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They are... that's why I disagree with the classical left /right spectrum. Under the classical spectrum the more you go to the polls ,the more oppressive your philosophy making some centrist marshmallow non-committed philosophy the most free ? BS .Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
So, they can't CHOOSE who they want to marry?? Doesn't sound FREE to me...
I understand.. You believe in FREEDOM, all right.. But, ONLY for YOURSELF and your friends. The OTHER guy need not apply.. That isn't freedom. It's not even close.
excon
PS> What about the 12 million illegal immigrants? Are they on your list? I think they ARE.
Illegals have all the rights that illegals have under the constitution. Since they are foreigners subject to the legal jurisdiction where they are ;then yes ,they actually do have some constitutional rights.
My solutions to the problem is a lot less severe than some. Yet ,in my view ,they are still foreigners invading by another means.
They can choose anyone from the opposite sex, and are free to do so , if they want to call it a marriage. I deny them nothing regarding rights.Quote:
So, they can't CHOOSE who they want to marry?? Doesn't sound FREE to me...
Hello again, tom:
We can go on and on, as we have over the years... However, it'll do no good.. After pointing out that you have a LIST of people who DON'T qualify for freedom in your book, you STILL have the gall to say that YOUR party is the FREEDOM party, when I've shown time and time again, that you're not.
I see that my work here is NOT yet complete.
excon
I said nothing about 'Party' . I am unaffiliated .
Now you've gone from 'constitutional rights' to 'freedom' . Make up your mind. BTW.. I said nothing of 'freedom 'either... I said liberty.
Really :DQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Liberty - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster DictionaryQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
What's your definition?Quote:
the quality or state of being free:
Read some Thomas Hobbes, John Locke ,John Stuart Mill .That will give you a better idea of liberty than Webster.
So we must always assume you are using connotations instead of the usual denotations?
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
They can choose from a list of people that you APPROVE of. If they DON'T pick somebody from YOUR list, they get NO rights..
So, they're free all right - to do what YOU want them to do... That ain't freedom. It ain't close. It ain't liberty either.
excon
Why ? Have I outlawed their behavior ? No . Do they get the same cohabitation rights as any other couple ? Under my plan yes.
Just to get us back on theme, the spooks will now help the police find the organisers of the UK riots
MI5 called in to find organisers of riots
Seems it takes some experise to break through the encription of our more up market devices and so the full force of the state is used to spoil the fun of the rioters. Just how much will they spend to find that 12year old
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Hi Tom,
I think I get it.
You see the classical left/right spectrum as having fascism on the right side. I think you want it on the left side along with totalitarianism, theocracy, socialism and communism.
On that basis there is no such thing as right wing theism, right wing totalitarianism and right wing fascism? If this is the case then there needs to be a rewriting of history and political science books.
Tut
Tut ;let's start with a less linear spectrum... that may do well for elementary understanding of history but is completely inadequate for understanding politics beyond a basal level .
Clete ;the State is going to use the same technology used by the thugs to track down the ring leaders and agitators. Excon thinks the state is oppressive if it does so . My position has been more nuianced so I ask again... When /where is the line crossed ?
Hi TomQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
It seems to me your political analysis fits very well into a linear representation. Isn't that why you posed such a representation in the first place?
Adding further axes to the spectrum would only serve to support my position. That is you cannot represent politics as a one dimensional representation.
Tut
It is hard to know when the line is crossed Google (gmail)was just used to track down the hoax bomber here as was security cameras, so a crime was committed and a criminal found, even though he had fled to the US, but what we are speaking about here is something preemptive, police hanging out on Facebook, etc looking for a possible flash event, so they need some sort of alert mechanism unless they are targeting a particular individual and that makes whatever they are doing presumptive. Their software will be the sort used by national security services to search for particular word associations. Twitter should be very concerned because this strikes at the very heart of the service they provide and provides a net which might trap innocent individuals who will have to prove their innocence. This is not France, we have the right of the presumption of innocenceQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
There are people here who claim Lincoln abused executive powers even as rebel armies were threatening to invade the Capitol.
Under classical liberal philosophy (Locke) sometimes the executive must exert authority in meeting
'exigencies' or “emergencies” for which the legislative power provided no relief
Or existing law granted no necessary remedy. He did not regard this prerogative as
Limited to wartime, or even to situations of great urgency. It was sufficient if the
“public good” might be advanced by its exercise. Here in the US it is called 'implied powers' of the President .
That's OK by me in a nation that can hold the executive accountable. But the same procedures you say the Brits will use has been practiced by the Iranian regime to dismantle a legitimate revolution against a real tyranny.
No I posted it to dispute this outrageous contention that national socialism has anything in common with a 'conservative' (ie classical liberal ) philosophy.Quote:
Originally Posted by TUT317
Hi again Tom,Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
If you reject the simplified linear representation for a 'complex' representation then you would have to support the idea that national socialism has at least a limited amount of things in common with the conservative position. This type of approach is reflected in the article you posted in relation to the economic similarities of socialism and fascism. That is the nature of the multiple axis model, which I agree is more accurate.
However, you can't assign a separate category for conservatism because you feel it is somehow different. You can do this in a one dimensional representation.
Tut
If I'm going to post a linear spectrum then I'm going to assign polls that I think are more accurate.
If liberty is defined in the amt of control the government has on the individual then I would place conservatism on the end that reflects more liberty... and socialistic models ,that concede liberties to the state ,on the other side of the spectrum .
Hi Tom,Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
If that is what you are trying to demonstrate then the linear model serves that purpose well. I think most people would agree that conservatism reflects more liberty.
A complexer model demonstrates the similarities and differences found within the varies ideologies.
Tut
Hello again, TUT:Quote:
Originally Posted by TUT317
No, they don't!
Let's talk about liberty ON THE GROUND instead of the highfaluting rhetoric going on here. Besides, I don't even know what a troglodyte is.
Although the attempt behind the Patriot Act was to "protect" America, it TOOK AWAY civil rights that we had. Conservatives did that... Even though Gitmo was supposed to PROTECT Americans, it TOOK AWAY our Fifth Amendment right to due process of law. Conservatives did that. Even though preventing gays the right to marry supposedly preserves American values, it DENY'S rights to a MAJOR portion of the American population. Conservatives did that. Even though allowing the government to READ our email and LISTEN in on our phone calls is supposed to make us safer, it is NOTHING like liberty or freedom in my book. Conservatives did that...
On the other hand, it IS true that the socialistic fire department that we all depend on, TAKES away the rights of the PRIVATE fire department's to find work. That's not freedom for them. It IS true that black children who were forced to learn in segregated classrooms were FREED by LIBERALS... Conservatives didn't like that.. In fact, they'd LIKE to go back to that era...
I could go on, but you get my drift... Conservatives LOVE freedom - for THEMSELVES, and THEMSELVES ONLY.
excon
The race card you carry is so big it doesn't fit in your pocket. Your narrative suffers however from historical inacurracy even as it has become a well polished slander.Quote:
It IS true that black children who were forced to learn in segregated classrooms were FREED by LIBERALS... Conservatives didn't like that.. In fact, they'd LIKE to go back to that era...
I remind you that the god of the American liberals Roosevelt appointed KKK'ers into SCOTUS like Hugo Black and segregationists like Jimmy Byrnes (ultimately becoming one of Roosevelt's top advisors) . The libs for years returned KKK'er Kleagle Robert Byrd to the Senate. Governor and later Dem Senator Senator Ernest Hollings was a proud segregationist.
Among the Dems during the very "liberal" Johnson era were liberal Dems who very much opposed the 1964 Civil Rights act including :
J. William Fulbright,a man Bill Clinton considers his mentor ;- Albert Gore Sr ,father of the Goracle ;Sam Ervin of Watergate hearings fame ;Richard Russell ,who's name is used for the Senate office building .
40% of the House Democrats VOTED AGAINST the Civil Rights Act, while 80% of Republicans SUPPORTED it.
It was a Republican President who sent Federal troops to the South to enforce desegregation as it was Republican adminstrations after the Civil War that used Federal troops during the Reconstruction era .
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
You are correct. But, the Democrats who voted against it became the new CONSERVATIVE Republican majority in the south.
I repeat. Black children were freed from segregated schools by LIBERALS. Ending segregation was opposed by CONSERVATIVES..
excon
You can have your false narrative of history . You would have to bring more to the table to prove the outrageous assertion that conservatives today want to return to the days of segregation.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
The Wake County, N.C., school district has dismantled its integration policy. A new conservative school board took over, filled with Tea Party members who decided to abolish initiatives to integrate schools along racial and class lines.
Charles and David Koch, billionaire brothers and Tea Party backers bankrolled the local Tea Party candidates.
Anything else?
excon
Forced busing proved to be a colossal failure wherever it was tried in the past ;especially in liberal Boston. Doing it under a different name produces the same failures. I'll argue that the money wasted on busing programs would be better spent in improvements in the district schools .
Are the parents given a choice ? No . I'll believe the parents want their children bused to other schools when a system of vouchers is initiated where the parent indeed gets to choose which school their children go to.
You proved nothing in this example. I'll point to the Orthodox community near me that has a majority board membership in a diverse community who consistently vote in their parochrial best interests. Does that make them racists ? If you are telling me that schools within the same district were getting unequal funding and resources then you may have a case. But no one has made that claim.
Edit :
How did busing work out in liberal Seattle ? Well ;turns out it was a 2 decade nightmare.
HistoryLink.org- the Free Online Encyclopedia of Washington State HistoryQuote:
Initially limited to a few thousand middle school students, by 1981 nearly 40 percent of all the district’s students were being bused for racial reasons. School officials defended busing against several legal challenges but gradually scaled back the program in response to waning public support. The district’s own data showed that busing disproportionately burdened children of color, undercut academic achievement, inhibited parental involvement, contributed to so-called "white flight,” and did little to reduce racial isolation in the schools. By 1999, when race-based busing finally ended in Seattle, it was widely regarded as "one of those well-intentioned social experiments that don't work"
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I got it. It's CHEAPER to keep the niggers down on the farm, huh? I'll bet that was the SAME argument the Tea Party School board used when they TOOK AWAY the RIGHTS of the little black children.
Like I said above... Conservatives LOVE freedom for THEMSELVES, and THEMSELVES only
excon
For Ex so we can get this thread back on theme. Ex you say you don't know what a trogladite is. Let the urban dictionary help you, by the way the other descriptions were unprintable
Trogladite
From the prehistoric insects that lived in caves, troglodite is someone who is "out of it," or not "up" on pop culture.
Trogladite
A female who has been generously whipped with the ugly stick.
Trogladite
A mutant creature so vile, its very presence causes famine, slavery and apartheid. Extreme cases result in genocide.
We were discussing the attitude of the UK PM who wants to shut down social media to prevent urban violence
Hello again, clete:Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
I appreciate your attempt to keep the thread on point.. However, I'll answer as I please.
excon
Don't be a trogladite Ex by the way here's an example closer to homeQuote:
Originally Posted by excon
We'd shut off mobiles again, says US transport official after protest
You want to discuss racial issues let's have a new thread.
Hello again, clete:Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
If you could keep up, you wouldn't have to call names.
excon
Why should I slow down for you Ex be careful you are not being lappedQuote:
Originally Posted by excon
If you think that my opinion that spending money to improve schools is the equivalence of saying " keep the niggers down on the farm" then that is a discussion ender. I'm not going to waste my time responding to that.
Like I said you have a convenient race card in your pocket that most libs use when they can't forward a debate . It will only work on me if I take the bate... I won't . Think of me as you will . It's the patronizing liberal attitude that thinks a Black child can't learn unless they sit next to a white student .
Busing has a record of failure .It failed to achieve it's goals and it diverted resources to improve schools . It led to a continued decline of the inner city schools .
The record of our education system's decline with decades of liberal policies is a matter of public record. You as a proponent of progressive policies own that record not me. It is across the board liberal policies that have hurt the prospects of African-Americans in this country . Your own Seattle school district saw busing as a bad idea and abandoned it. Most districts in the country have followed suit .Wake County is late to the game .
From the article I posted :
Quote:
By the late 1980s, the voices of dissent were coming from all sides, including some of the same white liberals and African Americans who had originally endorsed busing. Critics complained that the Seattle Plan unfairly burdened children of color; contributed to a widening achievement gap between white and minority students; undermined public confidence in the schools, particularly among middle-class parents; left some schools under-enrolled while others were over-enrolled, and was too costly and complex.
Quote:
By the early 1990s, some of the most vocal critics of mandatory busing were African Americans, including the charismatic John H. Stanford (1938-1998), superintendent of Seattle schools from 1995 to 1998. In a key presentation to the School Board in November 1995, Stanford said the data showed that low-income students who attended schools outside their neighborhoods scored lower on achievement tests than low-income students in neighborhood schools. Furthermore, parental involvement in the schools was lowest among bused students, who often needed it the most.Stanford also noted that about one-fourth of Seattle's school-aged children were enrolled in private schools, a far higher percentage than in comparable cities without mandatory busing. In some white, middle-class neighborhoods in Seattle, only about half the children were choosing public over private schools, compared to 90 percent of those in racially mixed, poorer neighborhoods. Stanford urged the board to put more emphasis on the quality of the education in the classroom and less on the color of the skin on the students. "I don't have to sit next to someone of another color to learn,"he said, in an oft-quoted remark (Seattle Post-Intelligencer, 1999).
Hello again, tom:
Bussing doesn't work in the long run. It was a short term solution in the hopes that full societal integration would follow. It happened here. That's why bussing ended. If it didn't happen in NC, there were other considerations at work. Maybe there is a flavor of racism there that's absent here.
I really don't know.. What I DO know, is that integration works even if bussing to achieve it, doesn't. So, instead of throwing up their hands and going back to the way it was, the school board should have made OTHER attempts to solve the problem. The key here is that they WENT BACK to the way it was.
Now, I don't know if the school boards action reflects the wish's of the Koch brothers, but I can put two and two together.
excon
I don't know the Koch Bros. All I know about them is the harping the left does about them . I know no one who takes their marching orders from them . I heard of the policies that have become the platform of conservatives and the TP long before I heard of them . So at best they've identified a group of people who are like minded and they have $$ to contribute.
It's a much a waste of time to hold the Koch Bros responsible for TP positions as it would be for me to try to make the case that Soros is a puppet master to the progressive movement. I know what organizations he funds .It would be silly for me to say that Soros predates the progressive platform.
So what do I know of the TP and conservative platforms ? We believe that the best way to advance education is to give parents choice through charter schools , vouchers ,and tuition credits ,teacher accountabilty which includes merit pay for outstanding teachers .
If the Koch Bros support that then I'm happy they are funding groups to advance it.
Clete the debate is happening here although flash mob violence has not escalated to the degree that it has in the UK... yet.
Cameron has not suggested a wholesale shutting down of access to social media ;but is considering the possibility for anyone suspected of using it for criminal activity.
Here during a 4th of July celebration a violent flash mob in Cleveland "spontaneously " erupted . That prompted the City Council to pass a measure (eventually vetoed by the Mayor ) that made it illegal to use social media to incite violence.
You cite the BART example . They went too far. In that case it was to protest against alleged police brutality .
In LA a DJ sent out a twitter message that had possibly thousands converge on Hollywood Blv. The crowd became rowdy . The city ;caught unaware ,had to waste valuable resources to crowd control. Such a demonstration would require obtaining a permit under normal and reasonable times . The DJ should be given a bill for the service the authorities were forced to use for the stunt.
Near-riot in Hollywood: Tourists caught up in 'Electric Daisy' chaos - latimes.com
Hi Tom
We see this sort of thing with gate crashers at parties, it hasn't become particularly violent but it wastes police time, like dealing with a 1,000 people crashing a party. I would not like to see Cronulla or Redfern again with an escalation of rabble rousing on social media, it was used relatively ineffectively then. What I don't want to see is police powers which can shut down communication networks and that is what is at the root of the UK proposals, and unfortunately bad ideas have a habit of migrating
Especially when the voice of the free world is mute when real tyrants employ those methods.Quote:
and unfortunately bad ideas have a habit of migrating
Voice of the free world. Likely to be the first to implement the methods. Free is a much overused concept.
More proof that the trogladites are here in force.
Police scramble to fight flash-mob mayhem - CNN.com
Kansas City sets youth curfew after weekend shooting | Reuters
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