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Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

With this decision I predict we will be back again .

Hello again, tom:

If we WANTED a predictable outcome, we should have INSTALLED a puppet. We DO know how to do that, after all. Instead we thought a democracy might be nice... and that's what happened.

But, whomever made that decision, didn't understand that it takes MORE than an election and a declaration that you ARE a democracy, to actually BECOME one. How did they not know that? It's in the history books..

I shouldn't be surprised. Given that they didn't know starting a war for the WRONG reasons ain't real smart, it's not surprising that they'd get this wrong too.

So, who made these decisions?? The DECIDER himself.

I say again, the war was LOST when we went in.

excon

We had an agreement with them that all parties in Iraq wanted renewed . Obama wasn't interested in preserving the gains made . So we left .
There is a parallel to this. We had an agreement with the South Vietnamese too. But at the time that the North Vietnamese decide to have a full scale invasion of the South ,the Democrats in Congress decided it would be a good time to abandon them and to renege on that commitment.
At least this time we won't have images of US personel climbing onto roof tops to get out of Dodge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

There is a parallel to this.

Hello again, tom:

My point exactly... It's IN the history books. We started that one for the wrong reasons too.. You'd think we'd learn.

excon

PS> (edited) In fact, we were SO wrong about Vietnam we should count ourselves extremely lucky. Vietnam winds up being peaceful and a good trading partner..

I have NO such illusions about Iraq.

Hello again,

Let me see.. It took the Iraqi's exactly 10 days after we left to ramp up their war - the war that George W. Bush lost. Massive bombings last night. Maliki ordered his vice presidents arrest... It's going to hell over there...

Who, besides me, is NOT surprised by this news? Who, besides me, thinks the people we left there WITHOUT fighters to protect them, are at risk? Who, besides me, remembers our troops who were massacred in Lebanon?

excon

Obama lost this war... he's the one that ran away before everything was stabile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothy

he's the one that ran away before everything was stabile.

Hello smoothy:

So, how long should it take the most powerful military the world has ever seen to conquer a backwards nation like Iraq? 10 years isn't enough??

Do you remember Yugoslavia? Since the end of WWII, that country WAS a civil war waiting to happen. Tito was able to keep a lid on it. After he died, nobody was surprised that civil war erupted.

Since the end of WWII, Iraq WAS a civil war waiting to happen. Saddam was able to keep a lid on it. So were we, kind of. After we left nobody is surprised that civil war is erupting. Ok, maybe YOU'RE surprised.

excon

Interesting example Yugoslavia. You do realize that NATO including US troops are still in the Balkans... that despite gains ,the whole thing could collapse with NATO abandonment ?
Funny that I hear no objections to our continued presence there .
Perhaps if we had bugged out a year or 2 after relative peace those bombs in Baghdad would've been going off in the streets of Sarajevo.
Interesting how you seem to favor the strongman leader in some nations ,and favor their removal in other similar ones.

When asked to leave, you leave. When asked to help, you help. When its time to come home and paint your own house, you go home and fix your own house. Last I checked many of the Balkan countries are part of Nato, or the European union, and Kosovo is the only country still under UN protection.

Lets be real, and let the Iraqis do there own thing and figure it out for themselves. Its not like they are the first country to have a civil war before the unite under one nation. That's there right under self determination. No different than what's going on all over the Persian Gulf, and what has gone on here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello smoothy:

So, how long should it take the most powerful military the world has ever seen to conquer a backwards nation like Iraq? 10 years isn't enough???

Do you remember Yugoslavia? Since the end of WWII, that country WAS a civil war waiting to happen. Tito was able to keep a lid on it. After he died, nobody was surprised that civil war erupted.

Since the end of WWII, Iraq WAS a civil war waiting to happen. Saddam was able to keep a lid on it. So were we, kinda. After we left nobody is surprised that civil war is erupting. Ok, maybe YOU'RE surprised.,

excon

As a Vietman Vet... you should know fighting a war half assed and running away before its time... never ends well. I knew and worked with a few of those South Vietnamese that were fighting with us that dealt with it after our hasty retreat.

A lot didn't survive the next few years. Some got out via Thailand on foot, one got out by boat... all were persecuted by the Communist government.

One was born in Hanoi... but moved south to fight against the Communists back when the French were there and the trouble broke out. Yeah he was a much older fellow back then. He's either dead now or a VERY old man now. I knew him 30 years ago and he was around 60 then. Oldest guy at my office.

And "Measured response" is political jargon for 'lets do this halfassed so we can pretend we did something and leave later.".

Nuke 'em right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by talaniman

Nuke 'em right??

Not worth that...

But the Iranian Idiot might cross that line if someone doesn't take him out first.

I don't get what all this bellyaching is about. The Iraqi have a few issues they need to work out themselves. I'm sure we were all aware these issues existed and now you will see a repressed people take back what they consider theirs. That the majority in Iraq might be traditionally/religiously aligned with the Iranians is the way it is

Well a lot of it is the left trying to blame this all on "W" Bush... when this all started after Saddam invaded Kuwait.

Its been a cease fire ever since with Saddam getting his hormones in an uproar to prove what a big man he was until he poked and prodded one time too many.

The first gulf war never ended... it was put on hold with the cease fire agreement... EXACTLY like the Korean war... which STILL is under a cease fire agreement... the war never actually ended. And can still resume in a heartbeat.

And the fact Obamas been in charge for the last three years means HE has owned it for the last three years.

He wanted the job... he has to take all the baggage that goes with the job.

THe Obamies in their warped world view think "W" was responsible for everything that ever happened anyplace, ever... starting with the extinction of the Dinosaurs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothy

As a Vietman Vet...you should know fighting a war half assed and running away before its time...never ends well.

Hello again, smoothy:

I agree. Fighting a war half assed doesn't work. But, it's the ACT of fighting of it half assed, that CAUSES one to run away before its time. That's because, if it WEREN'T fought half assed, its time would have come LONG ago. Finally, fighting it half assed is the ULTIMATE DISRESPECT for the soldiers who fought it WHOLE assed and lost their lives.

We know who the Commander in Chief was WHEN the war was being fought half assed? We know.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothy

Well a lot of it is the left trying to blame this all on "W" Bush...when this all started after Saddam invaded Kuwait.

Its been a cease fire ever since with Saddam getting his hormones in an uproar to prove what a big man he was until he poked and prodded one time too many.

The first gulf war never ended....it was put on hold withthe cease fire agreement.....EXACTLY like the Korean war.......which STILL is under a cease fire agreement....the war never actually ended. And can still resume in a heartbeat.

And the fact Obamas been in charge for the last three years means HE has owned it for the last three years.

He wanted the job...he has to take all the baggage that goes with the job.

THe Obamies in their warped world view think "W" was responsible for everything that ever happened anyplace, ever.....starting with the extinction of the Dinosaurs.

No smoothy when 'W" came to power it proved the dinosaurs where not extinct

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy:

I agree. Fighting a war half assed doesn't work. But, it's the ACT of fighting of it half assed, that CAUSES one to run away before its time. That's because, if it WEREN'T fought half assed, its time would have come LONG ago. Finally, fighting it half assed is the ULTIMATE DISRESPECT for the soldiers who fought it WHOLE assed and lost their lives.

We know who the Commander in Chief was WHEN the war was being fought half assed? We know.

excon

Yes... Obama was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

No smoothy when 'W" can to power it proved the dinosaurs where not extinct

Harry Ried and Nanacy Pelosi where pulling their insider trading hijinks that would send anyone else to jail long before W got elected... and they haven't stopped yet. And they are both older than rocks.

The Dems were hell bent to get out regardless of the consequences .
Prime Minister Iyad Allawi said that that the U.S. left "without completing the job they should have finished."
So let's stop the pretense that they "wanted us to leave.

It is quite evident that the Dems are more interested in getting the troops out before the 2012 elections regardless of the situation on the ground... declare the "Bush war" a failure, and reap the political benefits. It is irresponsible and shameful.
AGAIN the world will be taught that the US does not keep it's commitments to it's allies when the going gets tough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

Prime Minister Iyad Allawi said that that the U.S. left "without completing the job they should have finished."
So let's stop the pretense that they "wanted us to leave.

Hello again, tom:

Of COURSE he'd like us to win his civil war for him...

But, that ain't what our guys should be doing. Where we fight should NOT be based on what foreigners want. It should be based on what WE want. And that's what happened.

Besides, aren't you one of those who complain when we DO the bidding of foreign leaders?? I think you are.

excon

LOL Tom, since when do foreign leaders set our policies for us? If he had REALLY wanted us to stay, wouldn't he give in to what we offered. That's not what happened. He wanted us to stay for HIS purpose, on HIS terms, and we rightfully said NO!

Quote:

Originally Posted by talaniman

LOL Tom, since when do foreign leaders set our policies for us? If he had REALLY wanted us to stay, wouldn't he give in to what we offered. Thats not what happened. He wanted us to stay for HIS purpose, on HIS terms, and we rightfully said NO!!

Ever since Obama took office we have... he cares more about what others think than what WE think... He couldn't care less about what the American public wants... unless there's something in it for him.

You may be part of the American public, and many might agree with your position, but I bet that "others" do not. I would also bet that MOST do NOT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by talaniman

You may be part of the American public, and many might agree with your position, but I bet that "others" do not. I would also bet that MOST do NOT.

Really... the Polls say otherwise.

Show me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by talaniman

Show me.

He doesn't deal with facts... jus' sayin'. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

He doesn't deal with facts...jus' sayin'. :)

YOU , never deal with facts...

The left in general live in a state of denial... oblivious to reality when reality isn't what they wish it is...

Presidential Approval Ratings -- Barack Obama

And most of those that DO like him are the freeloaders that don't pay their fair share of taxes... in fact... don't pay any at all. They think they are entitled to a free ride at the expense of others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothy

And most of those that DO like him are the freeloaders that don't pay their fair share of taxes...in fact....don't pay any at all. They think they are entitled to a free ride at the expense of others.

Strange argument against someone who wants to raise tax. You think that the people who are least able to pay should pay more tax and therefore endure hardship while the real loafers in this world, the speculators should pay less. I'll suggest this to you 10% is a fair tax so when you can demonstrate and I don't mean averages that the rich truly pay at this level, I would suggest that your argument might hold water. By the way this payroll tax thing is joke you don't want 6% deducted. From what I hear most of it is refunded. Do you have a tax system over there or a farce designed to make work

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothy

YOU , never deal with facts.....

The left in general live in a state of denial...oblivious to reality when reality isn't what they wish it is...

Presidential Approval Ratings -- Barack Obama

And most of those that DO like him are the freeloaders that don't pay their fair share of taxes...in fact....don't pay any at all. They think they are entitled to a free ride at the expense of others.

You mean the rich and corporations who pay no taxes, and create NO jobs? Yes they are freeloaders too, on the backs of us hard working honest taxpayers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

Stange argument against someone who wants to raise tax. You think that the people who are least able to pay should pay more tax and therefore endure hardship while the real loafers in this world, the speculators should pay less. I'll suggest this to you 10% is a fair tax so when you can demonstrate and I don't mean averages that the rich truly pay at this level, I would suggest that your argument might hold water. by the way this payroll tax thing is joke you don't want 6% deducted. From what I hear most of it is refunded. Do you have a tax system over there or a farce designed to make work

We agree Clete, the tax system is rigged, and allows extraction of wealth, by the wealthy. And the peoples failure to hold politicians accountable.

The system or lack of it

Quote:

Originally Posted by talaniman

We agree Clete, the tax system is rigged, and allows extraction of wealth, by the wealthy. And the peoples failure to hold politicians accountable.

Sorry Tal did you hit the delete button in the middle of your text or has the phantom editor struck again. I don't understand how the tax system is linked to failure at the ballot box

American politicians are bought and paid for by whomever makes the highest bid. The really ambitious special interests buy the whole party as evidenced by party line votes with not one single member having an independent thought. The founders were not exactly paupers on the average but they did have the best interest of the country at heart I believe. That value is seriously lacking today and there is possibly a big price to be paid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

Sorry Tal did you hit the delete button in the middle of your text or has the phantom editor struck again. I don't understand how the tax system is linked to failure at the ballot box

By Smearcase
"American politicians are bought and paid for by whomever makes the highest bid. The really ambitious special interests buy the whole party as evidenced by party line votes with not one single member having an independent thought. The founders were not exactly paupers on the average but they did have the best interest of the country at heart I believe. That value is seriously lacking today and there is possibly a big price to be paid."

If the electorate doesn't pay attention, and elect responsible people to take care of their interests, and not what corporate America wants, then the tax code will not be fair, nor will any other endeavor of governing be in the best interest of the people.

I point to as an example the last election, where the tea party swept into the HOUSE, along with republican governors through out the states. Now we have a faction in the HOUSE who cannot govern since their goal is to shrink government, and let corporations rule in the vacuum, while governors assault the poor, and working classes, and seek to disenfranchise the right to vote in what's clearly a class war for corporate take over.

So yes, its important to know who you elect, on the federal, state and even local levels because you never know who tries to profit on your ignorance.

That faction being Speaker Bonehead and the establishment Repubics .

Or the uncompromising tea party, led by Eric "the snake" Cantor.

Naaahhh . Speaker Bonehead let the President highjack the tax cutter mantle this week... ridiculous . He has to go. Cantor is also an insider . I'm looking for Paul Ryan to lead the party if they have any hope.

Do you think a 2 month extension of a bad tax cut is a good thing ? Why should a bad idea get passed in the spirit of compromise ?

Bad Tax Cut??

I need that 42 bucks!! Keep it going for the rest of the year!!

And if you can't take a few bucks from multi millionaires, then leave my freaking check alone!!

Are you serious??

Sorry I don't trust any of those "young guns"! Plus we all know it will be another hostage situation in 2 months any way.

As the President designed it. He wants to demogogue that raid on the Social Security fund throughout the campaign.

Point 5 percent surtax on the second million dollars doesn't sound like too much to ask for when we need some kind of job creation. Now just me, if the banks can be saved, and now they are rolling in dough instead of BROKE, point 5 percent as a return is more than fair.

Then you don't have to raid social security, which is probably the right wing goal any way. That's the whole problem. You know how that looks? Making granny pay while protecting the irresponsible rich guys who ruined things.

We would increase growth, and GDP if republicans would get out of the way and stop watering down initiatives, and then holler they don't work. You can't move forward with an anchor on your back, or by going back to the good old days, of blind dumb following like sheep.

There's some red meat for you Tom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

Do you think a 2 month extention of a bad tax cut is a good thing ? Why should a bad idea get passed in the spirit of compromise ?

Hello again, tom:

Politically speaking, if you're the tax cut party, it's a BAD idea to be AGAINST a tax cut.

Besides, I think a two month tax cut for middle class people is MUCH better than a TEN YEAR tax cut for the rich..

excon

There is no such thing as a good temporary tax adjustment either cut or increase. 2 months is absurd .

The TP Republicans are more than willing to allow the payroll tax cut to be permanent. They were willing to let it go on temporarily for another year. It's the President that wants it to be an issue throughout the election cycle so they can keep feeding lines to tal about the obstructionist Congress.