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So far that's 2 examples... today. There are MANY more going back years, not to mention again the movie fantasizing about his assassination. This is not new and it's not just a lone wacko or two.
Now, I know most liberals love their country, but the America haters come from the left, too and it's no small contingent.
I can't forget this either, Cafepress at one time offered this t-shirt for sale:
http://www.wnd.com/images2/killbushshirt2.jpg
Hello again, Steve:
If you want to play the hate card, I got one... In my view, those people who support TORTURE (or enhanced interrogation if calling it that makes you happy) HATE America!
I mean really, really HATE the country I love...
Put that in your hate pipe and smoke it.
excon
That must include the administration, too.
There is the last 3 years of Obama blaming Bush for everything... including the stuff Obama himself did AFTER Bush was no longer in office.
That's right - everyone in America hates America - except for you of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
I'm all for more torture of terrorists. In fact I don't think you can torture foreign terrorists too much.
Just not Americans who aren't terrorists.
There is nothing in the Constitution that says"Thou shall not torture or do things to terrorists they find unpleasant".
Because Terrorists aren't normal people.
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Did I STUTTER?? Maybe I didn't make myself clear, although I usually don't have that problem... Those who torture in my name, HATE my country!
If you want to use the PC term, enhanced interrogation, I'll go along, but (wink wink) we ALL KNOW what we're talking about here. So, let me say it again, those who support water boarding by ANY name, HATE the country that I love. Do you want me to say it again?
If you're amongst that group, tell me WHY you hate my country..
excon
Nope, I gotcha.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Like Obama realized when he took office, I know the realities of this world necessitate certain things that can get kind of ugly. I wish it weren't so but it is.Quote:
If you're amongst that group, tell me WHY you hate my country..
"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." - Winston Churchill
[Rudyard Kipling's] "grasp of function, of who protects whom, is very sound. He sees clearly that men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them." -George Orwell
"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it." - Aaron Sorkin (A Few Good Men)
Hello again, Steve:
Here's your problem. You conflate vigorously protecting the country with the need to torture. I DON'T. I vigorously defended the country, and I did it LEGALLY.
Those who resorted to ILLEGAL acts using the defense of the country as their excuse, DEFAMED my beloved Constitution. They're despicable. They HATE the Constitution and the country it serves.
You quote the colonel from "A Few Good Men", but you left off the ending.. The colonel was sent to PRISON for violating the law, no matter how pretty his rhetoric was. The same thing should happen to the torturers.
excon
I knew what happened to the colonel, it was still a good quote. He was sent to prison for ordering the hazing of one of his own men that resulted in his death if I recall. As it should be.
You and I have different definitions of torture. I don't consider sleep deprivation torture. Waterboarding, maybe. All I know is if it were me that had the opportunity to get information from a known scumbag that would save say, my wife or kids, I'd do just about anything it took to get that information. Wouldn't you?
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
If the question were asked with equivalent values, the answer would be no, as I assume yours would be...
Here's the problem with the ticking time bomb scenario.. It makes great politics, but lousy logic. It only works if you KNOW the guy you are about to torture KNOWS what you THINK he knows. But, of course, in the real world, you CAN'T know what he knows. It's simply not possible. You can THINK it, but you can't KNOW it. Even if Muhammod and 20 of his friends TOLD you he knows, you can only THINK he knows...
So, the answer to your question is yes, if the guy in front of me KNOWS stuff that would save my wife and kids, I'd do what I needed to do, too... But, since I really CAN'T know what he knows, I wouldn't pull his fingernails out..
excon
Wait, we were pulling fingernails out? I thought we were just pouring water on 'em, keeping them awake and blasting the Black-Eyed Peas at 'em.
The fact is that even when they tried the withhold information and did the so called 'tell them what they want to hear' there were obviously contradictions in their responses that the intel folks pieced together. Did they spill the beans ? Maybe and maybe not .But the guy in the next cell knew what was happening and his responses were tailored appropriately .
Look ;even Leon Paneta admitted that the interrogation methods worked. Would we have gotten the key intel from other methods ? Possibly.
The fact is that our intel on AQ was seriously wanting in 2002 and a crash course had to be taken . No one believed time was on our side.
Immediately after 9-11 there were anthrax attacks and no one knew what AQ capabilites were.
It's easy to Monday morning quarterback a decade later. But at the time the ticking time bomb seemed very real .
Hello tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Nobody here says it doesn't work. But, if safety is our only issue, I wonder why we don't use it on our domestic criminals.. It'll make us safer, won't it? Why don't we search everybody's houses? That'll make us safer too, won't it? Why don't we build concentration camps and put people there who pose a threat, and knock 'em off if they cause trouble? Why don't we do these things if safety if the only consideration?
I'll tell you why. Because our humanity IS a consideration... And, so's the Constitution.
excon
You still refuse to make the distinction between Americans who have Constitutional protections and enemy combatants in war. Under no provisions I'm aware of are they entitled to the same safeguards as US citizens.
You can call it a concentration camp all you want. But Gitmo by anyone's standard is one of the most humane prison on the planet. My guess is that it beats most US prisons in that regard.
No pictures I have seen of gitmo supports your claim that it is the one of the most humane on the planet. To me it looks like a place you would pen dogs and even then it wouldn't be considered humane. Should it be better than other US prisons then a revue of how you treat your own is long overdueQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgu...ed=0CCcQ9QEwAA
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Keeping someone forever, never giving them a trial or a hope of getting out, isn't humane no matter how good the food is.
excon
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
The Constitutional distinction is a declaration of war. You can't have the benefits of a war without declaring it..
Therefore, there is no such distinction in the law as "enemy combatants. Without a declaration of war, there are only criminals. That would endow them with Constitutional rights. These criminals committed their crime in NY City. Seems to me, they should be tried in NY City.
Bush had a chance to follow the Constitution. He could have asked for a declaration of war. He would have gotten it. He chose not to. There's repercussions for doing that.
excon
Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Um... Obamas been in office for almost 2 and a half years and started ANOTHER war in Libya...
There STILL isn't a declaration of war... and That's not Bushes fault. In fact... Dems controlled everything until this past election. Time to stop blaming Bush and start blaming the Democrats. THEY had plenty of time to declare a war IF it was really needed.
W isn't running a shadow government from Crawford after all.
Hello again, smoothy:Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
You've been wandering around the legal boards for a while, so you SHOULD have a sense of the law... Bush did some things that have LEGAL ramifications that outlast his presidency. The things he did, DIDN'T go away when he left for Crawford. Some of those things we're dealing with NOW.
Now, you can IGNORE those things by choosing to only look back 2.5 years to find out what the problem is... But, you'd be fooling yourself.
excon
SO... the typical liberal argument... YOU have to follow a different set of rules and laws than WE do?
Obama is in charge... IF any of them were illegal there was unfettered chances to end them all or set things right when the dems controlled everything.
And incidentally... BUSH as much as the left can't stand the fact of... isn't Subject to any laws THEY aren't.
The Dems AREN'T exempt so they are every bit as guilty of everything you are blaming BUSH for. Because they have been, and they are currently doing exactly the same thing... and MORE. Bush never went into Libya and Obama is still in Afghanistan AND Iraq, AND he violated Pakistan's sovereignty... (not that I disagree at all there) but the Dems would have been screaming bloody murder if BUSH did it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
There we fundamentally disagree. I think in both the war against jihadistan and Iraq ,the Constitutional requirements were met with the resolutions passed supporting the wars.
Authorization for Use of Military Force- Sept. 18, 2001
Iraqi War Resolution - Text of Iraq Resolution and Roll Call Vote Authorizing War In Iraq
To Smoothy's point;the President never addressed Congress ,nor asked for a resolution.
I wonder if Jimmy C is mourning the loss of a mass murdered he can no longer visit ?
Hello again, Steve:
Let me reiterate.. Those who want to bring back torture, and there's a LOT of right wingers who want to do so, HATE America.
Let me say it once more with feeling, those who torture in my name HATE AMERICA. Why do right wingers HATE America?? Why?
excon
"It is permitted in time of grave danger to walk with the devil until you have crossed the bridge" (Old Bulgarian proverb quoted by FDR at Yalta )
We LOVE America more than we love the terrorists that would be tortured. THAT is the difference between the right and the left.
The left believes the rights of terrorists are more important than the rights of Americans who would be harmed by them.
Hello again, smoothy:Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Yeah... I understand.. In other words, you're willing to DESTROY America in order to SAVE it. I heard that argument in Vietnam.
excon
The left is striving to do that (destroy America ) its part and parcel to Obamas agenda.. . by sucking up to the terrorists and screwing Americans.
We didn't give the Germans and the Japanese those rights... We didn't give the British or the French those rights either... we didn't give the Mexicans (in the past anyway) or the Indians those rights... and we've done pretty damn good so far.
Giving terrorists MORE rights than the average American has isn't going to do a single American any good.
Hello again, smoothy:
If you don't understand what the USA is about, then you can't possibly preserve it. The reason Obama should have prosecuted Bush, Cheney, Yoo and ALL the torturers, is so that it NEVER raises its ugly head again... But, since he didn't do that, people like you will think torture is cool and certainly NOT against the law.
If what works is more important than who we are, why don't you opt for a full on police state? That works. Why don't we just shoot protesters?? That works. Why don't we just throw people in jail and NOT give them a trial? That works..
I guess I shouldn't be giving you ideas.. You say you love America more than the terrorists... But, if you respond to the terrorists by changing the fabric of America, then your hated terrorists WON. I know you don't understand that... But, when you HELP the terrorists WIN, you HATE America... Why do you hate my country so?
excon
Obama and Holder won't even prosecute cases they've already won, why would he attempt to prosecute Bush and Co. knowing he'll lose?
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
I don't speak for these people. If I did, I would have prosecuted the torturers and I wouldn't have lost. Would have been a slam dunk. Torture IS illegal, after all. People who PROMOTE torture HATE America.
Why do the righty's HATE America?
excon
Who's promoting torture?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Apparently we don't know we hate America, promote torture and are bigots. Thank God we have people like you and Pitts to set us straight.Quote:
Why do the righty's HATE America?
Why do lefties care so much about the non-existent rights foreign terrorists as supposed to have in their imaginations.
After all WE don't have any presumption of innocence on any highway or back road in the nation.
Yet the left wants to extend rights to foreign terrorists when none exist.
Wow, the US seems like a nice place to live.
I can't imagine living anywhere else.
a) all you do is whine all day about how stupid the people are in your countryQuote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
b) your government spies on you and you can't do anything about it Battle Brews Over FBI's Warrantless GPS Tracking | Threat Level | Wired.com
Hello again, smoothy:Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
It's not that I care about the terrorists.. It's that I that I LOVE my country. I've spoken about the "fabric" of our country, and how becoming torturers changes it... I suspect you haven't a clue about what that is. Maybe you missed civics that day.
excon
No that's all YOU do. I take the time to go kick their a$$ in fantasy baseball, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
When you want to discuss REAL WORLD stuff, post me. But, I'm not going to get into that denial routine of yours.
In the REAL WORLD, when the Japanese waterboarded our soldiers it was torture... When WE do it, it's not... Thinking that OUR waterboarding is good, when their waterboarding was bad, is psychotic.
So, you can go on pretending that what we did wasn't torture, and I'll keep on telling you how loony your are.
excon
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