Speaking of the budget, Senate Democrats (who see no reason to even propose a budget) didn't take Obama's budget seriously. It went down 0-97.
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Speaking of the budget, Senate Democrats (who see no reason to even propose a budget) didn't take Obama's budget seriously. It went down 0-97.
Interesting vote also on the Ryan budget plan. As expected there were 4 RINO's who voted with the Dems... and Rand Paul who thinks the cuts should be greater .
I can see already that Paul will be the Senate version of his old man... a gadfly.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Or, they could just be people who want to keep their jobs.
What is SOOOO funny here, is you don't realize just how much you sound like the Democrats did about the health care bill. They kept saying that once people really UNDERSTAND the bill, they'll like it... Now, you're taking up that mantra...
excon
Brown ,Snowe, Collins ,Murkowski Their votes are predicatable . They may as well change party now and end the charade.Quote:
Or, they could just be people who want to keep their jobs.
That's repeated a ,ot by the right but it's not the case:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Corporate Taxes | 1955 vs. 2010 [PIC] - Digg
Where in your link does it show US corporate tax rates? It doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Who's talking taxes against GDP ?
Here is one that has not been revised since Japan lowered their corporate tax rates
Corporate Tax Rates By Country - Worldwide Tax Rates | Contrarian Musings
The Tax Foundation - U.S. Corporate Taxes Now 50 Percent Higher than OECD Average
How can the tax rate stay the same but contribute less and less to the total revenue?
Clearly there are other sources of revenue besides corporate rates as your chart indicates.
Such as?
Hello again,
Taxes, schmaxes...
It's a red herring. The political strategy of the right wing is to starve the beast... They HATE social programs, but realize that attacking them directly isn't very popular... So, they figured out that if there's no MONEY, the HATED social programs will die on the vine...
Or so, that's the idea. They thought that when they showed the country that the money is gone, the country would cave. They didn't. Turns out, we LIKE taking care of the old people - ESPECIALLY when most of us PLAN on getting old - and about HALF of us are Republicans.
Back to the schmaxes.. I mean taxes... Having been a successful tax planner, I can tell you that the published corporate tax rate is a sham.. NOBODY pays that rate. In fact, it's SOOO rife with loopholes (deductions) that they pay as much, or as LITTLE as they want to, just like General Electric did.
In MY view, the reason corporations are moving off shore is NOT because of taxes... It's because OTHER countries workers happen to be better educated than our own. In fact, it's the RIGHT WING who is attacking public education, and has been for 30 years... The result is we have a STUPID workforce. This is what happens when you let Republicans run the show - CHAOS!
excon
Uh, income tax, licensing fees, regulatory fees, penalties and fines, sales tax...Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
And the political strategery of the left is to ever expand government "entitlements"Quote:
The political strategy of the right wing is to starve the beast...
To create a growing constituency dependent on the entitlements and the party .
That house of cards is crashing down and their answer is to pretend it isn't happening .
I think its pretty clear that a lot of changes must be made. Compromises on both parts.
Perhaps they should adopt the plan proposed by Democrat Sen. John Breaux (D-LA) in the late 1990s that came within one vote of a super-majority vote of getting out of the House Ways and Means Committee . The Breaux plan that he proposed from his 'National Bipartisan Commission on the Future of Medicare' would have transformed Medicare into a premium support system, where instead of Medicare directly covering beneficiaries or underwriting their participation in HMOs, beneficiaries would be given a fixed amount of money to purchase private health insurance. Seniors would be able to pick from a list of insurance plans, while getting federal subsidies to help pay for them. Back then there were at least some Democrat greats that get it including Bob Kerrey of Nebraska , Pat Moynihan of New York , and Chuck Robb of Virginia. Ironically the vote turned on the issue of adding prescription drugs for Medicare beneficiaries . Ironic because in the last decade the only meaningful reform of Medicare has been related to prescription drugs (Part D)and senior's choice (Medicare Advantage plans ).Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
As a side note ;Breaux's Medicare Commission staff director at the time was now Republican Governor La. Bobby Jindal.
Hello tal:Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Tom agrees. We should compromise between ONE plan that kills Medicare, or ANOTHER plan that kills Medicare... He does NOT get that compromise means raising taxes...
excon
Taxes, schmaxes
Medicare is not funded by taxes.. remember ? It's like Social Security... put in a lock box... right ? There should be no funding issues if there wasn't theft from the plan... right ?
The solution to a failing ponzi scheme is to add more cash to it I guess.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Couple things... You brought up another issue... I agree wholeheartedly that STEALING from plan will cause it to go bankrupt... That's different than the plan being a ponzi scheme. If it's a ponzi scheme, then so is your local fire department. The difference is, your community FUNDS your fire department.
So,as long as we mis-characterize the very programs we're talking about here, there won't be any solutions. The ONLY solution, and the one that's worked for the last 50 years or so, is to IMPOSE it upon an unwilling right wing, because you'll NEVER get, and NEVER have gotten the right wing to agree. To them, it IS a ponzi scheme.
So, SCREW 'em. Get POWER and MAKE it so. Isn't that the way YOU guys operate? Isn't that what you'll do, IF you get power? You betcha that's what you'll do. I'm watching your governors do it right now.
Medicare works and the people want it - by a BIG majority!
excon
Truth is that there never was a trust fund and everyone knew it. Yeah everyone loves ripping off the youth of America to pay for the elderly . The fact is that there were 6 workers for every retiree when Medicare pyramid was concocted . Now it's below 4 workers even before the bulk of the Baby Boomers retire. There is no generation that large replacing them .
The math is indesputable.. $80 trillion in Medicare liabilities for a US economy is only $15 trillion. Madoff was a piker compared to that.
Hello again, tom:
As we've discussed on another thread, there IS a solution.. It's really a matter of whether we want to make the hard choices... I think it will come down to deciding whether we want to be an empire or a country that takes care of its own.
If we agree at all, we agree that we can't be BOTH.
excon
Ripping off the youth to pay for elders?? Its not a rip off, the youth are supposed to take care of their elders!! That's my mama you are talking about, and she worked damn hard for me to get where I am. Of course, when she needs me most I am only to glad for her to rip me off!!
When you reduce things down to negative rhetoric, to justify just plain mean cruelty and hatred, of course you scare the hell out of the weakest and most vulnerable like Rush Limbaugh, or one of those socalled consevative idiots, who makes a living scaring people. A very good living.
Yeah raise their taxes, back to the 1950's and see where this BS deficet goes. Get the money the greedy bankers STOLE and refuse to circulate, and invest, and see where the BS deficet goes. And while you are at it, tell Eric Cantor to off set emergency money when a disaster hits his neighborhood!
Now get some single payer Medicare for everyone, and tell the insurance companies to go to hell. Why do conservatives hate old people, poor people, homeless people, unemployed people, and every other people except the gardner, and rich people?
Sorry Tom, but ex is right, get rid of the uncompromising, hateful, scared conservatives so the rest of the country can compromise on things that help everybody, and not just a few.
Indeed it is ripping off the youth . The workers today are paying for their own health care and that of their children and for the MANY retirees who are living in Florida or Arizona luxury retirement communities ;playing golf and shuffle board ,and trading their car in annually .They could easily provide for their own or heavily contribute to their own plans.In fact many of them are double dipping from pension income and government assistance.
That is why the Ryan plan is weighted heavily in favor of the seniors who really need it .
Tell me before you get all sanctimonious ;Which generation has the greatest amt of disposable money ;the most disposable income with the greatest buying power ? The elders or the young worker ? Here's an inconvenient truth for you . The government spends around $6 on seniors for every dollar it spends on children ,however, the poverty rate among children is much higher.
If you get your wish of a single payer system of course then that will likely shift as the death panel throws momma over the cliff.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Well, there you go... That's the problem. See, you think MOST seniors live like that. If they did, I'd be against Medicare too. But, they don't. It ain't even close. The truth is that MOST seniors scrape by on their Social Security checks, and that's all...
Actually, tom... I'm sure the numbers are available to you, if you care to look.. You're a smart guy.. You don't really believe that MOST seniors are living the good life.. If you do, I'm going to reassess.
excon
Now I understand your views better Tom, you have been misinformed and scared by Fake News and his employees for much to long. Your view would be different if most of the seniors you knew invested in pill cutters, and only gassed up their 10 year old Chevy once a month to go to the grocery store, until they got that next social security check. And they take 100 bucks for social security out of it.
Stop listening to rich fat guys tell you the sky is falling to keep their ratings up. Talk to some ordinary people like me, who are happy to see another day, and look at reruns of Law & Order, and play fantasy sports.
I know, I don't create jobs or anything else for that matter but gas, but I don't steal trillions and tell people how I need more either. Damn those rich old people and their luxury lifestyle.
Just curious how much you contributed to Palins new mansion in Arizona? Me, I'm saving for a pill cutter.
I've worked hard to make a living. Money was taken from my paycheck to support the "older generation".Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Now it's my turn. S.S. is a return on the payments I've made over the years into the Social Security system through payroll taxes. S.S. is MY money that I'm getting back, not government assistance.
How dare you think of taking that poor unemployed young guys money, and spending it on golf fees in Arizona, or Florida. HAH, and you have the nerve to think its YOUR money.
You want fun, wait until the 54 year old who has been paying into the system for 40 years, find out the young guy stop giving and he is on his own, when he gets 62.
Yeah, I wondered about that. Maybe he will get his contribution back in a lump sum. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
I wouldn't want to be around when he takes his "lumps"
That isn't what I wrote... this is what I wrote :Quote:
See, you think MOST seniors live like that.
.Quote:
and for the MANY retirees who are living in Florida or Arizona luxury retirement communities ;playing golf and shuffle board ,and trading their car in annually
Try addressing what I actually wrote .
That is why the Ryan plan is weighted heavily in favor of the seniors who really need it
WG ,the links you provide shows SS as 36-40% of seniors income and 60-64% from other sources . Thanks for confirming my contention that SS is for many seniors not the sole source of income. All you have to do is go to the marketing sites and look up senior's disposable income to see that there is a major effort underway to tap into that market.
Quote:
I've worked hard to make a living. Money was taken from my paycheck to support the "older generation".
Now it's my turn. S.S. is a return on the payments I've made over the years into the Social Security system through payroll taxes. S.S. is MY money that I'm getting back, not government assistance.
I never called it "government assistance" . I've heard the same thing from most seniors I've discussed this with .No matter their means it's "their money " ,they are "entitled "... Madoff's victims said the same thing when it was their turn.Quote:
You want fun, wait until the 54 year old who has been paying into the system for 40 years, find out the young guy stop giving and he is on his own, when he gets 62.
The Ryan plan recognizes that reality and doesn't change a thing. All it does is shift the method of payments to the younger workers when they retire. They will still be contributing into the system . No one said that the younger worker will stop paying into Medicare.
I contend that your Medicare check is more threatened by the Obamacare "savings " he touts. Obamacare slashes $ half trillion in Medicare provider payments over the next 10 years, and imposes a hard cap on future Medicare spending.This results in a 30 percent cut in doctors' pay next year.
Doctors are fleeing the system in droves because they won't get fair compensation for their work.
But you see the trap ? Once they started the ponzi scheme "it's my money" was going to be the argument used to keep the system going no matter how flawed it was at the outset. There is NO WAY it is a sustainable system as is ;or in the model proposed by the Dems to tax their way out of it. Once you say that anyone should be taxed to pay for your entitlement then it does indeed become "public assistance ".
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Huh??
You STILL appear to be saying that since seniors have OTHER sources of income, besides SS, they are BETTER off than what I indicated...
In fact, the opposite is true... I don't know if you noticed on the chart, but 30% of the "other sources" is EARNINGS..
So, I DID mis-speak, after all.. I said that for MOST seniors, Social Security was their only source of income... I was wrong. For 30% of 'em, it AIN'T enough! They have to keep on working... When you add that 30% to the 40% who are too sick or old to work, you've got 70% of seniors who eek out an existence on Social Security, or have to supplement it at McDonalds.
excon
The poverty rate of people older than 65 is less than the general population and by a significant difference compared to children under 18 .
And yes ,much of that difference is from Social Security payments.
That just reinforces my point that the burden is on the next generation at a time they can least afford it. That is how the scheme works . It was ONLY sustainable when there was a larger percentage of people contributing into the plan than was getting payouts (6-1). That equation has been in decline and will shrink to an unsustainable level real soon. You know that and I know that.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
We don't disagree about the problem. We disagree about the solution.
excon
Well I'll say now how the pols of both parties will solve it.
They will say Seniors are living too long so benefits should start later . They will say that it should be means tested which will destroy the fundamental contract of both SS and Medicare.
I say the system needs to fundamentally change. That lump sum payout sounded good to me ,but most wouldn't go along with it . For some reason people think government is a good money manager. I don't understand where they get that notion. The track record proves the opposite. So be it . If I was a voter in the 1960s I would never had agreed that the plan was a good idea. But we are stuck for now with some form of government control over seniors money and health .
Ryan propose a choice . It seems to be working with Part D . Why not for the rest ?
I heard TPAW this week improve on Ryan's plan by saying he would allow seniors who prefer to remain in the existing plan.
Like you said... there is room for compromise.
I don't think government should run as a business, it should be effective in protecting its people and making a fair place to pursue happiness.
We can compromise on the how, as long as everybody is in it and gets the same thing out of it. Means testing sounds good, but until we actually do live longer changing the ages on SS, and Medicare is not a great idea, nor is allowing greedy for profit insurance companies the access of millions of seniors and their loot.
Obamacare has already addressed Medicare advantage, and part D, both lousy expensive ideas, and my mom has said she will kick the arse of any youngster that will cost her money she doesn't have because she made her choice so back the freak off. She is out now looking for this Ryan guy, and promised to protect me to while she protects herself.
That was what the vote in NY district 26 was about. Say what you will about what happens later, but you better get a better idea, because no one is buying this one. That's the bottom line.
The other big source is work. Seniors I know continue to work into their 70s and even 80s to make ends meet. SS just isn't enough, especially in today's economy.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Yeah, you did --Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
And many seniors work because they chose to . No one is yet addressing the disposable income fact. It is no mistake that marketers are targeting that customer base and I've already given the poverty rate for seniors compared to the general population.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I'd like to see the government program that runs that way.Quote:
We can compromise on the how, as long as everybody is in it and gets the same thing out of it.
The actuarial tables don't lie. We are certainly already living far longer than SS was designed for ,and the same is true for Medicare.Quote:
means testing sounds good, but until we actually do live longer changing the ages on SS, and Medicare is not a great idea
Yeah that's part of the massive cuts in Medicare benefits that the Obots put through. Yet I hear no seniors complaining that Medicare is being "changed as we know it ". How could that be ? Maybe the greedy company that has seniors suckered ,AARP ,is in the game for the big bucks .Quote:
Obamacare has already addressed Medicare advantage, and part D, both lousy expensive ideas,
More third rail nonsense. Yes I know the Ryan plan will be removed from the budget because the budget was voted down in the Senate and Schuck Schumer demagogued the issue. Mark my words , unless real reform happens in the next decade then there will be an IMF or a China imposing fiscal responsibility on the country . We are closer to where Greece and Spain are now than we'd like to believe.Quote:
Say what you will about what happens later, but you better get a better idea, because no one is buying this one. That's the bottom line.
None I know choose to. I'd like to see stats on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
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