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Originally Posted by TUT317

Yes, you are right discrimination based on colour is racism. However,discrimination based on gender is not racism. It's discrimination based on gender. Isn't it? If it were discrimination based on colour then it would be racism.


Consider this hypothetical.....

I am an employer in a country with a large Buddhist population. According to my hiring records I have not employed any people of the Buddhist faith. Affirmative action moves in and tells me I MUST stop discriminating against Buddhists in my interviewing process. Basically this means I must start hiring Buddhists.

Affirmative action also tells me that certain penalties are in place based on various types of discrimination in the work place. I thumb my nose at affirmative action. They are not going to tell me who to hire. I would rather pay the fine.

When I find my self up before the courts the judge imposes a 24 month jail term for racial discrimination. But wait! Doesn't discrimination based on religion only carry a $500 fine?

The judge tells me yes, but then iterates, "What does it matter, it's still discrimination.If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck".

Tut

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Discrimination is discrimination. There are different kinds of discrimination, but when you look at them all, its all about NOT picking someone because you dislike them for other than their abilities. Be it you hate Blue people, People with three breasts (or without)... or tall or short people.

If you can demonstrate you have hired based on qualification then its not YOU that discriminates... the policy that DEMANDS you hire a certain number of blue people, or a certain number of three breasted people in disregard to if you can find any that are equally qualified to the other applicants is discrimititory.

And anyone that considers being qualified as a second or third on the scale of importance rather than first... gets exactly what they were after... a second or third rate work force.

Look at the post office or most government offices for examples of what affirmative action gets you.

Those are bad examples of affirmative actions Smoothy, but actually I agree with the premise that discriminations is bad. As for affirmative action to fight that discrimination, there are several details you leave out, that are discriminatory by nature. One being is your assertion to being forced to accept one who isn't as qualified as you think you are, taking something from you that you think you deserve. Your position is without facts as there is a very big difference in looking PC and being PC, and you have to agree I think that window dressing to say "See we don't discriminate" is mostly the case, and that actually being qualified, is but a secondary non important motive to those who feed into this type of thinking. Looks good on paper, but contributes nothing. But it does excite anger, and resentment, at someone else, and covers up responsibility for the one who actually discriminates for the purpose of looking like they do not.

Case in point is your own dismissal of the effects of slavery, since you had none, and so you blame the descendants for not getting there act together and getting over their anger, or whatever. Just like the southerners who are spouting the civil war was about states rights, and not slavery.

Fact is slavery, and discrimination is still alive and well in America, and the chains and whips have been replaced by money, who gets it and how much, and policy directed at keeping slaves of the masses and blaming it on those masses.

The example I give you is where the money has gone, and where it has not in the last decades, and who has made the policies that directed that money. Sure its easy to sit in our section of the world and holler what's fair or not, but to ignore the facts, is to ignore the problem and never have a solution.

Fact, in the last 10 years wealth, or the opportunity for wealth, has been sucked out of the hands of the many, and redirected to the few, and the FACT is that there are more poor people than ever before. The FACT is that the ones with the money, have directed what LAWS are made, interpreted, and enforced, and the policies by which they become LAW. Those are facts.

Now you may holler yet again that all the poor want are dope and a free ride and a cell phone, none of which is made or supplied by the poor I may add, so the question becomes, who brings the dope and cell phones to the poor and why? Hmmm history tells us it's the same ones who sold whiskey to the Indians.

My point, we are all slaves being exploited for the benefit of someone else's wealth. Though you have a few bucks more, you are as poor as the poor you decry as being beneath you, and unworthy, and at the whim of another all your hard work is going for naught, and you will hate yourself, and blame others for your misery, just like the poor people do.

That's why they are happy with a cell phone, a bag of dope, and some wine, so they can feel better about themselves. That's why they are still in a ghetto, safely put away to keep them from finding out that there is a better way out, that there is a way out, period. You found it, because you wanted out. I applaud you for that, but just like back in the day when the slaves where freed, they didn't know of a better life, just the valley and fields they grew up in.

That's the discrimination my friend, and what keeps slaves in there place, not knowing what to do with the limited freedom that others would bestow on them. They are happy with just being a window dressing so it can be said, "see, we don't discriminate".

I agree quotas and affirmative actions is another form of discrimination, but that's all you got for now to work with. Until you address the real problem of discrimination, control over the money, or the value placed on a human by another, then we are all reduced to being slaves, whether we are locked in the ghetto, or not.

I wonder, is it your own fear of being poor again, that makes you angry about those that are still poor, or is it your hatred of what you have been through, that has you hating those you left behind.

Or has all your hard work only gotten you far enough to have a few bucks more, yet not far enough to not hear that ghetto blaster, or see your neighbor with a cell phone, and no job? Or do you still feel like the slaves you hate so much. YOU ARE you know, admit it, we all are, because we ain't making the rules, we are just following them.

Hello tal:

**greenie**

excon

Tal,

Wonderful post, well done.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Discrimination is discrimination. There are different kinds of discrimination, but when you look at them all, its all about NOT picking someone because you dislike them for other than their abilities. Be it you hate Blue people, People with three breasts (or without)....or tall or short people.

If you can demonstrate you have hired based on qualification then its not YOU that discriminates.....the policy that DEMANDS you hire a certain number of blue people, or a certain number of three breasted people in disregard to if you can find any that are equally qualified to the other applicants is discrimititory.

And anyone that considers being qualified as a second or third on the scale of importance rather than first....gets exactly what they were after....a second or third rate work force.

Look at the post office or most government offices for examples of what affirmative action gets you.

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Hi Smoothy,

Yes, there are a large number of different types of discriminations. Now that you recognize this I think you are starting to narrow it down pretty well. I think your distinction between institutionalized and personal discrimination is a useful one.

As far as your reference to government offices being examples of institutionalized discrimination? I don't necessarily disagree with that.

Once you institutionalize discrimination in the form of an anti discrimination policy (affirmative action) then (as you point out ) it becomes a legal requirement. Yes,sometimes the law is a donkey.

As I said, I think the distinction is an important because you can have gender discrimination in the work place ( not necessary illegal) while sexual discrimination in the form of a policy is unlawful.


I just wish you wouldn't keep saying, "discrimination is discrimination"


Tut

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Hi Smoothy,

Yes, there are a large number of different types of discriminations. Now that you recognize this I think you are starting to narrow it down pretty well. I think your distinction between institutionalized and personal discrimination is a useful one.

As far as your reference to government offices being examples of institutionalized discrimination? I don't necessarily disagree with that.

Once you institutionalize discrimination in the form of an anti discrimination policy (affirmative action) then (as you point out ) it becomes a legal requirement. Yes,sometimes the law is a donkey.

As I said, I think the distinction is an important because you can have gender discrimination in the work place ( not necessary illegal) while sexual discrimination in the form of a policy is unlawful.


I just wish you wouldn't keep saying, "discrimination is discrimination"


Tut

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I say discrimination is discrimination... because it is. Anything else is certain groups trying to justify their own personal preferences to discriminate angainst someone else.

Its an all or nothing affair. If you allow one form of discrimination, you are a hipocrit to complain about someone else's preferred form.

Because I had a busy day yesterday, and I will again today.

It was commented on a few posts back that Slavery and discrimination are alive and well in the USA... I call BS on the slavery end... because that was outlawed generations ago... and will result in jail time for anyone caught trying it.

Discrimination IS alive and well... and you can thank the liberals for the fact it is. Its called Affirmative action... and cute name changes doesn't change what it is. Its Discrimination, in favor of liberals... at the expense of everyone else, including other liberals.

And personally... I have a lower respect for anyone that believes in discrimination, practices discrimination, or in particular, expects to be allowed to discriminate for their own gain.

The NAACP, Black Caucus, Black PAnthers, KKK, White Supremacists, NeoNazi's, CAIR, CASA De Maryland, and any of that ilk... are all alike. They are all rascists to the core. And all believe in their own form of discrimination.

Doesn't matter if its codified into law... its STILL repugnent. And just because someone generations ago was discriminated on is NO excuse to be demanding anything right now. It didn't happen to you so grow a pair, and deal with it. When he came here my GANDFATHER, not great great or great great great grandfather was discriminated on for his ethnicity... and this was many decades after slavery ended... when blacks could get jobs that the Irish were refused... and yes... look up INNA... Irish Need Not Apply, in reference to New York City.

Do I expect reperations for that? Nope... if it didn't happen to you, then YOU aren't entitled to anything for it. If it happened before your were born... you aren't entitled to anything, nothing wrong with learning about it... but you do have to shut up and stop trying to blame your own personal shortcomings and deficiencies on events that occurred before you were a gleem in your parents eyes.

There is a famous saying because its both accurate and true. "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it." Its not an excuse to keep repeating it. If it wasn't right then... its still not right now, and won't be right tomorrow either.

Hi Smooth,

Everyone, discriminates to some extent.

I discriminate against Vegemite( food based extract made from yeast) I discriminate against it at every opportunity. I can't stand the stuff( in fact I hate the stuff )and I usually make it known to everyone I meet. I do my discrimination act in front of Vegemite lovers. And yes, I do it to promote my own personal preferences. This is not made up I really have been know to do this.

Is my behaviour repugnant? According to your definition it is. Is it?

This is of course a trite example. I'm not sure about American history so I'll go along with your analysis. The only point I have been making all along is that discrimination populates itself along a very large continuum with discrimination against various products at one end to overt racism at the other. One end of the continuum is legal and everyone does it to a certain extent. Racism you can do it but it is illegal. This is why discrimination isn't discrimination.

If you can't see this then there is nothing I can do about it.


Tut

You make it sound like only liberals discriminate now. I beg to differ. Its like a black guy in a suit trying to hail a cab. I do have to say that lumping all groups into the same bucket is stopping you from seeing any differences in those groups, as the purpose of the NAACP, is quite different from the KKK, but you will never know that by your thinking, and that's prejudice, and a shame.

But since your grandfather was never chained, beaten, bought and sold, or lynched, you know nothing of slavery, Jim Crow, or any other legal discriminations going on then, or now. So please stop pretending you do, and minimizing the experience of others with such a narrow view. You don't even try to understand the real fears of others you rail so vehemently against.

That's why you will never understand your own slavery now, because money, and economic opportunity are the modern day replacement for chains, and whips. Fear is still the fence that divide have, and have NOT. Haven't you noticed the slave class growing? Haven't you noticed the total decline of dignity, and self respect? Haven't you noticed that hard, honest work is not rewarded as much as cut throat, selfish behavior?

Of course you don't. That's why you have no concept of institutional inequity, or its long term effects. Take away discrimination, then maybe you won't knock a guy for having a chance.

I respectfully submit that only a racist would even consider the opportunity of another threatens him in any way. Yes I reject all your excuses for hatred.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

You make it sound like only liberals discriminate now. I beg to differ. Its like a black guy in a suit trying to hail a cab. I do have to say that lumping all groups into the same bucket is stopping you from seeing any differences in those groups, as the purpose of the NAACP, is quite different from the KKK, but you will never know that by your thinking, and thats prejudice, and a shame.

But since your grandfather was never chained, beaten, bought and sold, or lynched, you know nothing of slavery, Jim Crow, or any other legal discriminations going on then, or now. So please stop pretending you do, and minimizing the experience of others with such a narrow view. You don't even try to understand the real fears of others you rail so vehemently against.

Thats why you will never understand your own slavery now, because money, and economic opportunity are the modern day replacement for chains, and whips. Fear is still the fence that divide have, and have NOT. haven't you noticed the slave class growing? Haven't you noticed the total decline of dignity, and self respect? Haven't you noticed that hard, honest work is not rewarded as much as cut throat, selfish behavior?

Of course you don't. Thats why you have no concept of institutional inequity, or its long term effects. Take away discrimination, then maybe you won't knock a guy for having a chance.

I respectfully submit that only a racist would even consider the opportunity of another threatens him in any way. Yes I reject all your excuses for hatred.

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Gee, its clear YOU support discrimination, as long as its discrimination YOU want to happen.

You are a liberal... most of those supporting this mindset are liberal... thus the liberals actually are the ones most guilty of discrimination today... and your own post proves it.

Unlike your stance that its OK to discriminate as long as it's the people you want to discriminate against, I say ALL discrimination is wrong. Don't care if its man or woman, White, black, hispanic or other.

The NAACP of TODAY has morphed into a rascist organization. I speak of today's organization that no longer is what it was originally. They don't get a free pass because they support Democrats. Blacks are no more immune from practicing rascism than any other group... and they do practice it... talk to inner city Latinos, or Asians.

Today its no different and no better than the KKK is.

Imagine the Democrats crying if someone started a NAAWP for example.


And personally... what happened 50+ years ago... they need to get over it or get therapy for it. This is today... they need to stop living in the past.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

And personally.....what happened 50+ years ago......they need to get over it or get therapy for it. This is today...they need to stop living in the past.

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I agree. Same with that 9/11 stuff - it's been 10 years! They should stop that sappiness on TV and gte over it.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I agree. Same with that 9/11 stuff - it's been 10 years! They should stop that sappiness on TV and gte over it.

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What does a crime (the Democrats called that a crime, not an act of war remember) have to do with discrimination that happened several generations ago?

So only discrimination should be forgotten then?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

So only discrimination should be forgotten then?

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If someone called you a bad name 50+ years ago and someone won't let go of is indication of a mental disorder.


Slavery ended over 150 years ago... get over it.

One of my Great Uncles dissappeared on the Battan Death march after having been captured earlier by the Japanese... THEY were treated far worse than slaves were. Slaves were quite valuable... but to Eperial Japan, POW's were of less than no value.

But that was 1942... I don't hold it against the Japanese of today at all. Not all Blacks in the USA at that time were slaves... not all blacks in the USA are even descendants of slaves in reality.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

If someone called you a bad name 50+ years ago and someone won't let go of is indication of a mental disorder.

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Well if you're equating slavery to someone calling you a bad name then I guess our conversation is over.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Well if you're equating slavery to someone calling you a bad name then I guess our conversation is over.

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So name me some living former slaves? Name me ONE living former slave from when it was actually legal here. You can't because its been generations. Thus nobody alive has been affected by it in reality... so nobody alive has an excuse to complain.

Its over... it's been over for more than 150 years now, its not EVER coming back... so get over it.

Its no different than some loon having a bug up their but with Cherokee Indians because one of their ancesters were scalped by one 150 years ago. I'd tell them to get over it too.

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QUOTE by smoothy;
If someone called you a bad name 50+ years ago and someone won't let go of is indication of a mental disorder.

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Name calling is a lot different than subjugation, and even the name calling hasn't stopped. Your own derogatory comparisons are evidence of that.

Funny how we agree that people who cannot let it go, are suffering from a mental disorder, or in my own words, a bad attitude.

You won't get rid of affirmative action until you deal with what makes it necessary, discrimination of other peoples opportunities, or options. The existence of one, leads to the existence of the other. Wrong though they may be.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Name calling is a lot different than subjugation, and even the name calling hasn't stopped. Your own derogatory comparisons are evidence of that.

Funny how we agree that people who cannot let it go, are suffering from a mental disorder, or in my own words, a bad attitude.

You won't get rid of affirmative action until you deal with what makes it necessary, discrimination of other peoples opportunities, or options. The existence of one, leads to the existence of the other. Wrong though they may be.

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Geeze... Name ONE person alive that was a slave... or even who had a mother or father that was a slave. You can't...

They need therapy , that's what they need... to get over it.

You are aware American Indians held slaves... and not black ones either, other indians and whites... you don't hear their descendants crying about it all the damn time. That's because they got over it.

They need psychiatric help... thats what they all need.

Not a damn free ride for being lazy wastes of human flesh.

And that's all the whiners are... nothing more. Everyone else gets it...

But then... Democrats are today's KKK. They are the biggest group of rascists who practice and defend discrimination. Obviously THEY think they are superior to the people they discriminate against... you know... just like the KKK used to do.

Democrats don't believe in equality... and they certainly don't practice it.

Lazy people have less opportunities, because they are lazy. They ALL get a free education... and what is the graduation rate today? Among Minorities?. and exactly WHOSE fault is that? Not mine, not yours, its theirs, they own the responsibility, lock stock and barrell.

But then... lets give the drop outs medical licenses and make democrats go there... after all, they want to give them entitlements they didn't earn. Hey, lets see the left practice what they preach.

Or hire a droppout to defend you in court... why have the BAR exam, it discriminates against people that didn't go to Law School.

Why should they not get as much and the same as someone that actually went to school and studied.

Incidentally... my grandfather came here as a result of the Subjugation of the Irish by the British... I don't think they owe me anything. And he was treated here worse than any black was... I don't think I'm owed anything for it.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

But then......lets give the drop outs medical liscenses and make democrats go there....after all, they want to give them entitlements they didn't earn. Hey, lets see the left practice what they preach.

Or hire a droppout to defend you in court....why have the BAR exam, it discriminates against people that didn't go to Law School.

Why should they not get as much and the same as someone that actually went to school and studied.

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Hi smoothy,

The answer to that is no one gets a degree by claiming discrimination.

You know of some medical student dropouts who became doctors that don't have a MB BSc.

Are there two classes of MB's being issued at the moment? The lazy variety for dropouts and the gold standard variety for hard working students?

You know some dropouts practising law at the moment who have been admitted to the bar because they claimed discrimination?



As far as subjugation of the Irish by the British. Yes, you are owed something. You are owed the right of history not to make the same mistakes.


Tut

Hello smoothy:

The problem with your thinking, is that there was slavery, and then there wasn't... And everybody lived happily every after...

But, there's a lot of stuff that happened AFTER slavery ended that affirmative action is designed to rectify. You're ignoring it.. I don't know why. Maybe it makes your point.. But, not really, because the people you're arguing with HAVE a memory. Why do right wingers have selective memory?

excon

@TUT, very true, affirmative action gives you opportunity, not a guarantee.

@EX, Selective memory, and selective FACTS, but righties always have a passionate rant.

You are being very selective in your views.

Affirmative action is a government saying we are going to force you to change your views and actions, to take an action you would not ordinarily take. What remained after slavery was overthrown was racial discrimination because you can legislate labour laws but you can't legislate thought patterns

When it comes to slavery you have to look beyond forced labour, maintaining low wages is a form of slavery. What was overthrown was the idea of forced labour, the idea that one person could have property rights over another but what was not overthrown was the idea that one person could exploit another, this remains endemic

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Originally Posted by paraclete

You are being very selective in your views.

Affirmative action is a government saying we are going to force you to change your views and actions, to take an action you would not ordinarily take. What remained after slavery was overtrown was racial discrimination because you can legislate labour laws but you can't legislate thought patterns

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Hi Clete,

Affirmative action cannot force you to change your VIEWS, but it can force you to change your ACTIONS. Anyone can hold whatever views they like when it comes to race and religion. The only thing you can't do is act on some of these views in a discriminative way.

This was one of the points I was trying to make throughout this thread.

I may well practice gender discrimination. For example, I may refuse to talk to women in the work place and I may well prefer the company of only men in the lunch room. At morning tea, lunch and afternoon tea. But there is nothing illegal about my actions. I may well be considered wrong, immature, silly but my actions are not abhorrent.

If on the other hand, I practise racial discrimination in the work place then my views are illegal and many would say abhorrent as well. In both cases no one can make anyone change their views, we can only make them change their actions if the behaviour is deemed serious enough.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

When it comes to slavery you have to look beyond forced labour, maintaining low wages is a form of slavery. What was overthrown was the idea of forced labour, the idea that one person could have property rights over another but what was not overthrown was the idea that one person could exploit another, this remains endemic

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Yes, this is true. I guess we could say that it is attempt to change the behaviour. As you point out in doing so we don't necessarily change the attitude.

Tut

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Hi Clete,

Affirmative action cannot force you to change your VIEWS, but it can force you to change your ACTIONS. Anyone can hold whatever views they like when it comes to race and religion. The only thing you can't do is act on some of these views in a discriminative way.

This was one of the points I was trying to make throughout this thread.

I may well practice gender discrimination. For example, I may refuse to talk to women in the work place and I may well prefer the company of only men in the lunch room. at morning tea, lunch and afternoon tea. But there is nothing illegal about my actions. I may well be considered wrong, immature, silly but my actions are not abhorrent.

If on the other hand, I practise racial discrimination in the work place then my views are illegal and many would say abhorrent as well. In both cases no one can make anyone change their views, we can only make them change their actions if the behaviour is deemed serious enough.




Yes, this is true. I guess we could say that it is attempt to change the behaviour. As you point out in doing so we don't necessarily change the attitude.

Tut

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Hi Tut

Really there is a difference between affirmative action and anti-discrimination. Anti-discrimination makes discrimation on the basis or race, religion, gender, etc illegal and open to civil action. In other words the remedy lies in resort to the Law.

Affirmative action goes much further and requires that even though you may not discrimate you must actively discriminate on favour of certan groups, race, gender, ethnicity or culture so that even if they are not the best qualified they will be selected because you are meeting an imposed quota often much higher than the general representation of these groups in the population. This is basically unfair and can result in a dumbing down because of lower educational standards. Fortunately we are relatively free of it here and it is largely confined to government or the indigenous sector

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Hi Tut

really there is a difference between affirmative action and anti-discrimination. Anti-discrimination makes discrimation on the basis or race, religion, gender, etc illegal and open to civil action. In other words the remedy lies in resort to the Law.

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Yes, you are correct. I was using the term in its broadest sense. In the end I was 'stuck' for a way to draw the broader issues together.
But good observation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Affirmative action goes much further and requires that even though you may not discrimate you must actively discriminate on favour of certan groups, race, gender, ethnicity or culture so that even if they are not the best qualified they will be selected because you are meeting an imposed quota often much higher than the general representation of these groups in the population. This is basicly unfair and can result in a dumbing down becuase of lower educational standards. Fortunately we are relatively free of it here and it is largely confined to government or the indigenous sector

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Again, you are largely correct. I can understand your complaint if the situation arises whereby a university sets aside a certain number of places for a minority group and such entry is below the recommended standard.

However, it is not the case that these students sit a dumbed down medical exam while the brighter students sit for the proper exam. Not in this country anyway. I would also dispute any claim that such examinations are dumbed down for everybody. Again, not in this country. Australian universities enjoy a highly respected reputation worldwide in terms of the quality of graduate turned out.

Setting aside lower entry status is not that radical in universities these days. Such things as mature age entry and accreditation based on life experience seems to be the norm.

Tut

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello smoothy:

The problem with your thinking, is that there was slavery, and then there wasn't... And everybody lived happily every after...

But, there's a lot of stuff that happened AFTER slavery ended that affirmative action is designed to rectify. You're ignoring it.. I dunno why. Maybe it makes your point.. But, not really, because the people you're arguing with HAVE a memory. Why do right wingers have selective memory??

excon

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Doesn't matter... what you are talking about are people with issues THEY need to deal with and refuse to... and instead expect to screw the rest of us.

I am talking about people with personal issues... I won't go so far as claiming they are brain damaged.. because most aren't.

They are just too damn lazy to do the work it takes everyone else to do.

They for the most part refuse to study in school... whoes fault is that? Theirs

They for the most part prefer to not apply themselves and instead blame others. Whoes fault is that? Theirs.

THey for the most part expect things handed to them without working for them. Who's fault is that? THeirs.

They think its cool and drop out of High school to hang aout at all ours and play hoodlum. Dress like slobs... talk like they never went to school and then complain they can't get a $100K a year job right off the street.
Who's fault is that? Theirs.

Now the Democrats think they should get everything handed to them on a silver platter... and get any job they want... despite lacking the education, or experience... for no other reason than their skin color.

Because heaven forbid, they pick up a shovel, wash dishes or do anything that requires labor... like anyone else has to do.


And they bellyache about how there are no jobs in the inner city. Well, the Illegals seem to find lots of work... to the tune of well over 12 million of them.

As far as I'm concerned... and LOTS of others are too... this is 2011. Not 1911. Get over it already.

Hello again, smoothy:

I don't know how you can spew so much hatred in so little time.. It must take practice.

excon

So Clete once they get into college they don't have to go to the same classes as the rest of the first year college students? They don't have to make the same grades? Or when they get into the work force the boss doesn't require they do the work? I don't see the standard being lowered to meet quotas, but you imply the don't deserve to even have the opportunity to an education, job, or contract, and that's very much what affirmative action gives them, a chance that you would not.

What about the dumb lazy kid who gets accepted to a nice university because his rich daddy and even richer granddaddy went there? That's fair too isn't it? Did they dumb things down for him? No they paid some smart poor guy to do his homework and get his grades up. What about getting a contract while competing with a bigger company whose golf buddy needs something built?

You listen to guys like smoothy and you will hear nothing but hate and resentments, as he broad brushes everybody who doesn't have what he does as there fault, and even you on a smaller level show some resentment to those you consider lesser.

Actually, affirmative action is made for people like you two, who would dismiss and discriminate against others. I think you have shown you would discriminate if you could, if you had they opportunity too.

That would be as ugly as the system you hate so much.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy:

I dunno how you can spew so much hatred in so little time.. It must take practice.

excon

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Gee, you are one of the ones arguing Blacks and other minoritys are somehow inferior to the rest of us and NEED affirmative action just to have a chance.

I'm not the one that doesn't think they are equal in capacity or ability.

Anone that thinks a certain group NEEDS an unfair advantage just to "level the playing field" obviously assumes they need that because they aren't the equals of everyone else.

[QUOTE=smoothy;2895494]Gee, you are one of the ones arguing Blacks and other minoritys are somehow inferior to the rest of us and NEED affirmative action just to have a chance.{/quote] Absolute misrepresentation of his position and you know it. Intellectually dishonest. You should be ashamed of yourself.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

I'm not the one that doesn't think they are equal in capacity or ability.

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Oh really? Here are your words:

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Originally Posted by smoothy

They are just too damn lazy to do the work it takes everyone else to do.

They for the most part refuse to study in school....

They for the most part prefer to not apply themselves and instead blame others. ...

THey for the most part expect things handed to them without working for them. ...

They think its cool and drop out of High school to hang aout at all ours and play hoodlum. Dress like slobs...talk like they never went to school and then complain they can't get a $100K a year job right off the street.

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[QUOTE=NeedKarma;2895504]

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Gee, you are one of the ones arguing Blacks and other minoritys are somehow inferior to the rest of us and NEED affirmative action just to have a chance.{/quote] Absolute misrepresentation of his position and you know it. Intellectually dishonest. You should be ashamed of yourself.



Oh really? Here are your words:

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You have read the statistics for inner city schools haven't you? They speak for themselves. THEY are the ones underperforming... THEY are the ones dropping out... I said they are as capable as anyone else if they got off their butts and worked.

But then... cronyism is endemic with liberals, they all think they are entitled to something for nothing. They love delcaring themselves as a victim... then taking something off someone ELSE that actually earned it to give to the lazy "victim" to right some self induced problem.

Perhaps you would then agree that affirmative action is needed for Rural rednecks that are even more disadvantaged than inner city people are. But I suppose they don't rate because of skin color? More Liberal hypocrisy I see. Or is it really Liberal rascism?

Regardless of anyone's opinion on this how on earth could it be enforced since ugliness is way more subjective than race or gender?

Unless we are all obliged to wear the niqab and full body padding for all job interviews... And maybe use a voice modulator...

There is always someone who wants to take a debate like this and twist it. When I spoke of dumbing down I wasn't speaking of education but of employment. If you don't take the best qualified candidate you have the risk of dumbing down. Often the requirements for a position are artificial anyway and a person of lesser qualification can easily do what is required, but the requirements are there to set a benchmark or even a barrier to entry and if you have to breach the benchmark because of a quota then your freedom has been infringed. Look at your film industry and the mandatory inclusion of coloured people so you get quite ridiculous outcomes in period settings. It isn't a question of whether they can do the job

Tut you must have observed that in this country organisations dealing with indigenous persons go beyond affirmative action when recruiting and are not challenged but when a church organisation seeks persons of certain persuasions they will be challenged

Hey Clete, business is about making money, where ever and how ever, and qualifications are subjective to the need to make cold cash. They don't care about quotas, either and if they can market a colored guy to get some green, they will.

What you thought you were more valuable and more qualified than a monkey who gets paid bananas? Think again. The monkey wins, but you are as much a slave as the indigenous rabble you worked so hard to separate from.

We all are Clete, slaves to the system, you just like to think your hard work and qualifications makes you special, or better. You are not, you serve at the discretion of the boss like the rest of us slaves.

Since you know nothing about me you make assumptions and that only makes an as$ out of you. I long since ceased to be a slave to the system and yes, hard work, and qualifications, lift you above the rabble and should not be denigrated because some minority thinks it should be placed at the head of the queue.

You live in a place where discrimation has been endemic, I don't. When I see the B/S that originated in your place being applied in mine I feel maligned because I have not discriminated in hiring. Opportunities abound here, but all minorities do is whinge about their disadvantage

Therefore Tal I am not a slave and I know that when it comes to making money you take the best qualified. If you want someone who speaks a different language you take that person who speaks that language

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Tut you must have observed that in this country organisations dealing with indigenous persons go beyond affirmative action when recruiting and are not challenged but when a church organisation seeks persons of certain persuasions they will be challenged

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Hi Clete,

Yes, there is always that danger if you are talking affirmative action and employment.

I don't know the answer to that. In fact, I don't think there is an answer in terms that will suit everybody. I understand the problem someone would have who applies for a job and it is given to a less qualified person based factors other than merit. It would make them rather angry.

On the other hand everyone deserves and opportunity at employment. At the expense of someone else? I don't know, but I think we have a moral obligation to try in that area.

Affirmative action and racism is a highly complex and controversial topic. In this thread there have been some attempts to give a simplified account of racism and affirmative action that fits neatly into a particular world view. The issues don't lend themselves to this type of analysis.


Tut

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Originally Posted by smoothy

You have read the statistics for inner city schools haven't you? They speak for themselves. THEY are the ones underperforming...THEY are the ones dropping out.... I said they are as capible as anyone else if they got off their butts and worked.

But then.....cronyism is endemic with liberals, they all think they are entitled to something for nothing. They love delcaring themselves as a victim....then taking something off someone ELSE that actually earned it to give to the lazy "victim" to right some self induced problem.

Perhaps you would then agree that affirmative action is needed for Rural rednecks that are even more disadvantaged than inner city people are. But I suppose they don't rate because of skin color? More Liberal hypocracy I see. Or is it really Liberal rascism?

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Hi Smoothy,

I can see ( at least I think I can see) why you think affirmative action is a type of racism.

Racism is the belief that a persons race results in inherent differences in ability. Ability to achieve a high I.Q. mark, the ability to maintain constant employment. Yes,even the ability to tolerate extremes in weather conditions.

The important point is the belief that these things cannot be changed because they are encoded in particular groups genes. We could say that a persons genes are the INHIBITING FACTORS when it comes to competing with the rest of society.

To hold such views is of course racist. On this basis affirmative action should be a racist doctrine. After all it discriminates on the basis of a persons race. It looks at different racial groups and discriminates in favour of a group. Right or wrong?

Affirmative action is saying that because of your GENETIC INHIBITING FACTORS you will not compete successfully in society? Therefore we should discriminate against you in a positive rather than negative way? Right or wrong?

I think this is the crux of your affirmative action equals racism position. Again,I think this is what you are saying but I am sure you will correct me if I've got it wrong.

This is a complete misunderstanding of what affirmative action is about. Affirmative actions says the inhibiting factors to achievement are NOT found within the genes of a person or group but ARE FOUND within the structures of society. Big difference here.

On this basis affirmative action is not a form of Liberal racism. It is not any form of racism.


Tut

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Since you know nothing about me you make assumptions and that only makes an as$ out of you. I long since ceased to be a slave to the system and yes, hard work, and qualifications, lift you above the rabble and should not be denigrated because some minority thinks it should be placed at the head of the queue.

You live in a place where discrimination has been endemic, I don't. When I see the B/S that originated in your place being applied in mine I feel maligned because I have not discriminated in hiring. Opportunities abound here, but all minorities do is whine about their disadvantage

Therefore Tal I am not a slave and I know that when it comes to making money you take the best qualified. If you want someone who speaks a different language you take that person who speaks that language

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You can't be saying that what we are doing here is screwing up what you do there are you? Why Clete, that makes no sense, and suggests that we here tell you what to do. Doubt it. Its more like you have your own issues as a country to deal with, as do they all, so don't blame what's wrong in your neck of the woods on anyone but yourself. What ever BS being applied there is done by the ones there.

Like my friend smoothy, I bet you don't know enough about minorities to say they are all whiners about there disadvantages, yet you probably have an example or two that you justifies you painting the whole group with thee same brush.

No I don't know you personally, but I have read what you have been writing, and do not agree, big deal, and I call you on it. I have been doing my thing, as long as you have, and my view is much different.

"But for the grace of God go I", and because you escaped the rabble, doesn't mean we can't go back.

Tut Affirmative action is a form of racism just as it is a form of discrimination. Just because it is government sponsored doesn't make it right. I don't care that universities give some places to those who can't qualify by other means because I know they sink or swim on their own merits, nor do I care that the government spends money training people for jobs they may never get. I do care when the employment of these people is mandated just as I care when the employment of a certain number of migrants is mandated

Tal It may have escaped your notice but ideas like people have an unfortunate habit of migrating and many unwanted ideas arrive on our shores with well meaning experts who just have to tell us about their latest cause or they are brought here by public servants who have had their little junket and have to justify it. We don't have much of a lecture circuit but they come anyway. It is a great shame the traffic never seems to go the other way

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Tut Affirmative action is a form of racism just as it is a form of discrimination. Just because it is government sponsored doesn't make it right. I don't care that universities give some places to those who can't qualify by other means because I know they sink or swim on their own merits, nor do I care that the government spends money training people for jobs they may never get. I do care when the employment of these people is mandated just as I care when the employment of a certain number of migrants is mandated

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Hi Clete,

I jump in before somebody else does and claim that discrimination is a form of racism.

Ok, you've won me over. Affirmative action is wrong for the reasons you have outlined. However, that changes nothing when we come to examining the claim that affirmative action is a form of racism. Even though affirmative action is mistaken and governments are ill advised on the matter it makes no difference to the arguments I have outlined previously.

Racism is discrimination based on physical appearance. In other words, some type of physical appearance denotes you belonging to a particular race. It could be skin colour, shape of eyes, type of hair. It can be any number of recognizable physical characteristics which allow us to say that this person belongs to a certain racial group.

The important point is that having an aversion to a particular skin colour or eye shape is not racism. It is just an aversion. It becomes racism if we decide that a particular physical characteristic is due to a persons genetic make up (nothing wrong that so far). Certain genotypes will give rise to recognizable phenotypes.

It is racist when we decide that a persons genotype ( recognized by us a phenotype) is an inhibiting factor when it comes to I.Q. work ethic, lack of morality and the like. In other words, we are saying it is their genes that are the determining or inhibiting factor in all of this. They cannot achieve the same standards as us because they are limited by their genetic make up.

It is a belief that the limiting factors are contained within the persons make up and cannot be changed. This is what racism is all about. Such mistaken beliefs were given freedom of expression in the past when governments institutionalized such beliefs.

Affirmative action today seeks to make amends for the past by discriminating in favour of certain racial and ethnic groups. OK, affirmative action is wrong, mistaken misguided, what every you like to call it. But you cannot call it racist because it says that the inhibiting factors and not within the individual but are contained within the structure of society.

That's why affirmative action cannot be racist.

Tut

Tut I would love to get into anthropological arguments with you but I don't have the data, I am aware that a study was done which indicated that certain racial groups scored much lower than others. I don't know to what extent this might have been cultural rather than genetic but it did indicate that there might be reasons for suggesting that some groups may not be as bright as others

Whether affirmative action is racist or not depends upon who is making the decisions. It is observable for example that women tend to hire women, discrimination yes, but could this also carry over racially with people more likely to hire their own race for whatever reason