Ex derisively dismisses everything, but he grows on you (like a fungus).Quote:
Originally Posted by dontknownuthin
Just kidding, he's harmless.
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Ex derisively dismisses everything, but he grows on you (like a fungus).Quote:
Originally Posted by dontknownuthin
Just kidding, he's harmless.
Time for a funguside
Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
A National curriculum would be one reason. Do all schools over there follow a national curriculum?
Tut
In theory yes they do. But it is up to the States to set the goals. So if a child is in one state they may be working on something different in another. But in the end the same goals that were set forth are achieved.Quote:
Originally Posted by TUT317
Example: The government (federal) sets the standard goal to be A B C D.
States can make their own choices as to how to accomplish the goals and when.
State 1 might work with CDAB. State 2 might do it ACBD.
In the end it is the same but the brush is narrowed when painting the picture of education as a whole.
I don't know how Tut can be proposing a national cirriculum when it is only recently standardisation has occurred to us as a means to solve certain problems. The problem is always to get the teachers on the same page as far as achievement is concerned. We have recently found there is a problem with keeping certain senior students in the school system and ways must be found to prevent them from degrading the performance of othersQuote:
Originally Posted by califdadof3
And I think that mainstreaming disabled students "degrades" the performance of others, although it does offer advantages to the students that are not curriculum related. And standardized tests have their place, but they also dumb down teaching. No longer are students taught how to think. There's no time in the school day for that because the students have to be taught all the trivia so they will pass the standardized test.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
BAM ! Love it when we agree on something. Standard tests are lazy ways to evaluate teacher's performance. But I think where the system errs is in automatic tenure . But I do think those days are coming to an end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
They all use the same alphabet and numbers? Pretty much the whole point of being a private school is to be free to do things differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by TUT317
Not really the point I was making, disabled students need to be dealt with in appropriate facilities so as not to disturb the progress of others but this shouldn't mean isolation. No I was speaking about those older students who have no real interest because for various reasons they don't really see their future being benefited and so they become disruptive, even aggressive. We have a lot of these in our school system, they are not allowed to drop out, legally they must attend to a certain age, but probably they have reached their potential shortly after attending high school for the first time. They know school attendance isn't going to lead to that good job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Evaluating teacher performance cannot rely on test outcomes although the number of passes or failures may be indicative of the quality of teaching. There must be a way of weeding out the teachers who have lost their passion and are just doing a job
I'm so out of the loop now, but I'm thinking we offer alternative schools for these young people who have aged out and may be behavior problems, are segregated from the rest of the students for everyone's benefit. Teacherjenn would know.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Yes we have them, they are called reform schools or juvenile detention centres
You have to do more than just teach, as some students have other issues to be addressed. The earlier and quicker those issues are effectively addresssed the better.
Schools are not the place to address social issues, while they might be a point of first contact they have a specific role to play and that is delivering education, anything beyond life skills training should be delivered by someoneelse. This is the mistake government makes, it tries to make existing services responsible for delivering new initiatives. This is the result of trying to minimise government spending and services
Schools are where social skills and interactions take place and are also the only safe haven many kids have. Adults are not perfect and since most of the day is spent at school there have to be programs that enhance and teach those coping skills and give positive direction to young minds to go along with the ABC's.
In the ideal world parents, teachers and the adminitration works together, but that's not always the case, but why should kids suffer for adult flaws, or the lack of funds for a balanced education and learning experience?
Everybody isn't going to business school or be lawyers, or scientist. Nor are there enough alternatives or charter schools for everyone either.
So you think government programing is the answer ? We all have flaws and almost nobody had a perfect childhood. It is part of what makes us who we are. That shouldn't require government intervention.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
It's and old but flawed argument, Tal, that schools should do more than educate. The right place to impart social skills is in the home, schools can do little more than introduce the student to the idea.
This is not an ideal world, teachers have a specific role to play and if they do that well, the students leave the school with some important skills which might make them employable or able to handle higher education. We are now in an era when few chilrdren might be able to pursue a favoured career path. To suggest they address social issues as well is one reason why schools don't achieve the purpose they are provided for.. You cannot turn the school into a quasi family, to do so sends the child the wrong signals, piting child against family because the teacher becomes the primary authority figure. I have seen it myself, a child bursting into tears with frustration when they find the information given to them by a teacher was wrong. Let teachers teach the subjects they are qualified to teach and let other's interact to deliver the services they are trained to deliver
But parents aren't imparting skills in the home. And those "others" are who?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
I never said anything about social issues, but kids do have personal issues and the school does have to at least work with parents and local officials to address them whatever they may be.
Federal and state have to support those efforts with resources and options to help the locals. No one raises and educates kids in a vacuum, it's a collective effort.
Kids have personal issues because boundries are not implemented in the home and disciple is all but non existent. The child is not the centre of everything and the sooner children are taught they have a place by parents the sooner schools can get back to doing what they are supposed to do. Parents aren't imparting skills because they were not taught them in the first place by their parents. The namby pamby ideas implemented over the years have only left parents powerless to implement discipline.
The vacuum exists now because of wrong policies, particularly discipline policies. And lack of self discipline is at the root of these issues we think children have. I put it to you ADHD was unknown before junk food and the permissive society
The reality is there are problems to solve with our kids and the schools whether parents are doing the right thing or not for whatever reason.
You can't just discard the kids becaue the adults are whack. That's a lousy way to raise kids or run a society.
What will change that? How can we get parents back to properly parenting their kids?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Stop letting them cop out, make them personably responsible for their children's behaviour and fine them if necessary, the hip pocket nerve does wonders. Immediate suspension of the child in school for any bad behaviour so that the parent becomes part of the solution from the start
Who's going to oversee this? The schools? I don't believe that's their job, although they would be the ones closest to the situation. And what about all those parents who are just good enough, who just scrape by in parenting and whose kids are just barely making it but could do so much better?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
At the library I worked at (and at many other libraries), there was/is a weekly parenting session. Mothers brought their young children and were taught how to cuddle with their kids and read to them and talk about counting and colors and shapes in the books and learn how to ask questions to stimulate their kids' interest in what was being read. These moms were taught things you and I wouldn't think twice about doing, but we had good moms to teach us, whereas these moms had no one to teach them how to be good mothers.
It seems like schools and libraries and maybe churches and local volunteer groups and village organizations all need to work together even more closely to get parents on the right track in knowing how to parent.
No bleeding heart solutions here please, there are plenty of resources and yet despite that our societies are going to hell in a hand cart and it is all becuause of lack of discipline and responsibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Enforcement comes through the courts but the instigators of action must come from the teachers where the problem is identified in the school and the police where it is identified on the street and from social workers where it is identifed else where. I know the cry is resourcing and lack of funds but look where this lack gets us. It is not less expenditure that is needed but expenditure in the right places.
I understand that a falling back in faith leaves many without the right contacts and leadership but there has been too much buck passing. It is a community problem but laws need to be changed so the community, in whatever form, can take action. Too much of this PC garbage and rights garbage. That hasn't taught anyone respect for anything. What is needed is some real action. It's not kid gloves that are needed in many instances, it is the birch and not just for the kids but for the parents. You don't see these problems in Singapore where community standards are enforced. Birch a few parents and you will see the kids come into line real quick
But I'm not looking at hardcore cases of families that groom young criminals. I'm as worried about the only barely adequate parenting. Then what?
As I said fine them make them take responsibility and resign yourself to the fact that some kids are already ruined and they might carry the problem to the next generation but modifying their behaviour will have an impact. There are ways to turn kids around but it takes resources and the will of the state to put those resources in place and keep them there. It has to be tough love, boundries and consequences. No more pats on the head and sympathy, that hasn't worked and yes, you might have to impinge on someone's liberty to make an @ss of themselves
Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Lifting your standards of literacy and numeracy in schools won't work using a 'supermarket' approach to education.
Tut
It's not like the public school system uses tried and proven basal methods . What good is standardization of the methods if the ones they are using is the latest fad ? Better alternative would be to use a supermarket approach and find out which ones are effective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Wrong choice of words on my part. By 'supermarket I actually meant 'fads'
Tried and true methods based on the best research would be the best approach in the public schools A national curriculum would allow the widespread allocation of resources that allow for the best outcomes when undertaking standardized tests. Best practice best outcomes.
Tut
I'm in Wondergirl's camp. There is way too much emphasis on standardized testing .The teachers know that the outcome of the tests are the measure they are judged on . So the teachers teach to the test and ignore every other aspect of teaching the subject to the students.
That's what a national cirruculum is for so certain subjects and content must be taught and standardised tests test the effectiveness of teaching that cirruculum by measuring the knowledge of the students. The questions should be taken randomly from the whole cirruculum just as any tests are designed. To narrow the tests to a small part of the cirruculum is to defeat the purpose of the tests and promotes opportunism. This is entirely different to measuring basic literacy and numeracy
I think it's pretty interesting that we keep changing to new methods of education and our kids are getting dumber. How about this -
Focus on reading, writing and math and have the children practice all of these skills also in learning addititonally American and World history, and basic sciences - biology, chemistry and physics. Teach them geography and spelling. When they get into middle school, add more literature, more challenging research and writing and technology. Offer courses in civics and study skills. Do this early and the kids will have the ability to learn whatever they need to learn and will have solid core knowledge.
We are so busy trying to cater to every culture and need, we've abandoned the basics. Children with special needs do need the same basics, perhaps just taught more slowly or in a different manner, relying on a different sensory focus - they might do better learning visually or orally or in a hands-on manner. But keeping it basic permits better assessment of what is working.
Here in my home city of Chicago, core problems are that the kids are hungry and unsafe. Some of our neighborhoods are war zones. I am in favor of bringing in the national guard until these neighborhoods are safe for average people, including kids going to and from school. When a neighborhood is under siege, people have to just accept the hassles of their streets being under patrols and curfews until the problem can be resolved. Unfortunately, this has been turned into a racial issue instead of a safety issue, which is kind of dumb. Black men are killing black men, women and children - how is it racist to patrol the neighborhood to protect the good black people from the criminal element among them?
I see all kinds of gimicks and gadgets used in school and so much time is a total waste. The kids do not learn basic information and skills well enough to apply what they know in new situations. In the days when I was in school it's true that some children with special needs were not adequately served, but the basic approach worked beautifully for the other kids. The problems were not with teaching method but with economics - kids being hungry, inadequately clothed, unrested and unsafe. Instead of changing our entire education approach in troubled schools, we should leave the educational process alone and address what's really at fault. Feed the kids, implement uniforms (and get subsidies if kids can't afford them). Offer breakfast and lunch so every child has at least two meals a day even if they get nothing at home. Beef up school counseling resources and coordinate with family services so that the approach is not to get parents "in trouble" if they are struggling, but rather get help.
And the politics - we need to keep it out of the classroom. Teach the kids how to think and core knowledge, not what to think.
Hard to concentrate on the basics when teachers have to teach the proper way to roll a condum on a cucumber .
You know that sort of thing has been tried back in 2007, we did what we called the intervention, to protect aboriginal kids from molestation and to improve health, education, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontknownuthin
A certain area of the nation was essentially cordoned off, invaded by the army, doctors, administrators, The welfare recipricants lost control of their income, some people just migrated but we are talking about a white community imposing its will on a black community. The intervention still isn't over years later and the general verdicit is it caused a lot of grief and it really hasn't made that much difference. Maybe some problems like alcohol have had some attention, kids have been forced to attend school, maybe at some level health and even housing have been dealt with but the basic problems remain, welfare dependence, drug dependence, squalor, low literacy, low school attendance, violence, unemployment. We had to suspend the Racial Discrimination Act to do it. In the process we have abolished peak aborigional organisations and haven't done much consultation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norther...gency_Response
I guess what I am saying is that if you specifically target a race or even a district you will get allegations of racism and you may not succeed
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Our police force and social service personnel are very well integrated in the Chicago area. As many as not serving in these occupations are the same race as the community they are serving. I don't think it's quite the same as white people taking over an aboriginal area. The division is not between races but between factions - one gang against another, and people who do not want gangs in their neighborhoods being intimidated by those in the gangs. Pretty much all of these people in the case of Chicago are black Americans, born and raised in the US. The people cannot help themselves without intervention by force because they are intimidated by violence.
Hey I know where you are coming from and I know you have a different level of violence over there but don't think we didn't have black police and automonous areas before the intervention.We are talking about indigenous people, equivalent maybe to your amerindians, territory is a big thing to them. The problem was a black community problem and don't think the people didn't know what was going on, and who was doing it. The nature of the problem was different, domestic violence, rape, incest, child molestation, violence, drunkenness and drugs. We just got to the point of saying there is a law, one law for the whole country, and it is going to be enforced, because what you are doing just isn't working. When you intervene you do more than kick some heads and show a presence on the streets because all those problems that were hidden will surface. If you make it hot for the gang bangers they will move and so it has to be tackled in more than a neighbourhood, maybe it has to become state wide, which is what we did. In your case they could just move across the border and then maybe it becomes a federal problemQuote:
Originally Posted by dontknownuthin
Hello again, tom:
I'm beginning to think that you believe pregnancy is PUNISHMENT for screwing around, and an abortion EXCUSES it. Clearly, you're NOT interested in STOPPING unwanted pregnancies...Quote:
hard to concentrate on the basics when teachers have to teach the proper way to roll a condum on a cucumber .
Excon
Or sing odes to Obama.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I'd be willing to sing a duet with him. Great voice he's got (she said Yoda-like)!Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Perhaps you could just sing to him. Something like "You're So Vain" or "You're No Good." :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
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