 |
Strangely I don't object to the use of foreign materials... must be the free trader in me.Quote:
What you thought those bridges would get built with just American building materials??
The point is we don't need to hire extra military personel to peel potatoes. I don't see why that would be desirable .
Well we know somebody has to peel the potatoes! I suppose that getting someone else to do it, leaves the soldiers free to soldier.
Its an unfortunate thing though that as we trim the fat, downsize, or reorganize, SOMEBODY loses a job over it. To be honest, my pet peeve is a lot of honest blue collar factory work, has been replaced with flipping hamburgers, washing dishes, and turning down beds.
It was those manufacturing jobs after WWII that lead us to the BOOM that made us the most industrious nation in the world, and it's a shame we have allowed ourselves to be downgraded from a leading super power to what we have now.
Not accusing or pointing fingers, simply reminiscing.
YupQuote:
I suppose that getting someone else to do it, leaves the soldiers free to soldier.
That's "progress" for you .Quote:
It was those manufacturing jobs after WWII that lead us to the BOOM that made us the most industrious nation in the world, and it's a shame we have allowed ourselves to be downgraded from a leading super power to what we have now.
I don't have an answer except thus ever was.
I would add the caveat that after WWII we were the only game on the planet so it wasn't very tough to compete.
Hello tal:
It IS a lot like crying over spilled milk. The time to STOP the jobs from going overseas was BEFORE they went overseas... But, they're gone now, and they ain't coming back...
We need to invest in the NEW economy. The only one of those I see on the horizon is the GREEN economy... But, the wingers ain't having NONE of that. They're just "HOPING" something happens to "CHANGE" things... Snicker, snicker..
excon
I can agree Ex, because things are changing but some don't want it to.
A tug of war at the moment.
200,000 jobs lost in Ohio alone because the courts stopped a plan to frack. That's 200,000 high paying jobs... jobs Americans will do!!
The Western Hemisphere is the 21st century Persian Gulf of natural gas and oil ;but only the US refuses to participate . Even liberal Canada is on the bandwagon..
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
The potatoes need to be peeled.. We either pay very little to get it done, or we pay a lot. I don't see why it would be desirable to pay a lot.
excon
You think the military is just another civil service job ? It costs a lot of money to train military personel . It wastes a lot of money training soldiers and sailors to peel potatoes and run kitchen services when there are food service companies that can do it better and cheaper. It saves the government money to contract services to the private sector .That's just the fact.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
That's what they SAY. I don't believe it.
excon
Neither do I,
President Puts Defense Contractors on Notice: Crackdown on Costs Is Coming - WSJ.com
Taxpayers Get Stuck Saving Defense Contractors' Pensions | Mother Jones
Defense Contractor Fraud | Federal and State Claims Act Resources
Medicare Fraud & Healthcare Fraud - Investigating Qui Tam Law
Counterfeit parts threatening DOD supply chain; contractors to be held more responsible -- Washington Technology
Add that to the "60 Minutes" piece two months ago, which I can't get a link for, we have a lot more facts to add to the food of thought. Some menu, huh!
Indeed all contractors should be put on notice that budgetary priorities means that pencils will be sharpened and fat trimmed from the budget... I already said defense is not immune... all bureucrats should simularily be put on notice..
Mother Jones may single out defense contractors ,but it may be a surprise that that is standard issue for all government contracts going back many years. Of course it is absurd and should be a procedural change and certainly eliminated from future contracts .
Have you fellows ever conceived of the possibility that is the problem is the system, in this case the military system which is unable the conceive of the concept of cost.
Look the way to deal with bureaucrats whether military or not is to tell them that the budget is cut to a specific figure and tell them to prioritise to reach that figure. We all know that there is waste and inefficiency no matter where you go. How hard can it be?
Why limit it to defense ? There is not an agency in government that isn't bloated and an inefficiently run organization. It's the nature of the beast. THAT IS WHY YOU WANT TO LIMIT THE SIZE AND SCOPE OF THE GOVERNMENT .
How about effective, and efficient, Tom, and cuts where cuts can be made based on efficiency rather than size.
Think surgeon and not butcher. Government is not business, and you can't run it that way. No more than you can run your household like one just because the priorities for government, business, and house holds are vastly different, and have to be managed differently.
Business doesn't care about people, they care about profits, and will shed people to achieve that goal. Government has to service people no matter the bottom line, and households have to sustain, and maintain people, no matter what happens, no matter what governments, and business does.
No matter how you dice it, it comes down to money, and how well that money is circulated. Any dynamic that stops that free circulation, hurt all, business, government, AND households (people), and NO corporations are not people, they are business.
In this manner we can prioritize as such,
Households (people), government that serves the people, and business, that facilitate circulation. If they don't function well together, we have what we have now, a recession with a lot of poor people who's number grows as we speak.
If you don't want to print more money, then you must circulate better what you have. Find the blockage, and free the circulation, and then send some of those robbers to jail.
That's the bottom line in my eyes, we got robbed big time, and we the people haven't formed a posse or told the sheriff to get busy and get the robbers.
Follow the money, it's a very bright paper trail.
Some need a surgeons scapel ;some need a cleaver or chain saw ;some need amputation.
Hi Tom,Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
You don't think that's the end of it do you?
Don't worry these corporations will be working hard in a number of areas to over ride state and local authorities. They will win through in the end. Too many lawyers, too many resources and too much money.
How about these corporations use 'personhood' as a starting point for their campaign against the wishes of local communities who are worried about the impact of fracking?
Tut
Almost all the communities that are affected are basically living in an economic depression and have been for much longer than the 2008 bank failures.
Go ask the people of Ohio ,Western Pennsylvania ,and upstate NY if they want drilling .
Ask them if the want the same economic opportunities that the folks of North Dakota have.
Energy Production Is Turning Economic Lights Back On - Energy Intelligence (usnews.com)Quote:
Thanks to production of the Bakken shale fields, North Dakota enjoys the highest employment rate in the country. New home construction is booming, and builders are having a difficult time keeping up with consumer demand. And while many states are facing historic budget deficits, North Dakota is reaping the benefits of growing oil revenues that have generated back-to-back budget surpluses.
In Pennsylvania, development of Marcellus shale gas has already translated into 140,000 new jobs and $11.2 billion in economic output during 2010, according to a recent Penn State University analysis. And beneath much of eastern Ohio lies the relatively untapped Utica Shale formation, which the Ohio Oil and Gas Energy Education Program estimates will create 204,000 new jobs in a state that experienced the third-highest job loss during since the recession began. Moreover, economic output will increase by more than $23 billion and wages by $12.3 billion during the same time frame, the program concludes.
http://blog.cleveland.com/business_i..._can_reig.htmlQuote:
Gas fields are taking shape in the rural counties southeast of Cleveland, and that's no wind farm. Gas is a proven fossil fuel with a global market. In natural gas, some see an economic catalyst with the strength and reach to spark an industrial renaissance.
Already, steel mills are expanding in anticipation of a shale gas boom in Ohio, Pennsylvania and West Virginia. Spin-off industries are expected to spring up to supply the machinery, laborers, lodging and chemistry that energy production demands, and to exploit a new local power source.
"We'll now possess a cheaper, dependable, industrial fuel. That's hugely important for us," says Edward Hill, an economics professor at Cleveland State University.
As gas flows, Ohio can expect to see new pipelines, new refineries and new petrochemical plants, Hill and others say, as well as expansion by energy-dependent manufacturers.
Each week, residents of Northeast Ohio see new evidence of the economic potential. Youngstown has been watching a massive new steel mill rise from desolation. Marathon Oil is expanding its capacity to accept oil -- Ohio oil -- at its refinery in Canton. Republic Steel announced it is reinvesting in Lorain. Earlier this month, hundreds lined up at a hotel in suburban Akron for a novel event: a job fair for the gas rigs.
http://www.oogeep.org/downloads/file...ber%202011.pdfQuote:
Natural gas and crude oil industry could help create and support more than 200,000 Ohio-based jobs from the leasing, royalties, exploration, drilling, production and pipeline construction activities for the Utica shale reserve. The state could experience an overall wage and personal-income boost of $12 billion by 2015 from industry spending.
The study also projects royalty payments to landowners, schools, businesses and communities could increase to as much as $1.6 billion by 2015—a number that exceeds the total amount of royalties distributed by Ohio’s natural gas and crude oil industry in the last decade. Total tax revenue from oil and gas exploration and development in the Utica shale formation from 2011 until 2015, including severance, commercial activity, ad valorem (property), federal, state and local taxes, is projected to be approximately $479 billion. Industry expenditures related to Utica shale development could generate approximately $12.3 billion in gross state product and result in a statewide output or sales of more than $23 billion.
The environmentalists don't have a case . The impact is minimal . The fracking occures well below(thousands of feet) where the ground water and aquifers sit. This is not new technology . Fracking has occurred in over a million wells in the US for over 6decades. There has never been a case of ground water contamination where hydraulic fracking is utilized .
http://www.epa.gov/safewater/uic/pdf..._exec_summ.pdfQuote:
EPA also reviewed incidents of drinking water well contamination believed to be associated with hydraulic fracturing and found no confirmed cases that are linked to fracturing fluid injection into CBM wells or subsequent underground movement of fracturing fluids. Although thousands of CBM wells are fractured annually, EPA did not find confirmed evidence that drinking water wells have been contaminated by hydraulic fracturing fluid injection into CBM wells.
So if it is a proven clean method going back 6 decades then what is achieved by the President delying a decision for 6 more months ? Could it be that he wants to make a dramatic announcement in the spring of a Presidential campaign will at a campaign stop in a key swing state like Ohio ? Nahh . He wouldn't delay the creation of 200,000 jobs for political reasons
I don't know where you get your scientific facts on this but my own experiences and research tell a different story, and with the millions that are affected by soil, and water contamination being newly identified, caution is the ONLY approach, like what we should have done with asbestos, and we know how that turned out.
'Fracking' for natural gas is polluting ground water, study concludes - CSMonitor.com
Impact of Oil & Gas Drilling on Ground Water | eHow.com
Fact Check: Contamination Of Groundwater By Fracking Was Documented In 1987 | ThinkProgress
Duke University Study Connects Water Contamination to Fracking Natural Gas Wells - Natural Gas Watch.org
And the case can be made that the decades of sub standard testing and data, have left many coommunitie already with the need to ship bottle water to towns and homes. Lets be clear, they are just learning of all the chemicals used in frakking, and the resulting heavy metals that are not tested for yet.
Tap Water Contamination - Tap Water in 42 States Contaminated by Chemicals
Ummm mine was from the EPA site
Actually I have read that there is an abundance of dihydrogen monoxide in the aquifers affected .
My position is that unless you specifically look for a particular toxin, you won't find them.
There are many we should be looking for.
It's easy... 90 .5 % of fracking involves water and about 9% sand... the rest ,about a half percent is a combination of sodium chloride ,ethylene glycol ,borate salts ,and sodium and potassium carbonates.. all items commenly used in other household and food processing .
The EPA and the Clean Water Act have strict provisions on the recovery and recycling or storage of recovered fracking fluids... and it is not a continuos process. It ends when the shale has been fractured and the natural gas starts being extracted.
"It's our experience in Pennsylvania that we have not had one case in which the fluids used to break off the gas from 5,000 to 8,000 feet (1,500-2,400 m) underground have returned to contaminate ground water." John Hanger, former secretary of the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection .
There have been some cases where methane migration from the fracturing has caused wells to be contaminated . These are rare cases .
| Water Contamination From Fracking (Hydraulic Fracturing)
Quote:
The major concern with shale gas drilling is the chemicals used in the process. Because the federal Energy Policy Act of 2005 exempted hydraulic fracturing from regulation under the Safe Drinking Water Act, shale gas drillers don’t have to disclose what chemicals they use. A study conducted by Theo Colburn, PhD, the director of the Endocrine Disruption Exchange in Paonia, Colorado, has so far identified 65 chemicals that are probable components of the fracking fluids used by shale gas drillers. These chemicals included benzene, glycol-ethers, toluene, 2-(2-methoxyethoxy) ethanol, and nonylphenols. All of these chemicals have been linked to health disorders when human exposure is too high.
We have here in Texas more and more rural communitie with toxins so high that the drinking water is flammable.
Scientific Study Links Flammable Drinking Water to Fracking - ProPublica
Flammable drinking water sparks explosions over Barnett Shale drilling TexasVox: The Voice of Public Citizen in Texas
Big Downside to Fracking: Flammable Water | MyFDL
As we see this isn't recent, nor isolated.
So it's a case of stop the fracking fracking
No it's a case of more research and development, and a lot more science. But its probably easier, and more profitable to defund the EPA, and a few more agencies.
Bottled water any one?
T al don't be niaive this is another environment disaster on a grand scale presented to us by the "scientists" who so generously gave us the Bopal disaster, the Gulf disaster, the nuclear meltdowns and so many other failures to assess the risks and take adequate precautions or should we just blame the american way "capitalism" which so many nations have misguidedly adopted. We have this fracking problem here too with vast areas of prime agricultural land at risk all in the name of a safer environment and reduction in CO2
You are the niaive one .You think windmills and solar panels made with stuff mined near someone else's drinking water is the solution to the 21st century energy needs. You are just another NIMBY.. At least in the US there are some environmental controls . I guess you don't care in the least that some 3rd world nation is getting their raw materials extracted with no safety measures at all.
There is no such a thing as clean energy . All you are doing is exporting the problems elsewhere.
I am willing to bet that any of those environmental problems being identified are mostly ones from the early days of fracking .
The only problems related to drilling are engineering challenges.
I'm looking for energy independence or as close to it as possible. Yeah it makes much more sense to continue to rely on foreign supplies travelling through the gulf of Hormuz ;or strip mined rare earth minerals dominated by another nation that is at best an economic rival .
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I know there are arguments for and against drilling and I know people want the jobs. It's a good point, but that's not the point I am making.
The question I am asking regards local authorities (rightly or wrongly) making a decision based on local legislature that drilling should not that these local decisions are overturned?
Corporations have the power, influence and money to challenge local and state regulations. Not only do they have the power but they will probably win through in the end.
The question is really about local and state authorities having the power to make their own decisions (again, rightly or wrongly). A good starting point would be to give local authorities some short of chance by getting rid of this,'personhood' nonsense.
Tut
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Hi Tom,
I thought you were against regulations.
P.S. What is a NIMBY?
Tut
It is silly to say I'm against regulations as if that is an absolute. If that is what you take from my positions then you aren't listening . I've clearly targeted needless and excessive regulations... not ALL regulations .
Good grief... you were the last person I thought I'd have to explain that to.
NIMBY /// not in my back yard .
You are 100 % wrong about that .It is exactly at the local level where the corps often get stopped . I have attended many local meetings where the interests of the people are at odds with the plans of the business interests and more often than not ;when the people attend the local meetings and let their will be known... they prevail.Quote:
Corporations have the power, influence and money to challenge local and state regulations. Not only do they have the power but they will probably win through in the end.
The question is really about local and state authorities having the power to make their own decisions (again, rightly or wrongly). A good starting point would be to give local authorities some short of chance by getting rid of this,'personhood' nonsense.
It is when decisions are made by nameless faceless bureaucrats in Washington is when the will of the people is unheard or ignored .
Oh geez, the Kochs bought a bunch of candidates in the Carolinas and turned back the clocks on the SCHOOL BOARD, of the largest most progressive, school district in the country. They and a few of their friends, and governors have started all kinds of state uprisings, like in Wisconsin, and Ohio, so don't just look to Washington for blame, without pointing to states and cities with this personhood.
They run the states and cities, and have made inroads into the congress, and are going for the White House, to rig the game in their own favor. Maybe you should look deeper into your own thinking and see they AIN"T on your side either.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_926799.html
What you thought the Kochs just wanted Wisconsin, naw, they want it all even IRAN.
If the Koch Bros inc are a corporate "person" who don't have rights ,then so are the public employee unions that own the local pols.
By the way ;in your attempt to demonize them you do realize that they are small pototoes compared to Dem corporate sponsors like George Soros and GE (not to mention the companies that the President bought with taxpayer money like GM and their duel auto/ barbecue 21st century electric cars )
You would love to make that comparison, but there is none. The Kochs represent their interest, and public unions represent ME! Hard working, blue collar workers, who use to make up the now dwindling middle class to get a FAIR standard of living to raise and educate our families. We are who the Kochs lay off, send our jobs overseas, when they need a few bucks. Hey the locals have to get votes from somewhere to represent OUR interest. Geez Tom, that's the way its supposed to be!!Quote:
if the Koch Bros inc are a corporate "person" who don't have rights ,then so are the public employee unions that own the local pols.
This is America, NOT Kochland, and rich guys don't run this, THE PEOPLE DO! It doesn't say that all men are equal, and whomever has more money is MORE equal.
When the many serve the few, that slavery, and I know I have told you that on more than a few Occasions.
Now maybe its not right to have a few rich people on our side too, but what's a guy to do? Get rid of YOURS, I get rid of mine, but until then tell your guys to keep there paws off my local election. You conservative slaves crack me up! You get mad when you don't get your way in everything, all the time.
I got to go burn my dishes!
Decided to have a rant again did we Tom? As far as we are concerned the problems with fracking are ground water contamination and destruction of productive land through salination. Some think this preferrable to digging vast holes in the ground and disturbing the top soil but both processes destroy the agricultural potential of productive areas or pollute the catchment aresa for water supply. Relying on the Gulf of anywhere isn't a problem where I live and rare earths are found in other places.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
What in fact you are complaining about are the results of that capitalist free market system you espouse.
The only reason economic rivals exist is that you make them so, they could just as easily be economic partners, however there is no doubt that we need to find new ways to provide our energy needs and the existing methods, both old and new, are not as efficient as we would like.
I would like to see my nation solve this problem by using its vast reserves of uranium. It is a good solution as no other nation's environment is affected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Sounds good to me.
However, it will never change because we know who has the most to lose by getting rid of corporate personhood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder
I thought you said I was 100 percent wrong? This examples makes me less than 100 percent wrong.
Do I have to search through Google to find examples of corporations making legal complaints against some local authority on the basis that the law is violating 'ITS' civil and constitutional rights.
Tut
The free market capitalistic system is about extracting profits, by any means necessary. They won't pend a dime to make it a SAFE process.
But that's more a reflection of the people who use it, not the system itself. That what they sqwuack about when they say regulations hold them back. Its no secret that they would rather settle wrongful death suits, and pay non compliance fines, than save a few lives, and spend money on safety.
I hope you guys do better Clete.
Tal, we are just as much caught in this mesh as you are. All we hear here is the market mechanism and how it solves problems, why it is going to reduce carbon emissions by 80%, provide new industries, full employment, innovation and lead us into a utopian future and if that doesn't do it then new and innovative taxes will.. .Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
But we are seeing a move for a moritorium on fracking, moves to restore the Murray-Darling which will mean less water for big cotton and intensive agriculture and the opening of uranium mines
Don't concern yourself.. I'm sure red Julia is on board with destroying this industry that would not only be a viable alternative to coal ,but would also be a valuable export commodity .
If I was a conspiracy theorists I'd think this ruin of the western economy was intentional .
It was though Tom, the global ecomomy was ruined by greed. Hey it wasn't my idea to scam everybody, and stuff the loot in their mattresses!
How did they miss you??
Well Tom you may well be right, someone must have gained out of this but with the interconnection of economies these days no one can escape the pain. You have yet the realise that unbridled capitalism is the cause coupled with government interference in that market mechanism you love so well..Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
But Europe is a horse of a different colour, so your conspiracy theory doesn't do so well. No, Tom, we will just have to agree we did this, no, you did this to yourselves. I blame the political system because when it comes down to it, it is impotent.
On the other hand a nicely controlled economy sits a beacon in these troubled times but you keep to your tired views, they have served you well
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:02 AM. |