LOL, so you think we don't have allies in Afghanistan? What about the thousand of Afghanis, Pakistanis killed by their own enemies, who are countrymen? This conflict has been going on for centuries before the colonials tried to colonize this region. The Taliban had many enemies before we got there, and will have as many after we leave. No Clete, your assertion hold no water, especially the one about them being backward. They are anything but, as though they don't have your level of sophistication, or lifestyle they are an old society, with rich traditions and culture the dates back thousands of years.

I won't even comment on how fierce you guys would fight if we invade your island, a humorous thought at best, but what's funnier, what have you done to us and what do you have we need to take, rather than just buy it??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talaniman

LOL, so you think we don't have allies in Afghanistan?? What about the thousand of Afghanis, Pakistanis killed by their own enemies, who are countrymen? This conflict has been going on for centuries before the colonials tried to colonize this region. The Taliban had many enemies before we got there, and will have as many after we leave. No Clete, your assertion hold no water, especially the one about them being backward. They are anything but, as though they don't have your level of sophistication, or lifestyle they are an old society, with rich traditions and culture the dates back thousands of years.

I won't even comment on how fierce you guys would fight if we invade your island, a humorous thought at best, but whats funnier, what have you done to us and what do you have we need to take, rather than just buy it???

---

I don't think you have the money to buy it anymore Tal, by the way the Chinese have tried that and failed. Like all colonialists you think your superior forces count for something. You should remember the lesson of your own revolution, the lesson of Vietnam and the lesson you are being handed in Afghanistan. A determined people is worth much more than foreign invaders. Your view of the Taliban is twisted, the Taliban are an invention of the Pakistan ISS with a little help from the americans, very recent history, and you should remember how effective they were against the Russians. The Pakistanis have no interest in killing the Taliban, just keeping them in their place and even the Pakistani's speak of them as being backward so I take my information from the locals, not the yokels

So you know of the Northern Alliance and how we supplied them with arms against the Russians?

You didn't answer the question though, what do you have that we would have to invade you to get, instead of just buying it on the market?

Don't be offended if we don't see you as a threat, and we do rent land for our strategic interests. As we do with Pakistan. Sorry Clete, I just see no reason you feel threatened by us?

You can't be jealous since your island is the shining glory of the human race. Oh wait, I get it, you think our president visiting you is an invasion?? Kind of paranoid that idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talaniman

So you know of the Northern Alliance and how we supplied them with arms against the Russians?

You didn't answer the question though, what do you have that we would have to invade you to get, instead of just buying it on the market?

Don't be offended if we don't see you as a threat, and we do rent land for our strategic interests. As we do with Pakistan. Sorry Clete, I just see no reason you feel threatened by us?

You can't be jealous since your island is the shining glory of the human race. Oh wait, I get it, you think our president visiting you is an invasion??????? Kind of paranoid that idea.

---

Don't be silly, Tal, your own president has said that america has no greater friend (and ally) than Australia. When I hear that kind of B/S I cringe, what does he really want? This visit by BO is in danger of becoming the non-event of the century, I can't even get a text of his address to parliament, nothing new there, I guess. What I found interesting was there was no welcome to country by the aboriginal community, that is almost obligatory these days. I guess they were confused and did it at the President's Cup opening

Yes, I remember the northern alliance in Afghanistan, on its last legs until the action of Al Qaeda and then an opportunistic america helped them out, and hey presto, a new democracy was birthed in a rain of bombs and ruled by war lords and influence peddlers. You might remember how useful your new found friends were in capturing OBL

We don't threaten anyone Tal. We could have developed nuclear weapons way back when, but we made a strategic decision long before it was popular not to, doesn't mean we aren't nuclear capable, but you can't have too many dirty jobs to do, you haven't called on us for an escalated commitment recently. Don't worry, we'll be there should you need a friend, doesn't mean we agree with you.

While we are speaking we may need some help enforcing freedom of determination for West Papua, are you up for it? 250 marines should do it

You didn't answer the question though, what do you have that we would have to invade you to get, instead of just buying it on the market?

US to station troops in northern Australia as fears of China's Pacific presence grow

Surely you have a few good men of your own?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talaniman

You didn't answer the question though, what do you have that we would have to invade you to get, instead of just buying it on the market?

US to station troops in northern Australia as fears of China's Pacific presence grow

Surely you have a few good men of your own?

---

Sure do, Tal, we are rotating them through Afghanistan and Timor Leste at the moment, sort of helping you out, you know. Just as we are helping you out by hosting 2500 marines for six months each year. I guess you don't want to get your feet wet.

That statement you made about China is in direct contradiction of your president who says he doesn't fear China, said it both yesterday and today, just to reassure himself I guess, because you didn't hear him.

I'll answer that question with this
How would your life compare? Australia vs US where it counts | News.com.au
Please read it fully and answer the survey at the end

I am sure it's a lovely place. So is the US.

Not to worry though, we won't let China spoil it. Super Powers often engage in chess games.

China won't spoil it Tal and we won't let you either. Your view of China is wrong. For thousands of years their focus has been on strengthening their borders. They have suffered greatly over centuries from invaders, so naturally they are a little paranoid and could easily misintrepret BO's posturing.

We too play chess

China guards its borders well, but that doesn't stop them from leveraging their influence in other countries at all. Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia. I understand a country serving its own interest. We all have our issues to solve.

Tal's view of China is right on. Clete you must have blinders on ;or your press is suppressing the quick expansion of the Chinese blue water fleet . You think that is being built to defend it's litoral waters ?
You know the history of your region. A nation that is expansionist needs to secure resources and defend it's supply route . That is why the Japanese looked south . Australia my not be directly in the path of the string of pearls... but it is in your interest to help them defend their sovereignty . You don't strike me as an appeaser ( someone who feeds the crocodile and hopes it will eat him last ).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

tal's view of China is right on. Clete you must have blinders on ;or your press is supressing the quick expansion of the Chinese blue water fleet . You think that is being built to defend it's litoral waters ?
You know the history of your region. A nation that is expansionist needs to secure resources and defend it's supply route . That is why the Japanese looked south . Australia my not be directly in the path of the string of pearls ... but it is in your interest to help them defend their sovereignty . You don't strike me as an appeaser ( someone who feeds the crocodile and hopes it will eat him last ).

---

Strikes me, Tom, that the US has been feeding the crocodiles for years and what we have found is when you feed the crocodiles they grow bigger. Being particularly familiar with crocodiles we know them to be territorial. Every nation is entitled to have a blue water fleet, we have had one for years ourselves. You may not have piracy in US waters but the South China Sea is renown for there being problems for shipping. You never know, it maybe the Chinese want to stop people escaping their paradise. Or it may be it sees Taiwan as a threat that needs to be neutralised or at least brought out of the fold of US influence.

Quote:

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You never know, it maybe the Chinese want to stop people escaping their paradise. Or it may be it sees Taiwan as a threat that needs to be neutralised or at least brought out of the fold of US influence.

---

You mean they want to conquer Tawian don't you ?

No ,their new surface to ship missiles are designed to make it too dangerous for the US fleet to screen Taiwan. The only reason for them to have a blue water fleet is to extend and secure their energy sources and to threaten their neighbors . They are clear that they consider the South China sea ;the Yellow Sea as their lakes ;and the inner and outer island rings of islands their territory . They recently brazenly forwarded the proposition that they have territorial claim of Okinawa .

Deny it all you want... it's the facts and one of the prime reasons your government wants us based there.

Now I can almost guarantee that given the geology and sometimes peculiar weather on that side of the world ;the primary purpose for us there will be to assist or lead humanitarian efforts . Still ,you'll sleep better at night knowing US Marines man the walls .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

You mean they want to conquer Tawian don't ya ?

No ,their new surface to ship missiles are designed to make it too dangerous for the US fleet to screen Taiwan. The only reason for them to have a blue water fleet is to extend and secure their energy sources and to threaten their neighbors . They are clear that they consider the South China sea ;the Yellow Sea as their lakes ;and the inner and outer island rings of islands their territory . They recently brazenly forwarded the proposition that they have territorial claim of Okinawa .

Deny it all you want ....it's the facts and one of the prime reasons why your government wants us based there.

Now I can almost guarantee that given the geology and sometimes peculiar weather on that side of the world ;the primary purpose for us there will be to assist or lead humanitarian efforts . Still ,you'll sleep better at night knowing US Marines man the walls .

---

As I said, foolish talk abounds... the chinese could conquer Taiwan any time they want to, but they have measured the cost and accepted that Taiwan, with a foot in the west, offers them economic advantages, not the least of which is investment on mainland China. China has a long history and part of that appears to be a philosopy of regaining all the ancient lands that were part of China. Sort of like the Jews laying claim to Palistine and then laying claim to Goshen.

No doubt the Japanese think they have ancestoral claims to Korea too but that is a horse of a different colour.

Tom I don't sleep any better knowing the US has a foothold on Australian soil. It makes our neighbours nervious. Our forces in the north are adequate for the defence of Australia, there being no eminent threat. We always saw Pine Gap and the Cape as frontline targets back in the cold war days and all you have done is painted a target on Darwin. I noted with interest your announcement of your new weapon which demonstrates you don't need troops in forward bases to make an effective strike.

What will be interesting will be the response to the freedom movement in West Papua, will your 2,500 marines do their humanitarian work there?
We did the hard yards in Timor Leste, this might be your turn to show what you are worth. You want to be engaged in the Pacific, here is your big chance. Since your own fair land has more than its share of disasters, I cannot see why they would not be more useful at home.

You think we want you based here? What? A piddling force of 2,500? For six months of the year? What would that achieve in a real conflict? This is all about tokenism and gunboat diplomacy and the little red fox is using her new found bosum friend, she doesn't have many here, to give her an electoral shove. It is just that this sort of thinking that will get her a shove out the door. It is also about giving you the excuse to develop the bases you are using here

And 60% of your trading partners including China are within the Chinese sphere of influence.

Hate to see your exports in danger due to their proclivity for some shady trading practices, and have attempted to rig the markets more in their favor. Do you have a trade deficit with CHINA? YET?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Hate to see your exports in danger due to their proclivity for some shady trading practices, and have attempted to rig the markets more in their favor. Do you have a trade deficit with CHINA? YET?

---

Trade between Australia and China is a two way street, two lanes out of Australia and one back. For this reason Chinese cars are now sold on the Australian market, the Chinese are conscious the balance is in our favour.

Please don't judge us by american standards, your decline has done us a lot of harm in the trading terms just as your inventive trade practices did us a lot of harm earlier. We have a saying "what goes around comes around" and so now it is our turn to prosper from chinese sales to america. It is most fortunate your multinationals did not get their hands on our export industries. Amazing with all your business acumin you didn't see it coming

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Now I can almost guarantee that given the geology and sometimes peculiar weather on that side of the world ;the primary purpose for us there will be to assist or lead humanitarian efforts

---

Pull the other one will you? It plays DIXIE

China has not indicated they want your help, Japan did not want your help, have you made a recent effort to help out in the Philippines? Are you helping in Thailand now? Just who is you intend to help with B52 bombers? With 2,500 marines stationed here part time?

Run for president or Prime minister or whatever you call it and send us packing.

But all due respect, we are hardly anywhere in the world without invitation, the only exceptions being where we have some very bitter enemies. They sound like you but they have real guns, and actually kill people.

If you don't want help say so, but don't speak for any one else but yourself. The japanese, and the Tai's can speak for themselves. The Chinese WILL speak for themselves too, and if you don't like our trade ways, don't trade with us. We do have other options.

And don't throw rocks at out marines, they are crack shots. Have you ever met an American? Or is your poison from the papers? Just curious where your hate comes from.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Pull the other one will you? it plays DIXIE

China has not indicated they want your help, Japan did not want your help, have you made a recent effort to help out in the Phillipines? A you helping in Thailand now? Just who is you intend to help with B52 bombers? With 2,500 marines stationed here part time?

---

All I have to say about that is Dec 26,2004 . Who's military assets were 1st on the scene providing aid long before the UN finished their breakfast .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talaniman

And don't throw rocks at out marines, they are crack shots. Have you ever met an American? Or is your poison from the papers? Just curious where your hate comes from.

---

Yes I have met americans and they are just as opiniated as you are, so sure of their own righteousness. My hate goes back to the first american who abused me and attempted to make me feel insignificant in my own country, Big mouth, big ego, it intensified, when in a time of rampant inflation, the wise minds in america would not allow the company I worked for to increase salaries to match market value because in their narrow view we were being paid more than they were. I have worked for american companies and I know only too well how they regard the locals. You want to know why I don't like you, it is because of your actions towards Australians

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

all I have to say about that is Dec 26,2004 . Who's military assets were 1st on the scene providing aid long before the UN finished their breakfast .

---

Tom you have a very narrow view of help, let's review some recent performance shall we, what about Haiti? Have they received the promised aid yet? Your efforts in international aid are well below the efforts of other nations but you can say we have this combat ready group just waiting for an opportunity to help you

I am not interested in what the UN does, it is an impotent organisation and can only do what the members give it the resources to do

Before and after the quake,the US has been by far the biggest donor ,both public and private ,to Haiti since 1973 . Short of a takeover, most of it is ,and will continue to be wasted, because despite our best efforts ,Haiti is a failed state.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Yes I have met americans and they are just as opiniated as you are, so sure of their own righteousness. My hate goes back to the first american who abused me and attempted to make me feel insignificant in my own country, Big mouth, big ego, it intensified, when in a time of rampant inflation, the wise minds in america would not allow the company I worked for to increase salaries to match market value because in their narrow view we were being paid more than they were. I have worked for american companies and I know only too well how they regard the locals. You want to know why I don't like you, it is because of your actions towards Australians

---

Don't be mad at Americans, we too have a problem with American corporations. Why do you think they ran to your island? So WE couldn't get OUR raises that we deserved!

Your hatred is palatable, and comes across loud and clear. Unfortunately, I feel its misdirected.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Don't be mad at Americans, we too have a problem with American corporations. Why do you think they ran to your island? So WE couldn't get OUR raises that we deserved!

Your hatred is palatable, and comes across loud and clear. Unfortunately, I feel its misdirected.

---

What sort of strange excuse is that? They came here to cheat you. Don't think this is a low cost country, it isn't, they came here to sell their products or to extract their royalties for their technology and when it didn't work the way they would like because this isn't the "states", they run a manager from the states in to foul things up even more. You talk about this being an island as if it is insignificant, this place is the size of the continential US, any place I want to go is distant

How would you like me to direct my opinion? If I could change your outlook on the world I would

My outlook on the world is we are at WAR, an idelogical one, a new world order, against the old world order. It crosses borders, oceans, and cultures. Its happening through out the world, and pits us against each other in the classic divide and conquer through hatred. Step back from the hate and see if we are having a common problem, is all I will ask of you. Not trying to change your outlook, just want to know what you see without your hate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by talaniman

My outlook on the world is we are at WAR, an idelogical one, a new world order, against the old world order. It crosses borders, oceans, and cultures. Its happening thru out the world, and pits us against each other in the classic divide and conquer thru hatred. Step back from the hate and see if we are having a common problem, is all I will ask of you. Not trying to change your outlook, just want to know what you see without your hate.

---

Where did you get these ideas? A new world order? One world government. A euphenism for capitalist domination ruled by one country. We certainly don't want to go down that road any more than we wanted to go down the communist road. I see the common problem but I think we stand on opposite sides of it. I don't want the new world order where we are all lackeys of the capitalist system, it sounds like the old world order repackaged to me.

The Fabianists have wanted a new world order for a long time, strangely George W Bush spoke about an new world order and who knows he may have been a fabianist. These guys are dangerous because what they do isn't for the benefit of the little guy but to boost their own power and authority. Tal there is no utopia at the end of the road. What we all hope for is dignity, security and a reasonable income. I live in a society where that is possible without riping anyoneelse off. You think I hate but hate leads to violence and I am not a violent person. I intensely dislike any person, nation, etc that places itself above the rest of us and seeks to inject its will into places it does not belong. I also like to laugh at the ridiculous writhings of the system. It is part of the Australian ethos to take the mickey out of the tall poppies, this can be construed as hatred by some and for the record I don't like PC

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paraclete

Where did you get these ideas? a new world order? one world government. a euphenism for capitalist domination ruled by one country. We certainly don't want to go down that road any more than we wanted to go down the communist road. I see the common problem but I think we stand on opposite sides of it. I don't want the new world order where we are all lackeys of the capitalist system, it sounds like the old world order repackaged to me.

The Fabianists have wanted a new world order for a long time, strangely George W Bush spoke about an new world order and who knows he may have been a fabianist. These guys are dangerous because what they do isn't for the benefit of the little guy but to boost their own power and authority. Tal there is no utopia at the end of the road. What we all hope for is dignity, security and a reasonable income. I live in a society where that is possible without riping anyoneelse off. You think I hate but hate leads to violence and I am not a violent person. I intensely dislike any person, nation, etc that places itself above the rest of us and seeks to inject its will into places it does not belong. I also like to laugh at the rediculous writhings of the system. It is part of the Australian ethos to take the mickey out of the tall poppies, this can be construed as hatred by some and for the record I don't like PC

---

DAMN IF I DON'T AGREE!! You ain't the only one who doesn't like to be screwed over. :eek: You sound like part of the 99% to me!! :eek:

In some regards unfortunately there are many Fabians in the
Republic establishment. But the Bush freedom agenda was right on. Where I dispute him was where he did those compromises that tal loves so much that brought us the largest expansion in the entitlement called Medicare ;the largest Federal government intrusion of states authority in education ;and he continued the Clintoon policy of encouraging the expansion of the real estate bubble .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

in some regards unfortunately there are many Fabians in the
repubic establishment. But the Bush freedom agenda was right on. Where I dispute him was where he did those compromises that tal loves so much that brought us the largest expansion in the entitlement called Medicare ;the largest Federal government intrusion of states authority in education ;and he continued the Clintoon policy of encouraging the expansion of the real estate bubble .

---

DAMN, if I don't agree! Hated the part D which wasn't paid for and made life hard for the seniors and forced them into the free market for drugs, at inflated prices.

And all that cheating to get the numbers to look good for a test the states paid for.

And letting those greedy bankers and real estate companies, team up with the ratings agency to defraud millions and extract all the freakin' money in the world, and throw this country into chaos and misinformation, and then blame the janitor who is trying to clean the mess up, and the dems who came after repubs.

Careful Tom, I might have to join the TEA PARTY, Naw, I ain't that mad. Just amused that you repubs wrecked the car and want to drive again.

Well there you go. No Tal I'm not a millionaire but I don't need to be. Money changes your perspective

HEEEEEELP, The conservatives have GOT me, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAhhh! :eek:

Yeh they will do that. Hey I'm a conservative part of the time, I like the pace of change to be ordered and intelligent, not chaotic grabbing at the latest idea and calling it gospel, but there must also be social responsibility, we are all in this boat together and those on the upper decks have to have responsibility for those on the lower decks

HEEEEEEELP, the liberals have gotten Clete! Heeeelp!! :eek:

Not at all, I am opposed to out and out socialism, but there are some things that need to be done and should be done. I think the boundries are more blurred here than they are there. Your Tea Party would be considered far right here somewhere right of One Nation, which was opposed to just about everything, however you have nothing equivalent to our Labor and Greens which are a long way left of centre. Our Liberal party which is considered conservative would be equivalent to some of your democrats, so as a nation we are fairly well signed on to social responsibility

You guys and gals think I'm fairly cynical about america, hell I'm cynical about what much of my own people do and say, but here is what one of your own has to say
http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/...120-1np1w.html

Social responsibility is a projection by someone about how much someone else should contribute.

But consensus of opinion is what makes policy, and rules. Or at least it should in my opinion.

Quote:

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But consensus of opinion is what makes policy, and rules. Or at least it should in my opinion.

---

That's been the death of many a democracy. Fortunately we have the Constitution to guard against the tyranny of the majority .

Yes but nothing is guarding you against the tyranny of the majority in your congress unless it is the use of Executive Orders.

Tell me Tom is it a democratic majority you fear so much?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paraclete

yes but nothing is guarding you against the tyranny of the majority in your congress unless it is the use of Executive Orders.

Tell me Tom is it a democratic majority you fear so much?

---

Republicans are happy only when it's a republican majority. Nothing else makes them happy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

that's been the death of many a democracy. Fortunately we have the Constitution to guard against the tyranny of the majority .

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Hi Tom,

Here is an example of tyranny of the majority.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/22/us...pagewanted=all



The Constitution encourages this type of behaviour.


Tut

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Hi Tom,

Here is an example of tyranny of the majority.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/22/us...pagewanted=all



The Constitution encourages this type of behaviour.


Tut

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Link not working. Can you post it again ?




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