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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

There is no bigger hypocrite in America today than our president.

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Hello again, Steve:

Are you offended at the WAY he said it, or that he said it at all?

Of course, the GOP IS threatening to undermine the economy IF their demands aren't met. What do you want to call it? Bipartisanship?

You'd only feel that way, Steve, if you BOUGHT the right wing claptrap circulating around, that going past August 2nd deadline, isn't really going to DO anything at all to our economy... It's all a left wing conspiracy... And, if you're WRONG about the devastation your actions will cause, well you can always TRY to blame Obama...

But, I take exception to your gambling with my children's future..

excon

I'm calling him the biggest hypocrite in America. I applauded him for one of his better moments after the Tucson shootings and he's done nothing but disappoint since. Instead of promoting the "new era of civility" he called for he continues to use the very same violent rhetoric that was used to blame the right for the tragedy.

I've already addressed that gambling with your children's future once, but I fail to see how spending us into oblivion is a good future for your children.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

but I fail to see how spending us into oblivion is a good future for your children.

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Hello again, Steve:

So, politicians aren't going to be allowed to use the word gun, huh? Ok..

But, you need to keep up, Steve. The Democrats are proposing a DOLLAR tax on the wealthiest of the wealthy for every FIVE DOLLARS in cuts, and they're proposing TRILLIONS in cuts. Of course, the Republicans are saying NO!

So, while your "spending" rant makes good copy in right wing circles, it bears no resemblance to what is actually going on.

But, I just wonder how come I never heard the 'SPENDING US INTO OBLIVION" rant when George W. Bush started two wars, and wasn't shy AT ALL about putting THAT expense on your children...

Like a lot of the things you rail on about - IOIYAR.. (it's OK if you're a Republican)

excon

Hello again, righty's:

Ok, you didn't see Titanic.. Have you ever played Sim City?? Probably not... Republicans don't have any fun..

Anyway, in Sim City, you're the mayor of your little town. If you raise taxes too much you see your tax base leaving town... If you lower them too much, you see infrastructure decay and crime rise. The game works, because it's RIGHT ON.

The idea, of course, is, that there IS a tax rate that works. Go above it, and bad things happen.. Go below it, and bad things happen.

Do you subscribe to a tax rate that works (whatever number it is), or do you believe the lower, the better?

excon

You'll be hard pressed to find anyone happy with spending under Bush. I've never justified that I can recall, I don't recall tom ever justifying it, the IOIYAR argument is a straw man. I can justify spending the trillions the Democrats want to spend at all, much less doing so because "Bush did it."

As for the proposal you refer to, we'll see. Allegedly the twit-in-chief has put cuts in SS and Medicare on the table but I think it's all for show, just like this "sky is falling" act of yours.

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Originally Posted by excon

Ok, you didn't see Titanic.. Have you ever played Sim City??? Probably not... Republicans don't have any fun..

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I beg your pardon, I played 40 minutes of firefight arcade in Halo Reach this morning. THAT was fun, Sim City, not so much.

In response to the twit-in-chief's attack on corporate jet owners, the jet industry is a little pi$$ed at him for ruining their business.

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While pundits and politicians haggle over whether alterations in the depreciation schedule of corporate jets will actually have an impact on the deficit, those in the general aviation trenches are furious.

Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPO) President Craig Fuller told The Daily Caller that Obama’s comments have cast a pall over the industry, causing many who were considering buying a plane to back away from making a purchase.

“The industry has suffered terribly in the last two and a half years and it has just started to recover. Most of the signs were starting to look good,” said Fuller. “We are so angry as an industry and we have all come together to try to bring a more fair and balanced description to the debate.”

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So what if a few good paying jobs are lost so he can score points with the base and say he increased "revenues" by a few measly billion on the backs of rich people? And did I tell you this corporate jet thing tax break was his idea in the first place?

One other thing, this is a rerun of the luxury tax on yachts that had disastrous results for a lot of people.

What happens in Sims city when you waste tax money on unnecessary spending ? Do the businesses move to the next town ?
I'm not the mayor of the little town I live in... our mayor wouldn't be mayor for long if he wasted our money. There are people here who attend every town board meeting with sharpened pencils handy ready to "assist " the town in ways they can more efficiently spend our money.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

What happens in Sims city when you waste tax money on unnecessary spending ?

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Or what happens when you give the mayor money to put jobless townspeople to work, but he instead stashes it in his office safe?

What happens when you add taxpayers? Sen. Marco Rubio:

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Let’s stop talking about new taxes and start talking about new taxpayers, which means jobs. This debt is the No. 1 issue on everyone’s minds and rightfully so. It is a major issue, but everywhere else, in the real world, the No. 1 issue on people’s minds is jobs. And I tell you, every other problem facing America — a mortgage crisis, a home foreclosure crisis, this debt problem — all of these issues get easier to deal with if people are gainfully employed across America. And the impact that unemployment is having across this country is devastating. …

Our job here [in Congress] is to do everything we can to make it easier for them to find a job, not harder. And I think that’s what we have to do when it comes to ‘a balanced approach’ and when we talk about revenue. We don’t need new taxes, we need new taxpayers, people who are gainfully employed, making money, paying into the tax system and then we need a government that has the discipline to take that additional revenue and use it to pay down the debt and never grow it again. …

So you look at all these taxes that are being proposed and here’s what I say: I say we should analyze every single one of them through the lens of job creation, issue No. 1 in America. I want to know which one of these taxes they’re proposing will create jobs. I want to know how many jobs will be created by the planes tax. I want to know how many jobs will be created by the oil company tax that I’ve heard so much about. How many jobs are created by going after the millionaires and billionaires that the president talks about? I want to know! How many jobs do they create? …

I traveled the state of Florida for two years campaigning. I have never met a job creator who told me that they were waiting for the next tax increase before they started growing their business. I’ve never met a single job creator who has ever said to me I can’t wait ’til government raises taxes again so I can go out and create a job. I’m curious to know if they say that in New Hampshire because they don’t say that in Florida. So my view on all that is, I want to know how many of these tax increases the president proposes will create because if they’re not creating jobs and they’re not creating new taxpayers, they’re not solving the problem.

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Hello again, Steve:

Rubio is mixing metaphors.. If the DEBT is the problem, then raising revenue is a solution.. If JOBS are the problem, then RE-building our infrastructure is a solution.

If Rubio wants to know what higher taxes have to do with job creation, I'd ask, what does NOT RAISING TAXES have to do with the DEBT?

You got to ASK the right question if you want the right answer.. But, if all you want to do is demagogue, then you don't need the right question.

excon

I don't think they will meet that Aug deadline . Since the Senate didn't pass the budget that was passed by the House in April ,(actually they haven't passed one in 2 years ),then any negotiated deal will not go through the reconciliation process. In other words a fillibuster is in play.
That means that the President will have to prioritize spending after debt service.

In Sims City the family that spends too much cuts non-essential spending to pay down their credit card debt.

Here's what they should do... a 10 year plan bringing spending down to the 2008 levels we had when Obama took over... and then to 2006 levels when the Pelosi 'swamp draining' House took over... then gradually to 2000 levels of the 'golden age' of Clintoon spending levels . Wasn't that the days of surplus ?

The Dems are trying to sucker the Republicans like they did to Reagan and GHW Bush . Immediate tax increases for the promise of future spending cuts. The problem is that spending cuts didn't happen and won't happen this time .

Let the deadline pass. A new one will be drawn in the sand. I don't think there is a real deadline until the Oct end of fiscal year. The truth is that the President doesn't want the Republicans going on summer recess and listening to town hall folks setting them straight before a deal is struck .

Rubio for VP !

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Originally Posted by excon

If Rubio wants to know what higher taxes have to do with job creation, I'd ask, what does NOT RAISING TAXES have to do with the DEBT?

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I believe he answered that:

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I traveled the state of Florida for two years campaigning. I have never met a job creator who told me that they were waiting for the next tax increase before they started growing their business. I’ve never met a single job creator who has ever said to me I can’t wait ’til government raises taxes again so I can go out and create a job. I’m curious to know if they say that in New Hampshire because they don’t say that in Florida. So my view on all that is, I want to know how many of these tax increases the president proposes will create because if they’re not creating jobs and they’re not creating new taxpayers, they’re not solving the problem.

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It's sound reasoning, ex. You ought to be able to admit that raising taxes changes behavior. People will go all out to avoid paying more in taxes, we're not stupid.

Why do you think I love shopping on Amazon.com? Until something happens to close that internet sales tax loophole I'm going to exploit it. Until the feds enact a "fair tax" (which sounds like true "shared sacrifice" to me) I'm going to do what I can to avoid paying taxes. Don't you?

And one other thing, raising taxes costs jobs. Fewer jobs, fewer taxpayers.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

And one other thing, raising taxes costs jobs. Fewer jobs, fewer taxpayers.

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That study shows that it projects initial reduction of employemnt levels but it then recovers to normal levels.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I'm going to do what I can to avoid paying taxes. Don't you?

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Hello again, Steve:

I don't know. Would you turn down a raise if it means you'll pay more taxes?? No, you wouldn't. The message?? Paying more taxes ISN'T the end all, and be all economic decision any of us make.

The POINT is, as I said earlier, I do NOT run my business based on the tax code. I run it based upon whether I can make a profit... I HIRE when I can't meet the demand of my customers. That's the ONLY time I hire. NO businessman makes his decisions based on the tax code. NONE of 'em.

Let me ask you this.. If you're a businessman, and the tax rate just went UP. HELL, it might go up AGAIN! Yet, you've got customers clamoring for your product. Are you going to close down because you have to pay more taxes?? I don't think you would.

excon

Show me the studies that say tax increases don't cost job losses.

Hello again, Steve:

Sure, I will... After you tell me why the Bush tax cuts DIDN'T create the jobs they were supposed to.

excon

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I don't know. Would you turn down a raise if it means you'll pay more taxes??

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Quite a few of the people who work in my plant don't like overtime because of the additional taxes they pay.

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NO businessman makes his decisions based on the tax code. NONE of 'em.

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I've heard some very successful business people say otherwise .Here in the North East many a business has up and left to states with better tax and business friendly environments .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Quite a few of the people who work in my plant don't like overtime because of the additional taxes they pay.

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Hello again, tom:

Maybe it's in the water. Or the tin foil hats you Noreasters wear. Cause nobody in the REAL world turns down work because of the extra taxes they'll have to pay. NOBODY!

They may turn it down because they're FAT and HAPPY, or maybe LAZY - but NOT because they'll have to pay more taxes...

excon

PS> (edited) On the legal boards, sometimes we get criminals who want to DO their time in jail because they're going to violate probation anyway...

It makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to a fellow like me, because even ONE day free, is better than NO days free... But, of course, I could NEVER convince them of that...

In your overtime refusal case, it makes NO sense to a fellow like me, because having MORE cash in my pocket is better than having LESS cash in my pocket, even if the government took a few sheckles. But, I'll NEVER convince you or your fellow workers of that... I have NO IDEA why.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Quite a few of the people who work in my plant don't like overtime because of the additional taxes they pay.

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They are clearly idiots.

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After you tell me why the Bush tax cuts DIDN'T create the jobs they were supposed to.

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After Bush got the comprehensive tax reductions in May 2003 ,job growth began in September and continued for 51 months for a total of 8.1 million new jobs.

'the answer is easy... spend less'

What's the Deal with Debt? - CNBC

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Originally Posted by tomder55

'the answer is easy....spend less

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Hello again, tom:

No, that's the simple answer. Let me ask you this... Let's say your car broke down. Now you COULD buy a new car, but NOT if you're listening to simple answers.. For ME, investing in a new car WOULD be the solution to a broken down car.. You?? Walking, I guess.

excon

I guess you come from the Paul Krugman school that says if you waste a trilllion in stimulus and it doesn't work ,then triple down.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I guess you come from the Paul Krugman school that says if you waste a trilllion in stimulus and it doesn't work ,then triple down.

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And wasn't he among those chastising Bush for his reckless spending?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I guess you come from the Paul Krugman school that says if you waste a trilllion in stimulus and it doesn't work ,then triple down.

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Hello again, tom:

Of course, the stimulus DID work. Where do you think the shortlived recovery we DID have come from? It didn't just magically happen... The stimulus actually MIGHT have FULLY worked if Obama didn't cave to right wing pressure to make HALF the stimulus be in the form of tax cuts, which don't stimulate crap. But he did, and we've got what we've got.

When business isn't spending, and consumers aren't spending, government needs to spend. Now is NOT the time to worry about the debt. NOW is the time to worry about jobs. We have the NEED for infrastructure repair. We have the PEOPLE ready to do it. We have the equipment standing idly by... It's time to put the country back to work...

Yes, we'll pay the debt down WHEN we've RECOVERED. That's what you do in your OWN life isn't it? You BORROW what you can't pay for NOW, and pay it back when you can. That's called a mortgage... I'll bet you've used one.

excon

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You BORROW what you can't pay for NOW, and pay it back when you can. That's called a mortgage... I'll bet you've used one.

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Still do ;and I prioritize my spending to live within my means too. I bet you do to . We do that because we can't QE out of our problems and we don't borrow in excess of our ability to pay it.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Still do ;and I prioritize my spending to live within my means too. I bet you do to . We do that because we can't QE out of our problems and we don't borrow in excess of our ability to pay it.

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But you haven't lost your job, right?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

But you haven't lost your job, right?

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What if I did ? I wouldn't go on a spending spree if that's what you mean .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

What if I did ? I wouldn't go on a spending spree if that's what you mean .

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How would you pay your mortgage with no money coming in?

I fail to see your point. This is about the government that is spending at a rate of spending equal to a quarter of the total GDP . It is not in a position where it is not getting revenue (income ) ;it is rolling in revenue . It is just spending too much ;and that is what needs fixing.
When I was unemployed I used reserve capital;unemployment compensation . When I was underwater with my mortgage I negotiated a short sale and did not default . At no time when times were tough did I think I could go on a spending binge to solve my problem.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

When I was unemployed I used unemployment compensation

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Government support, a type of social welfare benefit?

My point is too many people are out of work right now, prices on goods are high, short sales can't be easily negotiated, and the debt ceiling must be raised.

Wouldn't corporate profits suffer if it weren't, i.e. there'd be a domino effect?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

At no time when times were tough did I think I could go on a spending binge to solve my problem.

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Hello again, tom:

From a businessman's perspective, that's exactly the time I DID invest (spend). In fact, investing is the ONLY way out of our problem... We'll pay the debt when we're rolling... JOBS are what's needed now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah... I know you're going to tell me that business's won't hire if we have too much debt... I'm telling you that business's will hire when the demand for their product is there. When people work, like repairing bridges and stuff, money flows and DEMAND for products manifest...

Investing is GOOD. Really. It is.

excon

Leave it to the repubs, everybody and his mama is hollering for a job, even the tea party, and other repubs, and what do they do, protect the rich and screw the poor. And everybody who ain't rich deserves to be poor. I don't get how anybody that needs a job can vote republican.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

protect the rich

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I'm waiting for the wealthy businessmen to create all those jobs. Their tax breaks haven't been touched nor have their corporate jets.

Leave it to the "progressives " to triple down on failed solutions . The President bragged his policies would "save" or create 3-4 million jobs. Way to go! A trillion dollars squandered has not created one net permanent job ;eradicated poverty ,or built any meaningful infrastructure. Instead it has contributed to the making an already shaky economy and the nations fiscal health worse .We were told that if we didn't pump a trillion stimulus into the system that we would face 8% unemployment . Well we have and this week we learned unemployment is at 9.2% .
[ "All in all we're going to be creating somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 jobs next month, I predict" (Joe Biden) ] He was a little off. Only 18,000 jobs were created and the May job report was revised down by 44,000 jobs to a net gain of 25,000 .

Lets do it again! Brilliant ! We were told by Madame Mimi that passing Obamacare would create 400,000 jobs immediately.. bwahaahaahaa! They shot their bullets . All the have left is class warfare rhetoric.

By the way... calling corporations evil and bandits ;calling profits bad or ill gotten ,and piling on to an already burdensome regulatory regime does not create an environment of certainty in the market place. Boeing wants to create jobs and the Obots won't let them . The energy companies want to create jobs and they are prevented from doing so.

Now before you mock the concept of certainty being a factor let me quote the President's presser this week.
"The sooner we get this done, the sooner that the markets know that the debt limit ceiling will have been raised and that we have a serious plan to deal with our debt and deficit, the sooner that we give our businesses the certainty that will need in order to make additional investments to grow and hire".
He undertands the concept of certainty when it's convenient to his agenda while not understanding the effect of his polices on business confidence.

This is all you need to know about the President and his outright hatred of the private sector.
From his commencement address to Arizona State 2009 :
"You're taught to chase after all the usual brass rings,”..“Yah try to be on this 'who's who' list or that 'top 100 list'…ya chase after the big money, ya figure out how big your corner office is…ya worry about whether or not ya have a fancy enough title, or a fancy enough car…Now you can take that road, and it may work, for some. But at this critical juncture in our nation's history, at this difficult time, let me suggest that such an approach won't get you where you want to go. Did you study business? You can go start a company…or, why not go help a struggling not-for-profit find better and more effective ways to help folks in need?”

Ex is right in that we need investment in the economy... private investment. But investors have noted the Obots hostility to the private sector and have voted with their investment choices. Americans invested $351 billion dollars overseas last year .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

leave it to the "progressives "

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I'm progressive, aren't you?

–adjective
1.
Favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, especially in political matters: a progressive mayor.
2.
Making progress toward better conditions; employing or advocating more enlightened or liberal ideas, new or experimental methods, etc.: a progressive community.
3.
Characterized by such progress, or by continuous improvement.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

This is all you need to know about the President and his outright hatred of the private sector.
From his commencement address to Arizona State 2009 :
"You're taught to chase after all the usual brass rings,”..“Yah try to be on this 'who's who' list or that 'top 100 list'…ya chase after the big money, ya figure out how big your corner office is…ya worry about whether or not ya have a fancy enough title, or a fancy enough car…Now you can take that road, and it may work, for some. But at this critical juncture in our nation's history, at this difficult time, let me suggest that such an approach won't get you where you want to go. Did you study business? You can go start a company…or, why not go help a struggling not-for-profit find better and more effective ways to help folks in need?”

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Where does that show hatred of the private sector? To me it shows trying not to put material possessions as the ultimate goal - that's noble isn't it?

BTW here's the ACTUAL quote:

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Now, in the face of these challenges, it may be tempting to fall back on the formulas for success that have been pedaled so frequently in recent years. It goes something like this: You're taught to chase after all the usual brass rings; you try to be on this "who's who" list or that top 100 list; you chase after the big money and you figure out how big your corner office is; you worry about whether you have a fancy enough title or a fancy enough car. That's the message that's sent every day, or has been in our culture for far too long -- that through material possessions, through a ruthless competition pursued only on your own behalf -- that's how you will measure success.

Now, you can take that road -- and it may work for some. But at this critical juncture in our nation's history, at this difficult time, let me suggest that such an approach won't get you where you want to go; it displays a poverty of ambition -- that in fact, the elevation of appearance over substance, of celebrity over character, of short-term gain over lasting achievement is precisely what your generation needs to help end. (Applause.)

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Hello again,

Like this forum, there seems to be NO movement toward a deal. But, WE'RE not responsible for governing. They are, and they're STILL playing chicken with OUR future.

Obama offered to cut TWICE as much as was offered before, in exchange for SOME revenue enhancements... The Republicans, of course, said NO. They're probably going to say NO this afternoon, too. (Actually, Boehner would probably say YES, but Cantor say's no, and he's really the one in charge.)

Certainly, the president is going to USE this fact as a hammer to BEAT the Republicans... Only, the Republicans think THEY'RE the ones who are going to be using the hammer...

I don't know WHO is going to win this fight. I only know WHO'S going to lose. It's you and me, and our children.

excon

Let me see. Repubs have been redistributing the wealth from the bottom up since the Bush tax cuts started and they have never been raised since. Matter of fact They have gotten a few bucks from the Government when they screwed up the whole freaking world economy.

Now yet again they threaten the whole freaking economy to get what's leftover from they're last screw up. Did I miss anything? Oh yeah, they still blame Obama and the Dem's for not cleaning their mess up they caused in the 2 years they had control. Those are the facts fellas, plain and simple, because every time you blame the president for what he ain't doing, its only to dodge responsibility for what you have done, which is sink the world economy, screwed billions of us ordinary people, and haven't circulated not one freakin' dollar since George gave you the keys to the vault.

Its not a spending problem you crazy people, its robbery. Don't call a politician, call the dang sheriff, get the posse, together. Lets get them varmits, and get OUR money back!!

But the repubs have the horses, guns, and grub, and they ain't selling none of it. As in every crisis, they ain't helping, and stand in the way of those that want to help.