe to say we didn't see this guy coming, or going....................to China to give them what he knows.

    .

    How can he give them what they already know. The system is porous and some people don't like the way it is administered. You should thank them otherwise you remain in ignorance
  • Jun 16, 2013, 03:21 PM
    tomder55
    That of course is the correct response . The left here is using this incident as proof that private contracting is a mistake.
  • Jun 16, 2013, 03:33 PM
    paraclete
    Don't tell me we agree Tom, let me put an X on the wall
  • Jun 22, 2013, 05:11 AM
    tomder55
    With all this snooping and leaking you would think someone would reveal the Emperor's college transcripts . Even the Aussie government wants to know the intimate details of their citizen's lives .But still his college transcripts are sealed
    https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/curren...fe-754860.html
    Maybe Snowjob has them ,and that's why the Adm has filed a criminal complaint against him ,and has asked Hong Kong for extradition (what took them so long ?)

    Meanwhile the skunk Jullian Assange has managed to charter a private jet from the Chinese company for $240,000 to wisk Snowjob to Iceland ,where he's most likely evade American authority for as long as he remained there. A commercial flight could be diverted . But a ,private jet has a bee line from China through Russian air space to Iceland ,with little chance of intercept.

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