Ask Me Help Desk - The monster in Norway

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Are we really getting so damned literal that you guys can't understand "they" to mean only the Islamic terrorists I'm referring to? Really?

I don't mean to put you in a corner here, but I just want to point out the distinction that we should be making here.

You said yourself that their excuse is their religion tells them to kill us. Do you ACCEPT that excuse?

What I'm saying is that I DON'T accept that. I KNOW that MOST Muslims are peaceful, I KNOW that their religion does NOT demand they kill us.

Just as you DON'T accept that Breivik is Christian, and I DON'T accept that anything he did was truly in the name of Christian culture, morals, or God... I DON'T accept that Al-Qaeda are Islamic...

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Originally Posted by southamerica

Steve, a Jihad is an inner struggle of spiritual man against his human self.

Once again, jahidists are just manipulating the word for their evil.

I know all of this, I've been around a while.

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But really, there have been TONS of Christian terrorists... we can start with the crusades, move over to India, and then to Northern Ireland, take a stop in Kansas, and then head on over to Norway. I missed A LOT in there.

Today, list all the known Christian terrorists operating today. The Crusades are irrelevant, the last known crusade ended around 1434, 577 years ago.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

Always?

excon

Yes sir. In spite of all the efforts to portray me as having never done so, I always have.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Today, list all the known Christian terrorists operating today. The Crusades are irrelevant, the last known crusade ended around 1434, 577 years ago.

That would take research on my end as I don't keep up with the names or operations of Christian terrorists any more than I do Islamic terrorists.

If I were to do that research and come up with my list, and yours were bigger... what conclusion would you draw, and where would it take this debate/conversation?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Today, list all the known Christian terrorists operating today.

Hello again, Steve:

I can't. But, I betcha Homeland Security can. And, I betcha there's LOTS of them. Surly, you don't doubt that there ARE Christian terrorists... Or, maybe you do.

See... Here's my problem... Frankly, I think there are MANY right wing militias - SOME of which are planning violence upon our country, and whose members HAPPEN to BE Christian... I'll bet some of them even PRAY a LOT too, and maybe wear crosses on their camo's. Given your definition of Muslim terrorism, seems to me these groups could be called Christian terrorists.

But, calling them Christian terrorists would BLIND us to who the REAL terrorists are - kind of like what YOU do with Muslims... That blindness has caused two, maybe three, noooo, four - Ok, FIVE wars to have been started by us.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

See... Here's my problem... Frankly, I think there are MANY right wing militias, SOME of which are planning violence upon our country

I hope you're wrong :(

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Originally Posted by southamerica

I don't mean to put you in a corner here, but I just want to point out the distinction that we should be making here.

You said yourself that their excuse is their religion tells them to kill us. Do you ACCEPT that excuse?

I didn't say it was an excuse, with Islamic terrorists it's their motivation.

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What I'm saying is that I DON'T accept that. I KNOW that MOST Muslims are peaceful, I KNOW that their religion does NOT demand they kill us.

Agreed.

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Just as you DON'T accept that Breivik is Christian, and I DON'T accept that anything he did was truly in the name of Christian culture, morals, or God... I DON'T accept that Al-Qaeda are Islamic...

OK, maybe they aren't true Muslims, I'm not a Muslim so I'm in no position to make that judgment. I can't say whether someone is or isn't a Christian either. I can say the Phelps behavior is not Christian.

My question to you is, why is it virtually every Christian denomination, group and individual is quick to denounce any atrocity and distance themselves from any that sully the name of our God, but you don't see many Muslims jumping to denounce terror done in the name of their god? Where are all those moderate Muslims?

I actually don't know a lot of Muslims, and I know our media wouldn't give the denouncing Muslims airtime.

I have read a couple autobiographies/biographies (3 cups of tea and In the Land of Invisible Women stick out for this). I'm only taking the author's word for it, but in 3 Cups of Tea, the Muslims in Pakistan spat at the Afghan border because of the 9/11 attacks. They called Osama bin Laden an abomination. The author said that all of the tribesmen and Pakistani men and a couple Afghan men on the other border were disgusted with ObL and Al-Qaeda, and supported America.

So... I don't know, maybe we don't hear about it because no one gives those people airtime, or we don't KNOW those people.

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Originally Posted by excon

I can't.

I can do my part, why can't you list any?

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But, I betcha Homeland Security can.

Oh yeah, they've already put out their right-wing warning remember? The Obama administration jumped into the fear-mongering with both feet early on.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Where are all those moderate Muslims?

Hello again, Steve:

How many would satisfy you? How hard to you look for them? You DO know that most Christians have radios and can read... You DO know that most Muslims don't.

If the point you're trying to make, is that because you don't HEAR an outcry, means (1) there isn't one, which, of course, means (2) they SUPPORT the terrorists... If THAT'S your point, I think you're dead wrong...

But, EVEN if there wasn't one word of denunciation... It means NOTHING... I certainly don't denounce every wrong that people who look like me perpetrate. That does NOT mean I support them.

excon

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Originally Posted by southamerica

I actually don't know a lot of Muslims, and I know our media wouldn't give the denouncing Muslims airtime.

Oh they would give them air time, if more Muslims would do so the media could stop being apologists for Islam and let them speak for themselves. Look, I'm not saying Muslims haven't spoke out, some have. All should. If they are troubled by terror done in their name they would speak as Christians do when someone inevitably links us to some atrocity. What the Oslo monster did is appalling, we pray for and sympathize with the victims, and we denounce it in the strongest terms.

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Originally Posted by excon

If the point you're trying to make, is that because you don't HEAR an outcry, means (1) there isn't one, which, of course, means (2) they SUPPORT the terrorists... If THAT'S your point, I think you're dead wrong...

Read my last post and stop guessing what I mean.

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But, EVEN if there wasn't one word of denunciation... It means NOTHING... I certainly don't denounce every wrong that people who look like me perpetrate. That does NOT mean I support them.

Maybe that's because no one is trying to unfairly link to you any atrocity. The left and their media sympathizers are quick to apologize for Islam and quicker to blame Christians and conservatives for any evil before any evidence is in to support it. The guy in Kentucky that killed himself, the Tucson shooter, the Oslo killings, the Tiller Killer, the debt discussions... anything and everything is blamed on us, most of the time without merit. If you were blamed for everything evil under the sun unfairly you'd change your tune.

P.S. Heck, we probably killed Amy Winehouse, too

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Oh they would give them air time, if more Muslims would do so the media could stop being apologists for Islam and let them speak for themselves. Look, I'm not saying Muslims haven't spoke out, some have. All should. If they are troubled by terror done in their name they would speak as Christians do when someone inevitably links us to some atrocity. What the Oslo monster did is appalling, we pray for and sympathize with the victims, and we denounce it in the strongest terms.

It might not be fair to compare how a Christian reacts to how a Muslim reacts. Two extremely different cultures.

Just look at how Japan and USA differ in how they remember Pearl Harbor/Hiroshima.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

If you were blamed for everything evil under the sun unfairly you'd change your tune.

Hey Steve:

I'm a Jew.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:
You DO know that most Christians have radios and can read... You DO know that most Muslims don't.

Excellent point. Much of the Middle Eastern countries severely underfund their education systems, and those that are funded are funded BY extremist groups. (My source is, again, 3 Cups of Tea)

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Originally Posted by excon

Hey Steve:

I'm a Jew.

I get it, but who is blaming Jews for things such as I mentioned?

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Originally Posted by excon

I'm a Jew.

Name ONE instance that your people were blamed for something and massively prosecuted for it.

Oh, wait...

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Originally Posted by southamerica

It might not be fair to compare how a Christian reacts to how a Muslim reacts. Two extremely different cultures.

Just look at how Japan and USA differ in how they remember Pearl Harbor/Hiroshima.

People are people. Muslims in the west have no excuse for not being quick to denounce terror in their name.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I get it, but who is blaming Jews for things such as I mentioned?

Maybe I need some help with the "things such as I mentioned" portion of your question. Do you mean linking Jews with terrorism?

I'm sure you don't mean linking Jews to atrocities. Just in the last centuries, Jews have been blamed for major wars, failed economies, and banker take-overs. That doesn't even go into the more ancient prosecution of Jews.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

People are people. Muslims in the west have no excuse for not being quick to denounce terror in their name.

True, I can't recall hearing about a big denunciation of Al-Qaeda by any Muslims.

I've had a friend from Pakistan denounce Islam because of Al-Qaeda. But he's the only Muslim friend I've had...

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Originally Posted by southamerica

Maybe I need some help with the "things such as I mentioned" portion of your question. Do you mean linking Jews with terrorism?

Um, no. I said, "The guy in Kentucky that killed himself, the Tuscon shooter, the Oslo killings, the Tiller Killer, the debt discussions..."

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I'm sure you don't mean linking Jews to atrocities. Just in the last centuries, Jews have been blamed for major wars, failed economies, and banker take-overs. That doesn't even go into the more ancient prosecution of Jews.

Like I said to ex, I get it. To be more clear, you don't see talking heads in this country on TV or in print rushing to link Jews with things such as the examples I gave. You will find them quickly, almost too choreographed, rush to deem something the work of a Christian, a conservative, a far-right extremist or just paint us as "right-wing extremists" for as little as wanting congress to cut spending.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I get it, but who is blaming Jews for things such as I mentioned?

Hello again, Steve

Amy Winehouse? Let me look.

excon

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Like I said to ex, I get it. To be more clear, you don't see talking heads in this country on TV or in print rushing to link Jews with things such as the examples I gave. You will find them quickly, almost too choreographed, rush to deem something the work of a Christian, a conservative, a far-right extremist or just paint us as "right-wing extremists" for as little as wanting congress to cut spending.

Oh okay gotcha, sorry for my misunderstanding.

And I can't agree with you more about the media rushing to blame the right-wing extremists.

Sure there are extremists, and sure they're nutty, and sure they've done some crazy stuff. BUT I'm rather sick of everything conservative being blown off as "right-wing" and therefore not worth even considering.

Trust me, it's irritated me many times. There are conservative things that I very much agree with, but they don't stand much of a chance because of how the media has painted conservatives.

That's why I hate the media. Bunch of trolls!

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Originally Posted by southamerica

Oh okay gotcha, sorry for my misunderstanding.

Not a problem. And yes, conservatives have something to add but we can't get a word in edgewise because we're all presumably dangerous nuts.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Not a problem. And yes, conservatives have something to add but we can't get a word in edgewise because we're all presumably dangerous nuts.

Until, of course, we have a Republican president and anything liberal is nuts ;)

I particularly remember not being "for" the war on terror in 2005, and a friend of mine yelling "terrorist sympathizer!" at me... which was definitely a heavy sentiment at the time.

It's sad, really. People ought to just breath and think for themselves.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Not a problem. And yes, conservatives have something to add but we can't get a word in edgewise because we're all presumably dangerous nuts.

Hello again, Steve:

I don't know... You always tell us how FOX beats the crap out of MSNBC... That's a word or two edgewise... Then you got a 60 to 1 advantage in the talk radio business. Nobody wants to listen to lefty's on the radio...

So, from MY perspective, you get your words in. You get a LOT of words in. But, even with ALL those words, you're still depicted as dangerous nuts. I don't know why. Ok, yes I do.

excon

Yes, conservative talk radio is quite a big deal...

Alex Jones WOULD be all right with me if he weren't so angry!

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

I dunno... You always tell us how FOX beats the crap outta MSNBC... That's a word or two edgewise....

That's cable news only. Fox' biggest draw, O'Reilly, gets 3.1 million. The 3 networks evening newscasts total 20.55 million. I still remember some math and 20.55 million is a heckuva lot more than 3.1 million. Add to that, CNN, MSNBC, Headline News and the print media and the Fox audience is dwarfed by the rest of the media.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Fox audience is dwarfed by the rest of the media.

Hello again, Steve:

Given your advantage in right wing radio, I'd say we're even. Plus, right wingers YELL louder than anybody else, and that's got to count for something..

excon

LOL, I imagine like me, most people have the radio on all day at work, we aren't really listening. People make a point to sit and watch the news. But I will acknowledge the conservative advantage in radio, no one wants to listen to shrill liberals all day. Not even liberals.

The point is, the liberal media is louder than conservative media. MRC monitors hundreds of outlets for bias. Media Matters monitors one. You know why, you even made a point to admit it.

Gotcha there, eh buddy?

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Nobody wants to listen to lefty's on the radio...

I listen to Tom Hartman every day on my drive home. It's better than listening to Comedy channel.

Fort Hood Plot: AWOL U.S. Serviceman Arrested

I have no comment.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I have no comment.

Hello again, Steve:

I do...

In SPITE of the ZILLIONS of $$'s the NSA is spending to spy on us, and in SPITE of all the wars we're fighting to get the terrorists, and in SPITE of all the torture we could ever do, we WOULDN'T have caught this terrorist...

Good old fashioned police work did.

excon

The reason you wouldn't have caught this terrorist Ex is you wouldn't have been looking for him , You took ten years to find Osama bin Laden so catching this fellow would have been beyond your resources. He was right out there in plain sight. I expect that some of those fabled budget cuts will be in the area of inefficient and ineffective security services

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Good old fashioned police work did.

The guy approached the gun dealer who sold the weapon to Major Hasan . The dealer became suspicious and called the cops.

It was luck that he was caught .It had nothing to do with "good old fashion police work".

Don't tell me a gun control system actually works?

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Originally Posted by paraclete

don't tell me a gun control system actually works?

Depends on how you define "works"...

Because it brought in one guy out of how many others?

It wasn't about gun control. The jihadist went into a gun shop and asked the dealer about smokeless gunpowder and if he could buy a large QTY.
This dealer ,having already dealt with one jihadist at Fort Hood became suspicious.

These so called police tactics are not what has prevented domestic attacks. The guy in Times Square.. the underwear and shoebombers were all brought down by a vigilant and in some cases heroic populace .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

These so called police tactics are not what has prevented domestic attacks. .

Hello again, tom:

If police tactics INCLUDE listening to snitches, then police work absolutely DID prevent these attacks.. And, cops DO listen to snitches..

Although, I supported the war in Afghanistan in the beginning, it WAS a knee jerk reaction.. And, yes, it's easy to Monday morning quarterback it... But, we should have approached it as a POLICE ACTION, as opposed to a military one.. Clearly, the military one isn't working out, whereas the POLICE ACTION that killed Bin Laden, did.

I believe you'd call the action that killed Bin Laden a military one, but I'd remind you that police agencies don't look a great deal different than military units these days.. They HAVE helicopters. They HAVE night vision. They HAVE big guns. And, they wouldn't have had any more permission to enter Pakistan than the military did.

But, you DO understand that I'm not talking about the POLICE particularly. I'm talking about the kind of engagement that's entered into.. In fact the military is perfectly capable of police action..

The bottom line is, I'm not seeing much success from YEARS of war and TRILLIONS of $$'s spent.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

The bottom line is, I'm not seeing much success from YEARS of war and TRILLIONS of $$'s spent.

excon

Come now Ex haven't you read the exploits of the military lately, dozens killed in a raid on the Huggari network, huge halls of narcotics, the Taliban leadership decimated. How can you say you are not seeing success in the face of such propaganda? Is it cost effective, no, but wars never are. What we need are some of those police actions where you ride in on your white charger otherwise known as a helicopter, shoot up the enemy, capture whoever are left over and ride out. It's the stuff of legends. How come you didn't capture Bin Laden that way? Oh you did and it was a great success, particularly in foreign relations