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Not your rhetoric Tom the US and Obama. If they (Egypt) decide to move into the "jihadist" camp the rhetoric will be vitrolic rather than recogition that they have made a decision for themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I ask you this could China have been reformed without a communist revolution, without knowing the depths of despair? Niether I suggest can the Islamic world be reformed without first tearing itself apart and no amout of yankee B?S will stop it
Problem is... nobody really gives a damn what they do to themselves... the problem is they like to share in the misery they create for themselves in the Muslim world by spreading it wherever they can. And THAT is where the real danger lies.
Agreed, but interfering in their revolution won't endear you to them or be welcomed. Whatever the outcome, we need to stop listening to the bleeding hearts and concentrate on helping those who want to leave. It's too bad that the revolutionaries are facing a well trained and armed military force, that should have been taken into account before an opportinistic take over of a remote city. The question in Libya isn't whether Gadhafi is a despot who has been there too long, that is self evident, but whether the people have the will and ability to govern themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Yes Islam has a world view that the rest of us don't like and would certainly fight to resist. However embracing their national aspirations doesn't do anything for us, opposing them does nothing either
Oh I agree... let them kill themselves... and if the winner threatens us afterwards... then we kill them when the time comes. There is nothing to WIN in Libya... there is no strategic advantage to us there at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
China reformed ? Bwaaahaaahaaa!!Quote:
ask you this could China have been reformed without a communist revolution, without knowing the depths of despair?
We just witnessed 2 US reporters beaten to the point of hospitalization for attempting to cover people strolling in the streets carrying jasmine flowers .
I guarantee you that the people of China will not be permitted to demonstrate the way the people are doing on the streets of the ummah. They are MORE free than the Chinese people.
What are you talking about.. reforms?? The cadres there are the same group of dynastic Hans that have ruled the country for centuries.
The people are still slaves to a feudal system.
Yes that might be but the wars, internal strife and blood letting have stopped. Don't kid yourself your own people aren't slaves to a feudal system, only difference is they can leave if they want to, but they have nowhere to go. That's the problem of running to escape your problems. Sooner or later there is nowhere left to run.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Tom might have told you this before. I knew a fellow who was up the Yangsee in 1948. He said anything the communists did to China was an improvement. So obviously he had the opportunity to observe the nationals and pre-communist China. Now we know that not all they did was an improvement, but when people are persecuted they take revenge. I have seen communist China. What I saw was a peaceful law abiding people going about their business without repression. No more cops on the street there than you see anywhere. No army in sight. That wasn't staged for my benefit. How you think a Muslim country with its squalor and repression is better is beyond me
The civil war is almost over. Q~Daffy has pushed east .The rebels ? The smart ones are crossing the border ,the rest will be mopped up and dealt with after Q~Daffy throws out the foreign press.
What is the US policy after the golfer publicly called for Q~Daffy's removal and didn't back it up ?
We did not stand by a dictator in Egypt and we did not stand by the rebels in Libya. Does anyone wonder why the Saudis would make a move on Bahrain without consulting Obama ?
That's because everyone except his few loyal whoreshippers see him for what he is. A Blowhard. And worse... a blowhard without a spine or moral backbone. Just a ideolog that's not smart enough to comprehend when he has made stupid mistakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
He and his flunkies should have simply remained quiet about Libya. We have no interests there... nor a pro-western population there. Except when they want something for free anyway. No people can appreciate freedom unless they have fought and died to earn it for themselves.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
We haven't been happy with the way things turn out over there for several century's. Why would you think this time would be different? If they didn't run the gas station, we wouldn't care.
Drill, baby, drill.
excon
Bigger question . Show me the example where an unconstrained dictator fell to popular uprising without external help ?
It doesn't happen. So either we put up or shut up. Our actions this year have been pusillanimous .It is worse than GHW Bush betrayal of the Shia in Iraq 1990 .
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
What you call betrayal, I call common sense... Now, if it were up to me, I'd have SAVED my troops for events just such as those that are now unfolding. However, George W. Bush decided to expend his troops on wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan - WITHOUT a draft and WITHOUT paying for them, I might add.
So, although I'd LIKE to go in and DO what our troops SHOULD be doing, our guys are just plain tuckered out. We're spread too thin. We can't save the Libyans WITHOUT risking ourselves... Yup, it's Bush's fault.
excon
I'll disagree with that... our soldiers didn't enlist to fight and die for other countries civil wars where we have zero interest.
Again I ask . Show me the example where an brutal absolute dictator was ousted from a country without external help ?
What was Mubarack's mistake ? What was the mistake of Palavi ?They weren't brutal enough .
Why isn't the Taliban or Saddam ruling their nations ? Because of external intervention.
GHWBush incited the Shia to revolt and did not back them . That was betrayal .Quote:
What you call betrayal, I call common sense...
Wikileak docs proved what we already know... that Q~Daffy personally ordered the terrorist attack on PanAm 103 .Quote:
I'll disagree with that... our soldiers didn't enlist to fight and die for other countries civil wars where we have zero interest.
I did not say we should intervene in Egypt or now in Bahrain . But I have said we should in Libya and Iran. The interest we have in both is that those are nations and regimes that have attacked us .
This is a matter of INTERNAL politics and not for the "World Police" to get involved in.
Yes, it may well be a pooh hole in a rubbishy state, but it is also a Sovereign Nation and that fact should be respected.
No action should be taken against either side without a clear resolution from the UN and security council.
Our President, who apparently thinks golf and NCAA brackets are the most urgent thing he has to tackle, at least had jokes ready for his Secretary of State over her frustration with his voting present on Libya.
This president is the joke, and I'm not laughing.Quote:
“I’ve dispatched Hillary to the Middle East to talk about how these countries can transition to new leaders — though, I’ve got to be honest, she’s gotten a little passionate about the subject,” Obama said to laughter from the audience.
“These past few weeks it’s been tough falling asleep with Hillary out there on Pennsylvania Avenue shouting, throwing rocks at the window.”
Quote:
This is a matter of INTERNAL politics and not for the "World Police" to get involved in.
Yes, it may well be a pooh hole in a rubbishy state, but it is also a Sovereign Nation and that fact should be respected.
No action should be taken against either side without a clear resolution from the UN and security council.
And in a decade the free world will bemoan the inaction that could've prevented the next Rwanda or Darfur.
Evita has had it. She told Blitzer she's outa there in 2012. She's gone from 'aint no way tired 'Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
To I'm tired in 2+years as the lead diplomat for Waldo.
Ruth Marcus - Obama's 'Where's Waldo?' presidency
The problem with that is there are how many countries in the world today? How many are hopping up to spend their money and their lives to do it? The Idiot-in-chief has spent so much money the last 4 years QUADRUPLING the national debt... we really can't afford to do it unless we really get something valuable for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Yeah something MIGHT happen... but anyone that's going to point fingers can be told "Well why didn't YOU do something about it then?" We aren't the only country with an Army in the world.
Iraq makes sense... Afghanistan makes sense... Libya? Not a chance. Nor would Yemen or Egypt, or any other Muslim majority nation for that matter.
Like a rich spoiled kid... they can't appreciate what they have if its handed to them. THe poor kid that had to work and earn everything understands the value of things... Freedom is just like that.
Like it or not we lead the free world... or used to.
Why not do a Panama like action?. decapitate the snake and move on. I understand Curley. The Brits couldn't wait to free al-Megrahi so BP could make a contract with Q~Daffy . But the US ? Our only relationship with the guy has been a hostile one .
Even if we got the oil fields... Obama and his hacks would demand they be capped and not allow us to get any of it.
Just like they do with our own massive oil reserves.
And it does come down to the devil you know may be better than the devil you don't.
He's been a royal A-hole... but since Regan bombed his house and killed his kid... he's been a far more quiet A-hole.
I'd rather send a cruise missile up Hugo Chavezes A-hole before we did it to the Libyan Lunatic.
The devil we know blew up US soldiers in Germany ;blew up a US commercial airliner , was the nuclear laboratory for Saddam until we attacked Iraq... then he temporarily became compliant because we had a President who's words meant something .
I don't care about their oil. Let Italy have all of it.
The devil we know will align himself with jihadistan . That's what we do know of him.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Like Iraq was supposed to be a quick in and out?? Dude. Wars don't happen that way. Who is the opposition leader we support? Do we KNOW any of 'em? What if we pick a guy like Ben Laden or Karzai?
In fact, we DID pick Ben Laden, didn't we, and we armed him well? How did that work out for us?
excon
Sure he might... but what about who would likely take over? For them it would almost be a sure thing. A buttcrack of a country... poverty, low education levels AND Muslim lunatics thinking they have a right to everything... Not a recipe for Democracy there.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
IRAN stands a fairly good chance of a real democracy if the Religious nut leaders and their terrorist president got knocked off next week. I don't see much hope for that in these other places however.
That's why I used the devil you know vs the devil you don't. Don't see a positive outcome either way. You could end up with a repeat of the Taliban in Afghanisan.
I stand by this statement . Q~Daffy has just set the template for all the dictators and autocrats in the ummah . They know the free world will not stand up to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Did we care who ran Panama after we grabbed Noriega ? Of course in the bad ole days when our CIA did their job right we would've had the next Colonel waiting in the wings.Quote:
Like Iraq was supposed to be a quick in and out?? Dude. Wars don't happen that way. Who is the opposition leader we support?
When NATO decided Slobodan Milosevic had to go did they care who replaced him ?
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
So, go in, grab him, and that'll be that? If I remember correctly, and I do, we DID fire on the Panamanian Army, and they folded like a cheap suit... Somehow, I don't think the Libyans are going to do that.
excon
This is what I know . The US is abdicating it's role as leader of the free world. I don't care if you want to go through the charade of getting NATO or UN blessings.. the US has to lead . Which nation is that alternative ? In this case France has tried . Even the Aussies are making firmer statements .
Libya: Towards Sudan's Darfur type conflict? - Afrik-news.com : Africa news, Maghreb news - The african daily newspaper
I tell you ,it's embarrassing that K.Rudd and Sarkozy are showing more spine than the US President.
But that is the new world order. Who will fill the super power vacume ? It won't be a free nation that's for sure .
If you think the world will be a better place or that the US can retreat to fortress America and be safe you are in for a rude awakening .
Pssst... you're not and no one wants you to be. You're living in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Go back to turning sand into oil .At least that's constructive.
And we sell it to you. LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Ironically ,if we are consigned to be dependent on foreign sources ,I'd rather it be Canada.
Breaking... the feckless UN just approved all necessary force. Too little too late.
I want to see the UN forces get their butts kicked. They are about as fearsome as the French Army.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I can hear it now... "Stop that or we will be forced to sponsor a resolution condeming you.!"
I expect that's preferrable to turning sea water and arctic tundra into oil.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
It would seem that daffy duck is about to push a few rag tag rebels into the sea. This has been likened to Ruwanda but there are no millions being jeopardised here. No atrocities on a genocidal scale, in fact the body count has been surprisingly moderate. What we have is a few hundred ill equipped rebels hoping that the US will come on side and pour millions in arms and aid into their cause as they did in Afghanistan. The US doesn't love freedom enough to liberate the oppressed masses of the Earth. The UN isn't interested in doing anything more that staging a side show, there has been no suggestion of peace keepers landing because the rebels have told the world to stay out of it, but they expect to be protected. There is no constitutional protection in Libya, no bill of rights, such as the right to take over with arms, the right of protest with guns in your hands. What we have here is what in other places would be called treason
This isn't about oil, certainly not US oil supplies, but about opportunism
You missed and important part here at the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Quote:
the UN backed "all necessary measures", short of an invasion, to protect civilians.
BBC News - Libya: UK forces prepare after UN no-fly zone voteQuote:
The UN resolution rules out a foreign occupation force in any part of Libya.
So anyway the UK and France with the assistance of some loacl rag heads are getting prepared for this.
Should interesting as our LAST capable aircraft carrier has been decommissioned along with it's harriers.
I guess they are going to fly out of Cyprus then..
That's one hell of a commute to work ;)
The US will provide logistics and targeting from our carrier task force. We will probably fly AWAC and assume central command .We may even pock mark their runways with cruise missiles.
In other words we will provide most of the muscle but the 'international community ' will get credit.
Notable to me is the nations that abstained ,rather than vetoed.
Again this is too little too late. I agree with Sec Def Gates that the battlefield has to be prepared before a no fly zone begins. This should've begun when Q~Daffy was shooting protesters from the sky,not at the tail end of his successful counter-revolution.
I see Canada is going to contribute some planes to the effort . What do they have crop dusters ?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
If that makes you feel better about yourself then yea, we have crop dusters.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Libya declares cease-fire and says it will stop military operations as the West mobilizes - The Washington PostQuote:
Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa says Libya is declaring an immediate cease-fire and stopping all military operations.
See told you the Canadian crop dusters would be useful, daffy is clearly scared by them ;)
Hello again,
Obama is soooo strong, all he has to do is play golf, and Q~Daffy quits...
excon
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