A couple thoughts. The problem with the nukes is not that they couldn't survive a 9.0... they did.

What is taking them out is the tsunami disabled the redundant pumping systems . That is a correctable problem.
Anyway ,I think the move to use nukes as a viable alternative to carbon based is pretty much a dead idea. Too bad.. We needed a bridge to these future technologies. What will be conveniently ignored is that reactors will continue to be used all over the developed world for other purposes. Reactors all over the world provide over 10,000 hospitals with the necessary radioisotopes for diagnostic and medical treatment . Would we shut them down too ?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

The problem with the nukes is not that they couldn't survive a 9.0 ....they did.

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Hello again, tom:

That's one way to put it. Yes, PART of the plant survived - and PART didn't. The PART that didn't, though, kind of outweighs the PART that did. That's because from the public's point of view, whether a deadly leak came from THIS breaking or THAT breaking, makes no difference.

You say what went wrong is correctable. That's true - if we know what's going to happen. But, we don't. We can build them to withstand X, and HOPE a tad more than X doesn't happen. History has taught us one thing, for sure. When we build them to withstand X, we find out later that X was just a tad too light.

Speaking of Indian Point, if you were watching FOX over the weekend, you'd have found out that the plant was built to withstand a 3.0 earthquake. But, they discovered a brand new fault, and now believe that an earthquake of 7.0 is entirely possible. Seems Indian Point is a tad light, but this was FOX talking, so I don't know how reliable it is... You were watching, weren't you?

Should it be shut down?

excon

I was part of a lively debate locally a few years ago. The utility company wanted to put a modern gas powered generation plant in the area. The NIMBY's won that fight. Upstate just north of the Catskill Mountains the local utility wanted to build windmills . The NIMBY's won that fight too. They didn't want the windmills in their sightline . Now in the same area there is a raging debate because they are sitting on huge gas reserves stuck under shale formations. It would be an economic boom for a fairly depressed region. My guess is that the environmentalists will win that fight too.

When I lived on Long Island there was a long debate while LILCO built the Shoreham nuke plant. It was an economic boom for the community ,because it added revenues that offset some of the lowest property tax rates on the Island.
They finished the plant ;contaminated it with nuclear material while they tested it. Then Mario Cuomo refused to allow it license to operate.

Now the same folks who objected to the nukes also mobilized to prevent windmills off shore.
This is not unusual . Robert Kennedy Jr. that noted environmentalist turned NIMBY when they proposed windmills off Cape Cod.

Around the world everyone demands more energy .Yet there appears to be a problem with every generating means .

If you believe that carbon fuels cannot generate enough energy for the future;or believe they harm the environment so much that we cannot continue to use them... and believe as I do ,that renewables are a niche at best... then there has to be a bridge to the next generation of energy sources.

I think we have no choice but to build nukes and make them as safe as we can.

Indian Point should be inspected ;perhaps upgraded ,and then relicensed . It provides a third of the energy used in New York City and it's surrounding counties. I see nothing on the table to replace it.

Perhaps the left thinks they can run their house on a bicycle turned into a generator AKA like was used in Soylent Green in the apartment Charlton Heston shared with the old guy.

Bet they get over THAT really quick. Might work in California where it really doesn't get all that cold in winter... they would just have to sweat the summers out. And that Ice Cream is going to cost them a LOT of physical labor to keep cold.

Or let them try and grow their OWN food without ANY carbon based fuel.

And incidentally... most fertilizers are a byproduct of the petroleum industry... besides the tractors needed to till and harvest the fields.

Kill oil or make it expensive... Food is going to become scarce and expensive.


Unfortunately... nuclear power is the only non-carbon based fuel that can produce the electricity needed for life. And Solar cells or Wind power AREN'T options for everyone. Many places don't have reliable wind... and much of the country has cloud cover far too often for solar to be viable.

And like was mentioned... it wasn't the earthquake.. but the tsunami that took out the diesel backup generators for the cooling system that was the root of the problem.

I don't know enough about nuclear reactors to know if there is a design that had as a failsafe... A way to fully retract the rods that would allow the reactor to effectively shut down where short of the cooling system actually going dry would not require pumps to keep it cool even in a minimal shutdown status. That is without having other more dangerous risks inherent in the design.

Sorry to Hi-Jack the thread but this video of this religious girl is unbelievable I don't even have words for how disturbed I am after watching this sc*mbag.
YouTube - GOD IS SO GOOD!!!

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Originally Posted by spitvenom

Sorry to Hi-Jack the thread but this video of this religious girl is unbelievable I don't even have words for how disturbed I am after watching this sc*mbag.
YouTube - GOD IS SO GOOD!!!

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Religious fanatics are a scary bunch, regardless of the religion.

That's one girl who has a special place reserved for her... in Hades.

Someone should tell her there are quite a few Christians in Japan.

Well now it's getting kind of silly: Japan volcano: Earthquake, tsunami and potential nuclear meltdown not enough | Mail Online

I wasn't kidding when I referred to Godzilla .He represents every challenge that the Japanese have had to face in their history. Japan is cycles of building, flourishing, destruction and eventual rebirth.

This one spared Tokyo. But Tokyo endured complete destruction twice in the last century . 1923 it was flattened by an earth quake ,and in 1945 it was firebombed .
It is now the home of 30 million people... all living in the shadow of Mount Fuji.

Hello again,

We must keep in mind that according to the right wing, tsunamis and volcanoes are only a theory.

excon

Facts based on scientific empirical evidence is real.That would include the existence of volcanos and the reality that tectonic shifts cause tsunamis. These realities are not dependent on fraudulent data analysis.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again,

We must keep in mind that according to the right wing, tsunamis and volcanoes are only a theory.

excon

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No ex that's the alternative theory of earthly life, that The Earth is alive and fighting back. Let's face it ex, humans are a virus, sort of like a skin disease

Hello again, tom:

You mentioned earlier, that the plane that hit the twin towers flew right over Indian Point. How many people would have died if they flew the plane into that plant?

excon

None . The outer walls of the plant containment dome is reinforced concrete, about four feet thick at its thinnest point .

The planes that took down the Twin Towers had to penetrate glass. If the same planes had crashed into the Empire State Building it never would've happened .

But lets assume it breached the thick concrete wall of the containment dome. Would it breach the containment vessel ? No .

The reactor at Indian Point is underground under another 4 feet of concrete and steel reinforced floor .

Unlike the Japanese plants(which stored spent fuel on the roof) ,the spent fuel rods are stored under another structure with a protective flooring 40 feet deep and surrounded by many feet of solid concrete.

A commando force of terrorists would find stiff resistance and a building very difficult to penetrate. The security force is trained with automatic weapons ; the doors are steel reinforced and have an automatic lockdown .It has a razor wire perimeter and strategically placed machine gun turrets.
It takes seconds to shut the active plant completely down.

Trust me .There are many choicer targets for terrorists to hit in the greater NY area . They've attempted to hit them a number of times since 9-11. Along the same route is Yankee stadium . Routinely during baseball season there are 50,000 + people in this open stadium. A plane crashing inside the stadium would cause more casualties than anything they could do with Indian Point.

Have a read of Sum Of All Fears by Tom Clancy.

There they use a low level dirty nuke at the World Series final!

Yes I've read most of the Clancy Jack Ryan books.

The terrorists in that book got their weapon from an Israeli jet that had crashed.
His latest book ('Dead or Alive') has an OBL like cleric attempting to get material for a dirty bomb from Yucca Mountain.

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Originally Posted by Curlyben

Have a read of Sum Of All Fears by Tom Clancy.

There they use a low level dirty nuke at the World Series final !!

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Didn't read the book... but it did make a good movie. And movies rarely live up to the book.

The movie didn't live up to the book due to PC. The movie conconcted a group of neo-Nazi 'white supremists' as the terrorist group instead of the jihadists that Clancy used in the book.

Edit... it also used Ben Affleck instead of Harrison Ford.

As I expected... have read a LOT of books that later became movies over the years... NONE have ever really come close to living up to the book yet.

You'd love the book. Clancy takes pages to describe the process of the nuclear detonation while it occures . You just don't get that kind of detail in a movie.

Lets put the nuke issue in some context here: BBC News - Nuclear power: Energy solution or evil curse?

Hello ben:

I don't know if the article puts the issue in the PROPER context. It's clear, that he's a proponent of nuclear energy. He's awfully assertive about these particular reactors posing NO problem when he says, "A disaster on the scale of the Chernobyl nuclear accident in the former Soviet Union is highly unlikely, according to experts, because Japan's reactors are built to a much higher standard and have much more rigorous safety measures."

I just don't think that's credible in light of today's news. Plus, he says it has the "lowest carbon footprint". By THAT measure it may be true. After all, it IS mined, and shipped all the way from Kazakhstan. That leave a carbon footprint. But CARBON isn't the environmental problem the world is worried about when it comes to nuclear power. It's waste disposal... As a matter of fact, the fire in the #4 reactor was in the spent fuel rod pit, cause we have NO where to dispose of it. He doesn't mention that at all.

Look. I'm not against using nuclear power. But we need to have an HONEST debate about it.

excon

My biggest concern is that Iran and the NORKS have nukes. How much transparency about safety is there coming from them ?

Oh yeah . The IAEA monitors them (snicker) .

Other news on the alternate energy front...

Earlier I responded that seamingly committed Greenies were in fact NIMBYs .
The NY Slimes has a follow-up.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/we...=2&ref=science

You should hear the whiner Anthony Weiner complain.

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When I become mayor, you know what I'm going to spend my first year doing?” Mr. Weiner said to Mr. Bloomberg, as tablemates listened. “I'm going to have a bunch of ribbon-cuttings tearing out your [expletive] bike lanes.”

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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/06/ny...er=rss&emc=rss

So where does this leave us ? Carbon based energy ?NO! Nukes? NO ! Green energy ? NO! Fusion? It was 50 years away 50 years ago. Flux Capacitor ? Maybe in the 22nd century.
Everyone should plan on building grass and mud yurts .
Pacific Yurts-What is a Yurt?
Become a hunter gatherer .
Kill your food and skin them for your clothes .
Buckskin Clothing | Buckskin Clothes

And say goodby because there won't be the energy necessary to run your computer. If we kill off a few billion of us we'll restore balance with mother Gaia .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

My biggest concern is that Iran and the NORKS have nukes. How much transparency about safety is there coming from them ?

Oh yeah . The IAEA monitors them (snicker) .

other news on the alternate energy front....

earlier I responded that seamingly commited Greenies were in fact NIMBYs .
The NY Slimes has a follow-up.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/we...=2&ref=science

You should hear the whiner Anthony Weiner complain.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/06/ny...er=rss&emc=rss

So where does this leave us ? Carbon based energy ?NO! Nukes? NO ! Green energy ? NO! Fusion? It was 50 years away 50 years ago. Flux Capacitor ? Maybe in the 22nd century.
Everyone should plan on building grass and mud yurts .
Pacific Yurts-What is a Yurt?
Become a hunter gatherer .
Kill your food and skin them for your clothes .
Buckskin Clothing | Buckskin Clothes

And say goodby because there won't be the energy necessary to run your computer. If we kill off a few billion of us we'll restore balance with mother Gaia .

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Most of those NIMBY's don't know how to grow weeds, much less HUNT... many are vegitarians that think animals have the rights of people.

Then there are those that are going to be whining why they don't get food delivered to them because they are underprivledged and shouldn't have to fend for themselves.

Never mind many of them voted to prohibit everything that made modern life possible.

Project Dweller skins will make nice leather, no callouses to mar the hide.


And if you havest them early enough... the hides will be ample in size... if you get them before starvation shrinks their size.

My dad has been living in the mountains in Chile for a while now, growing food, living off minimal power, and a water well... waiting for the rest of his family to go and join him. As is evident by my username, I have been considering that option. Maybe instead of my original plan (moving to Japan) I should just go to Chile now?

You all seem a lot more up to speed with current events than I, so I am just using my youthful power of deduction here...

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Originally Posted by southamerica

My dad has been living in the mountains in Chile for a while now, growing food, living off of minimal power, and a water well...waiting for the rest of his family to go and join him. As is evident by my username, I have been considering that option. Maybe instead of my original plan (moving to Japan) I should just go to Chile now?

You all seem a lot more up to speed with current events than I, so I am just using my youthful power of deduction here...

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It really depends on what you want out of life and how self-sufficent you can really be. Most of the p[opulation that live in larger cities rely on others to provide end-product food, water, power, etc. they view their role as wage earners to pay for these services. As well many rely on technology for contact and entertainment.These people would not adapt well off the grid.

Chile is smack in the middle of the Ring of Fire. They had a major earthquake in January and February .
The biggest difference was the tsunami that hit Japan after the quake.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

It really depends on what you want out of life and how self-sufficent you can really be. Most of the p[opulation that live in larger cities rely on others to provide end-product food, water, power, etc., they view their role as wage earners to pay for these services. As well many rely on technology for contact and entertainment.These people would not adapt well off the grid.

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I was raised in a moderately "off-the-grid" environment. As of late, I've been living in urbania, as a partial rebellion to my upbringing. Though my individual skills of survival aren't exceptional, I would have many resources (e.g. my dad and the community in which he lives). I lived there for three months to help him prepare his land, build his house, and plant his garden. I know I would like, it there... but my plan was Japan first, and then Chile for a while... and then thinking about settling down. The first idea (Japan first) isn't looking so good, especially since the plan was to move there in November 2011.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Chile is smack in the middle of the Ring of Fire. They had a major earthquake in January and February .
The biggest difference was the tsunami that hit Japan after the quake.

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Yes, I know this. I was really scared for my friends and family when the quakes hit. Luckily, those particular quakes didn't effect my friends save a little shaking. Chile isn't nearly as populated as Japan, so the devastation wasn't as bad. I don't plan on avoiding natural disasters 100%... I'd be hard pressed to find a location ideal for that.

There would be issues of acceptance in Japan. It is a very homogeneous nation.

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Originally Posted by southamerica

I was raised in a moderately "off-the-grid" environment. As of late, I've been living in urbania, as a partial rebellion to my upbringing. Though my individual skills of survival aren't exceptional, I would have many resources (e.g., my dad and the community in which he lives). I lived there for three months to help him prepare his land, build his house, and plant his garden. I know I would like, it there...but my plan was Japan first, and then Chile for a while...and then thinking about settling down. The first idea (Japan first) isn't looking so good, especially since the plan was to move there in November 2011.

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I too have fantasized about living on my own wits and the land but know I could never do it, my upbringing wasn't like yours (not that mine was bad mind you). Maybe that's why I enjoy reading post-apocalyptic novels, people are forced to go back to fending for themselves, or find someone who can.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

There would be issues of acceptance in Japan. It is a very homogeneous nation.

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Yes, that's a major consideration for people to make if they want to go east. I have already started to modify my wardrobe and have been practicing etiquette for dealing with Japanese business people and children (as I would plan on teaching English to school children).

I see we are back to talking about fantasy again when the real thing unravels before our eyes. If I read the dispatches correctly we now have four separate reactors that are damaged and may or may not be contained with two others ar risk. No jihadist could have hoped for such a result. What makes this all the more bizzaire is that the Japanese Prime Minister specifically referred to the nuclear power stations in his fIrst speech. He must have been aware then that there were problems but they started with denial
http://www.news.com.au/world/japan-e...-1226022151756
The remain calm warnings are beginning to look like outright lies.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

I see we are back to talking about fantasy again when the real thing unravels before our eyes. If I read the dispatches correctly we now have four separate reactors that are damaged and may or may not be contained with two others ar risk. No jihadist could have hoped for such a result. What makes this all the more bizzaire is that the Japanese Prime Minister specifically referred to the nuclear power stations in his fIrst speech. He must have been aware then that there were problems but they started with denial
Radiation leaks from crippled Fukushima nuclear plant in northeast Japan | News.com.au
The remain calm warnings are beginning to look like outright lies.

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Thanks for putting us back on track. I apologize for the hijack; that was my fault.

Level 6? Yikes.

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"We monitored a higher than normal amount of radiation in the morning in Tokyo. But we don't consider it to be at a level where the human body is affected," said Sairi Koga, an official of the Tokyo Metropolitan Government.

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Hopefully it stays that way. Shutting down Tokyo would be... interesting.

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Originally Posted by southamerica

Level 6?? Yikes.
.

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Yes a significant emergency and made all the worse by the chaos in the surrounding region

Interesting how the press have started to round UP the magnitude of the quake.
There's a HUGE difference between an 8.9 and a 9.0!!

The scale is NOT linear in nature, but algorithmic.

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Originally Posted by Curlyben

Interesting how the press have started to round UP the magnitude of the quake.
There's a HUGE difference between an 8.9 and a 9.0 !!!

The scale is NOT linear in nature, but algorithmic.

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Journalism is not what it used to be. Why investigate when simple elementary mathematical strategies will do the trick (as far as public opinion is concerned)?

Thanks for this, Ben... I am one of the "general public" who doesn't know much about the Richter scale.

Clete stay calm . Go out ,play a round of golf ;party with the reporters ,fill out your college basketball picks ;show true leadership in a crisis. Take a trip to South America.

Oh wait... that's the President's agenda.

My brother has been living and teaching in Japan for 25 years. Quite an active few days of regular updates of what it has been like.

When the quake hit, he and my niece were at school. They literally wondered for a moment if the school was going to come down around them. It took them 10 hours to get home for a trip that normally takes 1.25 hours. The last of the kids on school buses were dropped off at 1:30 am. Freeways, subways, trains were all shut down. The supermarket shelves were bare.

They have just recently decided to leave Tokyo for Osaka for a time for the peace of mind with all that is going on. Long gas lines, fuel being rationed (one station only allowed 5 liters per car!), many roads still closed. Depending on the line, subways operating at about 50-70% now. Food and gas in short supply. Hard to imagine...