Hello again,

Boy, oh boy... Although I'm having trouble figuring out what liberty IS, I'm finding LOTS of examples of what liberty ISN'T. This latest example comes from Texas, the state that wants to secede because there's TOO many rules coming out of Washington. Bwa, ha ha ha..

A request for a temporary restraining order was granted to prevent Northside Independent School District from removing a San Antonio high school student from John Jay High School’s Science and Engineering Academy because she objected to wearing a name badge signifying participation in the school district’s new “Student Locator Project.” The badges include tiny Radio Frequency Identification (“RFID”) chips that produce a radio signal, enabling school officials to track students’ precise location on school property.

excon

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Originally Posted by paraclete

. Did they envisage the situation where armed gangs roam the streets because of these rights?

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Id like to address this part. Yes they did envision such a situation when they created the Second Amendment. Without it all other rights can go by the wayside.

The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution protects the right of the individual to keep and bear firearms.

The right to arm oneself is viewed as a personal liberty to deter undemocratic or oppressive governing bodies from forming and to repel impending invasions. Furthermore, the right to bear arms was instituted within the Bill of Rights to suppress insurrection, participate and uphold the law, enable the citizens of the United States to organize a militia, and to facilitate the natural right to self-defense.



2nd Amendment

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again,

Boy, oh boy... Although I'm having trouble figuring out what liberty IS, I'm finding LOTS of examples of what liberty ISN'T. This latest example comes from Texas, the state that wants to secede because there's TOO many rules coming out of Washington. Bwa, ha ha ha..

A request for a temporary restraining order was granted to prevent Northside Independent School District from removing a San Antonio high school student from John Jay High School’s Science and Engineering Academy because she objected to wearing a name badge signifying participation in the school district’s new “Student Locator Project.” The badges include tiny Radio Frequency Identification (“RFID”) chips that produce a radio signal, enabling school officials to track students’ precise location on school property.

excon

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And your point is? Sounds to me like they got it right. Furthermore it looks like the law worked in this situation as it should. Im glad they issued a restraining order. In today's world we have far too many helicopter moms and dads that are ruining the whole barrel of apples. When children play they may get hurt. Its part of life. There is no reason to ban everything and try to wrap them in a cacoon then later to send them off into the real world. This line of thinking needs to stop somewhere and this is a perfect example of holding the line.

Next step is to inject the chip in preschool

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Their liberty is to stay in this country and be part of the tribe or to leave and go to a country that thinks like they do.

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I'm only free if you take from me to give to someone else?

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again,

Boy, oh boy... Although I'm having trouble figuring out what liberty IS, I'm finding LOTS of examples of what liberty ISN'T. This latest example comes from Texas, the state that wants to secede because there's TOO many rules coming out of Washington. Bwa, ha ha ha..

A request for a temporary restraining order was granted to prevent Northside Independent School District from removing a San Antonio high school student from John Jay High School's Science and Engineering Academy because she objected to wearing a name badge signifying participation in the school district's new “Student Locator Project.” The badges include tiny Radio Frequency Identification (“RFID”) chips that produce a radio signal, enabling school officials to track students' precise location on school property.

excon

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Again with the secession myth.

I'll tell you what's not liberty, a woman losing her job for (stupidly) exercising the rights that our honored dead fought to protect. How's that?

P.S. Should people be free to protest naked in a Congressman's office? Some things are best left covered up.

Hi Ex,


This may help to answer your original question. At least I hope so.

Basically we never find liberty as something that exists alone. In a democratic society liberty exists in a positive and negative form. If negative liberty means freedom to do as we like then this has to be balanced out against positive liberty. For example freedom of speech is not an absolute. It may well be the case that freedom of speech is an absolute necessity as far as the individual is concerned, but it is in the best interests of society to restrain the individual when it comes to such things as hate speeches.

Because we live as a collective in organized society this means we are forced to temper some of our freedoms. My interest may not be in the interest of the everyone. Basically we can say it is a balancing of positive and negative liberties.


Tut

Yes one of our liberties is to loose our money in the market because of the manipulation of that market by others exercising their supposed liberties. Basically liberty is the free exercise of every action that is not tempered by law and the exercise of every action allowed by law

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I'm only free if you take from me to give to someone else?

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That would depend on the degree of freedom you can rightly expect in an organized society. There is no absolute freedom in any democratic society. So under the social contract we can expect some of our freedoms will be modified.

When Ex asks the question (in another post), "Should sex offenders be free from registration/", or "Should non-violent drug offenders be freed from prison?" The answer is always considered in light of the impact such individual freedoms have on the rest of society.

Tut

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Originally Posted by TUT317

That would depend on the degree of freedom you can rightly expect in an organized society. There is no absolute freedom in any democratic society. So under the social contract we can expect some of our freedoms will be modified.

When Ex asks the question (in another post), "Should sex offenders be free from registration/", or "Should non-violent drug offenders be freed from prison?" The answer is always considered in light of the impact such individual freedoms have on the rest of society.

Tut

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So the answer is yes

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Originally Posted by paraclete

so the answer is yes

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Hi Clete,

Generally speaking I would say so because I cannot think of one freedom that is exempt from the prying eyes of the judiciary. But some freedoms seems to be better protected than others. Again, I would also think that it would depend on the case, but when push comes to shove it is usually the courts that have the final say.

Steve's example of the girl who is fighting to hold onto her job is a little more complicated in my view. I think she has to wear the social sanctions of her actions, after all she was prepared to put the picture in front of the public. The possibility of losing her job over this is a different matter.

But again it is not a case of, " I'll tell you what is not liberty" because this is falling into the trap of setting up a false dichotomy. I think I said something similar in a earlier post to Tom.


Tut

You have got to be kidding there are some people who have forfieted their liberty

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Originally Posted by paraclete

you have got to be kidding there are some people who have forfieted their liberty

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Do you have a specific example? I think part of the problem will be that 'liberty' can be used in a broad or narrow sense. In it's broadest sense I don't think many people have actually forfeited all of their liberties regardless of their crimes. But I could be wrong.

Tut

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That would depend on the degree of freedom you can rightly expect in an organized society. There is no absolute freedom in any democratic society. So under the social contract we can expect some of our freedoms will be modified.

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I don't disagree, but I do disagree with the idea we are "free" with an increasingly heavy dose of government involvement in our lives. I find it incredible that the same people whining about staying out of a woman's "choice" are the same one's fighting desperately to not only limit mine but take away my ability and right to be free to help others as I choose.

The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.
Patrick Henry
A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government. Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address.

John Adams, Founding Father and 2nd President; Thoughts on Government, 1776:

“Government is instituted for the common good; for the protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness of the people; and not for the profit, honor, or private interest of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, the people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government; and to reform, alter, or totally change the same, when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it.”

James Madison, Founding Father and 4th President; Federalist Papers, No. 57, February 19, 1788:

“The aim of every political constitution is, or ought to be, first to obtain for rulers men who possess most wisdom to discern, and most virtue to pursue, the common good of the society; and in the next place, to take the most effectual precautions for keeping them virtuous whilst they continue to hold their public trust.”

Benjamin Franklin, Founding Father, American diplomat, statesman, and scientist; letter to Robert Morris, December 25, 1783:

"All the property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition. He that does not like civil Society on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages. He can have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his Club towards the Support of it."

“There are two ways to conquer and enslave a country. One is by the sword. The other is by debt.”

“Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There was never a democracy that did not commit suicide.”
John Adams

It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood.

Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government.
James Madison

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic

The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself.
Benjamin Franklin

Hello again,

I WAS going to start another thread, but this post is about liberty too - liberty for the MINORITY senators.

The rules for filibustering CAN be changed ONLY on the first day of the new senatorial session.. Should the Democrats DO AWAY, or sharply curtail the filibuster?

Now, I'm all for giving the minority a voice.. But they ARE the minority, and shouldn't HAVE the privilege of deciding what happens in the Senate. With the filibuster, they DO. The problem is the Republicans used to filibuster to PREVENT ANY Democratic legislation to pass the Senate because they were afraid it would make the president look good. Well, they can't have that, so they filibustered 386 bills. Many were bills the Republicans AGREED with, and they WORKED for the country... But, they love their party BETTER, or hate the president MORE, than they love their own country... I surely don't know why that is... In comparison, when LBJ ran the Senate, he had to deal with ONE filibuster - that's ONE = 1, you know, the loneliest number, ONE!

Now, I don't know if McConnell is going to do the same thing THIS session, but why should the Democrats give him the opportunity? He already showed his colors. The American people WANT the congress to WORK. The Republicans don't. The Democrats should MAKE 'em.

excon

Get rid of the filibuster, and the super majority requirement.

Boy I remember how they howled when the Repubics threatened to use the nuclear option. Now I guess they's OK with it.

Let 'em howl! Howling has never stopped repubs from doing what they want, so why should it stop the dems?

Hello again, tom:

How did your guy put it? What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.. He's right.

Look. The Democrats aren't always going to be in the majority. I'm FINE with Democrats living under the same rules. Simple up or down votes work for me. Let's move FORWARD.

excon

So when Republicans take the Senate back are you going to miss the filibuster?

When was the last democratic filibuster in a republican controlled senate? When will repubs take back the senate?

Well the gang of 14 prevented the use of the nuclear option. So it's not really sauce.

I like the fillibuster for the reason the founders designed the Senate. Here is the analogy Washington used... the Senate was created to "cool" House legislation just as a saucer was used to cool hot tea . Madison said it was to be the great "anchor" of the government. Madison explained that the Senate would be a "necessary fence" against the "fickleness and passion" that tended to influence the attitudes of the general public and members of the House of Representatives.The filibuster is a good thing because it frustrates, literally and intentionally.

A fillibuster has not prevented the Senate from passing a budget . A fillibuster has not prevented the President from proposing a plan to steer away from the fiscal cliff . Why should the President care about Senate rules anyway ? It didn't prevent him from making recess appts when the Senate was still in session.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

When was the last democratic filibuster in a republican controlled senate? When will repubs take back the senate?

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So you don't want to answer the question. I understand.

I got a different solution. Get rid of the changes to the fillibuster rules the Robert Byrd Senate made in the 70's . Before then ;a fillibuster shut down the Senate until the issue was resolved. But the Byrd rule changes made it possible to stall a specific bill or appointment and still conduct other business.

Harry Reid has only himself to blame for the frequency of fillibusters . He acts like an autocrat keeping Republic amendments on the shelf and not allowing them to be properly debated . Frankly the Dems would do well to dump the chump and get a better majority leader . I suspect even the Schmuckster would do a better job.

Hello tom:

You FORGOT McConnell's PLEDGE to make Obama a one term president. Then he tried, and tried, and tried. It didn't work. Bummer. People noticed. But, not you.

excon

Hello again,

After digesting this and the 2010 elections, I have a final thought. You wingers have a habit of shooting yourselves in the foot. You SHOULD be running the Senate, but you ran some clowns instead. You SHOULD be running the presidency, but you ran some more clowns. Obama was eminently beatable, but you ran Michelle Bachmann, Rick Santorum, the Newster, the forgetful guy, and the pizza guy. Romney was the DEFAULT candidate. If you'da run ANY of the guy's who refused, such as Chris Christy, Rob Portman, Mitch Daniels, Jeb Bush, and a couple more, you'd be RUNNING THE WORLD.

That you aren't in charge of EVERYTHING is TOTALLY on you.

excon

So is every thread going to be about calling us losers? More of that uniting the country stuff?

Agreed . My solution would be to change the primary process. Stop using Iowa as the 1st caucus ;have a rotating system instead ;and most important... end all open primaries. Primaries only open to registered Repubics .T Pawlenty would've been the nominee if the Repubics had their heads out of their a** .Mitch Daniels ,my personal favorite had personal reasons for not running... (forget Christe... you guys would love to have the Repubics run another North East big government governor... same with Jeb Bush ) . The Repubics have 30 of 50 state governors ;and Rubio and some others will have more experience in 2016 . There will be plenty to choose from if the country survives the next 4 years .

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello tom:

You FORGOT McConnell's PLEDGE to make Obama a one term president. Then he tried, and tried, and tried. It didn't work. Bummer. People noticed. But, not you.

excon

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What about it ? What exactly is the role of the minority party ? I'll remind you that when it came to a domestic agenda ;it was GW Bush that crossed the aisle ;not the other way around.

Looking for solutions and compromise ? Is that the President's posture ?
Obama on tax cuts: Don

To Dems compromise means Republic surrender.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

looking for solutions and compromise ? Is that the President's posture ?
Obama on tax cuts: Don

To Dems compromise means Repubic surrender.

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Oddly enough the still-campaigner-in-chief is also in favor of Reid's filibuster changes. Something about the American people deserving "a United States Senate that puts them first, instead of partisan delay."

Yeah that would be the same Democrat-controlled Senate that hasn't bothered to even consider a budget for going on 4 years now. The same Democrat-controlled Senate that refuses to consider anything out of the House.

There's a key to understanding what Obama says though. When he isn't referring to himself he really is, as in when he says "the American people deserve a United States Senate that puts them first" he means "The American people deserve a United States Senate that puts me first."

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"The American people deserve a United States Senate that puts me first."

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That is every single US politician.

What planet do you live on

Liberty and the way it should be.

Best Second Amendment Video Goes Viral (DollarDVDProjectLiberty.com) - YouTube

What a tear jurker, what that demonstrates is that arms should be kept in a secure place not in peoples homes

Apparently liberty isn't being able to keep your 100-year-old family business because the feds renege on an agreement...

The Drakes Bay Oyster Company, California's only remaining cannery has been ordered shut down by Interior Secretary Salazar in spite of the fact the federal government convinced property owners in the area to sell their land to the National Park Service in exchange for protection from developers and 40 year leases to be renewed in perpetuity.

The Lunny family which owns the company and employs 30, once featured as an outstanding example of environmental stewardship, was targeted by environmentalists and has fought a 7 year battle with the feds being falsely accused of environmental damage based on manipulated evidence.


The Framing of an Oyster Farm

Environmentalists are cheering the federal bullying of a responsible company into extinction. Liberal compassion at its finest.

Meanwhile, the feds are subsidizing new oyster farms on the east coast.

Is this about liberty,or legality?

Feds deny Drakes Bay Oyster Company lease renewal | abc7news.com

There are several links associated with this story that are notable. Not taking sides, just looking deeper.