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-   -   Drug war - last post. If you don't get it NOW, you NEVER will. (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=470551)

  • May 14, 2010, 01:02 PM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell View Post
    I did not say I was a user at all. All I said that was a pretty broad brush, and for you to say you can spot a user in a crowd, well is just silly. I'm not for legalizing it, I'm for de criminalizing it.

    Spend 35 years around pot smokers who don't make great sercrets of it... and meet people that you later find out really are... I have. I didn't grow up in a cave. I can smell it if the wind blows right and someone is a block away smoking it. I can smell it if the car in front of me has someone smoking pot in it (same with cigarettes or cigars)... and every few weeks that does happen with the pot.. daily with cigaretts.. every few days with cigars.


    I can spot them literally across the room at what I guess is 90% or better accuracy. Based on experience at parties with large numbers of people I don't know... and where usually the weed comes out an hour or two into the party. See who partakes... and who doesn't. Its really predictible most of the time.

    I don't smoke, don't live with a smoker, or work in a smoking environment... so my nose isn't dulled to the odor of any kind of smoke.
  • May 14, 2010, 01:07 PM
    slapshot_oi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    How many Men are sitting in jhail for sleeping with their girlfriends who happened to be 16 or younger?

    I don't know. What point are you trying to make here?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    . . . Pot, Heroin, Crack, Crank, black market OxyCodone, doesn't matter which drug....they all make criminals rich.

    Correct. That's why they should be legalized.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy
    . . . legalizing it isn't going to help anything. Except making it easier to make it worse.

    Wrong.

    First rule: if you treat someone, anyone, like a criminal, they will become a criminal. It's called labeling theory.

    Drug-related crime is more prevalent than alcohol or tobacco-related crime because drugs are a scarce resource. It's not as common as alcohol or tobacco and you're not supposed to have them in the first place, hence, the associated value for drugs is very high and owners will do what they have to buy and protect them, some will go as far as stealing and murder.

    Ya, legalizing will make drugs more accessible but that doesn't mean there will be more users, as there are people who choose not to drink or smoke. And, even if there are more users, they're less likely to turn out to be bad apples because they won't have to worry how, when and where their next fix is coming from and won't have to guess on the quality of product. It's the stress from all of this that makes them go nuts, not the heroin, that just makes them sleepy. It's true, the bad apple users exist only because it's so difficult to get a fix.

    This is basic micro-economics.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy
    What makes Pot heads special.....How about Pedophiles....Crackheads, Meth heads.....Rapists....wife beaters....Human trafficers...Prostitution....shouldn't their special vice be made legal too?

    You have no idea what a vice is. Gambling is a vice, smoking is a vice, drinking is a vice, sex can be a vice, spending too much time on AMHD is a vice.. . A vice is something someone does for himself for fun, but sometimes he goes overboard with it. With the exception of prostitution and drug usage, what you listed are sicknesses that affect other people. A rapist doesn't rape for kicks, he rapes out of anger and hatred.

    Your arguments would be much more solid if you knew what you were talking about.
  • May 14, 2010, 01:14 PM
    cdad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    And Incidently.....exactly WHERE is caffine regulated as a drug. Not in the USA.....Not in Europe....where do they control sale of caffine containing products to minors? As of today.....a 3 year old could walk into any store and buy any soft drink they sell. Even "Jolt" brand soda. Or Red Bull.

    Id like to address this question. One of the places that this so called non drug is regulated in in our schools. Yep, They seem to think that it might affect the children if taken in liquid form. I believe they used to call it soda machines back in my day. That's in many many places all across the U.S.
    Now for those energy drinks your talking about they are coming under fire in many communities. Also caffine is recognised as a performance enhancing drug by the Olympic commission. So yes it is regulated in that sense world wide.

    If pot was made legal then 90% of the illegal trade and what goes with it disappears. And if taxed it could pay for healthcare.
  • May 14, 2010, 01:14 PM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by slapshot_oi View Post
    I dunno. What point are you trying to make here?

    Correct. That's why they should be legalized.


    Wrong.

    First rule: if you treat someone, anyone, like a criminal, they will become a criminal. It's called labeling theory.

    Drug-related crime is more prevalent than alcohol or tobacco-related crime because drugs are a scarce resource. It's not as common as alcohol or tobacco and you're not supposed to have them in the first place, hence, the associated value for drugs is very high and owners will do what they have to buy and protect them, some will go as far as stealing and murder.

    Ya, legalizing will make drugs more accessible but that doesn't mean there will be more users, as there are people who choose not to drink or smoke. And, even if there are more users, they're less likely to turn out to be bad apples because they won't have to worry how, when and where their next fix is coming from and won't have to guess on the quality of product. It's the stress from all of this that makes them go nuts, not the heroin, that just makes them sleepy. It's true, the bad apple users exist only because it's so difficult to get a fix.

    This is basic micro-economics.

    You have no idea what a vice is. Gambling is a vice, smoking is a vice, drinking is a vice, sex can be a vice, spending too much time on AMHD is a vice. . . a vice is something someone does for himself for fun, but sometimes he goes overboard with it. What you listed are sicknesses that affect other people. A rapist doesn't rape for kicks, he rapes out of anger and hatred.

    Your arguments would be much more solid if you knew what you were talking about.

    Typical Drug users theory... legalize it and the crime rate goes down...


    Well legalize murder... and the murder rate goes down... not the rate of people being killed by other people... that will go up.

    Give junkies acess to free or cheap drugs and they use more... NOT less. Prove otherwise. Currently they use what they can afford.


    I've known for more drug users in the last 49 years than you have... Unless you work in a rehab center.

    You make the assertion YOU are an expert on the topic and I don't know squat... well, I say you are full of crap... prove you aren't!

    You want Cheap Heroin... move to Afghanistan... have all you want. Commit the crimes over there, not here.
  • May 14, 2010, 01:18 PM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    There ARE victims with any illegal drug...and they are illegal for good reason....

    Hello again, smoothy:

    Just SAYING I'm wrong, smoothy, doesn't make it so. It truly doesn't.

    excon
  • May 14, 2010, 02:13 PM
    slapshot_oi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    Typical Drug users theory...legalize it and the crime rate goes down....

    Lol.. . Oh come on man, read a history book! Al Capone, Bugs Moran and every crime syndicate made a lot of money bootlegging liquor during Prohibition. Once they repealed the law, there was no business in bootlegging anymore. It's not a theory.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    Well legalize murder...and the murder rate goes down....not the rate of people being killed by other people...that will go up.

    All this does is show us how little faith and trust you have in people. Do you honestly believe every citizen in this country makes a judgment call based on law?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    Give junkies acess to free or cheap drugs and they use more....NOT less. Prove otherwise. Currently they use what they can afford.

    Okay, when I wrote that I was speaking about all drugs and not specifically heroin, but you took what I said out of context.

    William Burroughs said "Junk is quantitative and accurately measurable. The more junk you use the less you have and the more you have the more you use", and he was a addict for 15 years so I believe his words. What you refuse to see is junkies don't enjoy being hooked, they don't keep doing it because it's fun they do it because the opiate receptors in their brain require it. Burroughs writes how badly he wanted to kick it even six months into his addiction but he just couldn't. He wrote an essay called the "Algebra of Need" in which the premise is how someone would do anything do get something in a time of absolute need. It's this need that turns a man wrong, and when you need something that's hard to find, you would do anything just to get it. So, my point, again, is make drugs readily available so it won't be seen as a scarce commodity and people won't have to fight over them and junkies will have a peace of mind that the pharmacy will always have some.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    I've known for more drug users in the last 49 years than you have....Unless you work in a rehab center.

    So, you had a birthday since we last argued? Well, happy 49th! And no, I don't work in a rehab center and I never have.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    You make the assertion YOU are an expert on the topic and I don't know squat...well, I say you are full of crap....prove you aren't!

    I never made that assertion, ever, and who cares? What does this have to do with the argument?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    You want Cheap Heroin....move to Afghanistan....have all you want. Commit the crimes over there, not here.

    Well, smoothy, if it's a crime over there it would still be a scarce commodity now wouldn't it?
  • May 14, 2010, 04:10 PM
    Fr_Chuck

    Illegal drugs, we are not shown in the video how much drugs were in the house, or where in the house and what evidence of his crimes they had. Enough to get a warrant.

    And if you were going though a door of a drug user to arrest them, and a loud dog was coming at you, what would you do ? Again after he is biting you is too late, you have to decide what to do before the dog gets to you. Shotting a possible dangerous dog is very acceptable.

    Since many drug users have dangerous dogs,

    So the only person at fault here was a drug user or seller who keep it at home around his kids.

    Wonder if he let the kids take a hit and pass it around with them. Perhaps give the doggy a "shotgun from the roach"
  • May 14, 2010, 05:15 PM
    thisisit

    This is such a horrifying video I could not watch it twice. ANY DOG WHO BARKS AT MEN BARGING IN WITH GUNS BLAZING IS JUST DOING WHAT A GOOD DOG SHOULD. The poor dog. If a civilian treated a dog like that they'd be arrested.
  • May 14, 2010, 07:56 PM
    KBC
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello drug warriors:

    I've heard you wingers say they're not busting pot smokers any more - but you lie. Here's a video of what's being done to people in YOUR NAME, in the war on pot.

    WARNING - It’s horrifying. Nonetheless, I’d urge you to watch it, and to send it to the drug warriors in your life. This is the blunt end result of all the war imagery and militaristic rhetoric politicians have been spewing for the last 30 years - cops dressed like soldiers, barreling through the front door in the middle of the night, slaughtering the family pet, filling the house with bullets in the presence of children, then having the audacity to charge the parents with endangering their own kid. There are 100-150 of these raids every day in America, the vast, vast majority like this one, to serve a warrant for a consensual crime.

    They found a small amount of marijuana, enough for a misdemeanor charge. The parents were then charged with child endangerment.

    Lemme see if I understand this... Smoking pot = child endangerment. Storming a home with guns blazing, killing the family pet as a child looks on = necessary police procedures to ensure everyone’s safety.

    Just so we’re clear.

    excon

    I don't consider myself a winger of any type,I haven't heard that they weren't arresting pot users less, or more, or whatever...

    I AM considered an expert on addictions though.

    Even without the status,I have been in,on or around drugs and alcohol abuse,treatments,12 step calls,watching the withdraws of those hooked,sat in meetings with them,and their spouses,and their children,and so on,and so on.

    I have watched the dealer with the camera on his front door(and back door),with loaded weapons at each point of the home(with kids and dogs,etc),I have witnessed things not mentionable on this site.

    Needless to say,pot is illegal.

    The actions law enforcement take to stop the trafficking and distribution of illegal substances can be looked at as harsh and over the top,or just and correct,perception is in the eye of the beholder.

    The narcissistic mind says,perception is fine,as long as it's mine.

    How does the alcoholic look at drinking/sales of alcohol if it is brought into question?He/she becomes defensive, their 'vice' is being attacked,the security for their use is becoming a possible problem,and they don't like change, they want what they want.

    I have been where you are in the 'pot legalization' fight, when I was a user.

    I would have liked cocaine to become legal too, for many years.

    The society we live in doesn't see things that way,they say no,we MUST follow that ruling,or end up behind bars.. etc.

    If we put our children in harms way and the law has to step in, we can't put blame on the law for doing it's job.The responsibility(which most users are greatly lacking in)lies in the persons who have it,sell it,house it,etc.

    I am totally against this post from the get go.Bad rep for cops doing their best in the situation given them.
  • May 14, 2010, 08:20 PM
    excon

    Hello K:

    Thanks for your post. Nobody said pot is harmless. The reason to legalize it, is because the harm the cops do by enforcing the law, is by magnitudes, more harmful to society than possessing pot is. Just because they wrote it down in a book, doesn't make it the right thing to do.

    excon
  • May 14, 2010, 08:21 PM
    thisisit

    What would be wrong with serving the warrant on the suspect while he was away from home, transporting him back to his home and doing a peaceful search with the suspect in handcuffs? The man has a family. Granted he wouldn't qualify for father of the year if he is a drug dealer, but his family, could safely be spared this kind of trauma. And doing a peaceful search would spare any need to shoot an innocent animal too.
  • May 14, 2010, 08:28 PM
    Aurora_Bell

    I wish it was that easy thisisit. I honestly think it is power happy people. They could so they did.
  • May 14, 2010, 08:34 PM
    KBC
    To legalize a gateway drug because it would end law enforcements 'harm' just doesn't float.

    The law would still have to enforce certain facets of pot usage/growing,etc.Legalizing doesn't mean making it farm-able to the public,it would mean that the government would have to produce,process,distribute,regulate,etc... this isn't a step in the right direction.They would still have to stop the illegal manufacturing,sales,set up special tax usages for the taxes taken in(for the treatment of the new phase of drug users, those who move on from weed to the other drugs, which you and I both know happens)

    And to still stop the drugs coming in from Mexico,Columbia, Thailand,etc.. C'mon,we know the trades wouldn't stop,they would just find ways to offer their product for less than the USA does, marketing theirs to outdo the USA.

    Keeping this stuff illegal doesn't require any changes.(and by the looks of the country right now, changes wouldn't be a real good idea)
  • May 14, 2010, 08:40 PM
    KBC
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thisisit View Post
    What would be wrong with serving the warrent on the suspect while he was away from home, transporting him back to his home and doing a peaceful search with the suspect in handcuffs? The man has a family. Granted he wouldn't qualify for father of the year if he is a drug dealer, but his family, could safely be spared this kind of trauma. And doing a peaceful search would spare any need to shoot an innocent animal too.

    Hindsight is always 20/20.

    I am not in law enforcement and to second guess their tactics would be questioning their abilities to carry out their duties.

    Have you ever watched a raid happening?Some go very smooth,while others(which would be like this one,making news),have problems.Same with any other news stories, the ones that go wrong are always the ones publicized.Would you have watched this story if the kids and dogs weren't in the picture?Probably not,it wouldn't have made a YouTube video.
  • May 14, 2010, 09:06 PM
    thisisit

    Yes, my daughter and I saw a raid happening in progress down the street from our house about 10 years ago. It was sort of like this one, over kill. No shots were fired, but the house was stormed and destroyed. The squad (or whatever they are called) had a large bus size van parked closer to my house and about six unmarked cars lining the street. The men with the guns did not have uniforms on and they had ski masks on their faces. The occupants were arrested and taken away and the police or swat team or whatever left the front door of the house wide open, every light in the house on, every piece of furniture broken and overturned, lamps, TVs, coffee tables upended and tossed around. It was frightening to watch and rather horrifying to see that they would leave the house wide open too.
  • May 14, 2010, 09:07 PM
    thisisit

    I don't know what they were looking for and I don't know what they found. We moved out of that neighborhood shortly after that.
  • May 14, 2010, 09:15 PM
    KBC
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thisisit View Post
    The men with the guns did not have uniforms on and they had ski masks on their faces. The occupants were arrested and taken away and the police or swat team or whatever left the front door of the house wide open, every light in the house on, every piece of furniture broken and overturned, lamps, TVs, coffee tables upended and tossed around. It was frightening to watch and rather horrifying to see that they would leave the house wide open too.

    I was on a contract,it was an urban redevelopment project, the occupants were all crack users, we all knew this,but our job was for the exterior only(We weren't bothered by them), till the drug enforcement team showed up, 8 of the largest black officers got out of 2 of the smallest cars(the springs rose as they exited their vehicles), 2 came to me and began asking why I was there,what I was doing,etc.. I had the contract with me and it was clear I was working on the property(ladder set up,tool belt on,etc)they left me alone... the people in the house though... wow, the destruction was total.. we hardly had to gut the inside, besides cleaning up all the broken furniture.
  • May 15, 2010, 03:03 AM
    Catsmine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KBC View Post
    To legalize a gateway drug because it would end law enforcements 'harm' just doesn't float.

    The "gateway drug" label I take issue with. In my experience over the decades, the only gateway provided by marijuana is proximity. Using it doesn't provide any sensations similar to other drugs. Dealers, however, prefer to sell less bulky material at higher profits so coke/crack are often offered, or pills. They're going to do less time for rocks or pills than they do for grass, so it's in their best interests to steer their market that way.

    As for government regulation of legal marijuana, American Tobacco Company has been ready to change its name since '72, and pay taxes.
  • May 15, 2010, 06:01 AM
    KBC
    Tit for tat,, the 'changing' of corporate labels,like American tobacco, to American weed farmers, etc.

    The gateway is directly attributed to the proximity effect.Once in the 'drug culture',all the 'other vices' and drugs you think you'd NEVER do become,well, less scary,less difficult to access,exposure to crack for the average(if there is such a thing as average) teen is low,until they take that first step towards the drug using culture.

    It isn't just for the profits of less time for the crime, weed has been 'socially accepted' in the drug culture,crack(freebasing),Heroin,Cocaine,were the heavy hitters, looked upon(from the novice)as something to fear, only the real druggies use those, till they want to try it(Gateway) ,speed(ampheds.etc),Downers(Valium,barbs.. etc),and the such were for the pill heads, less respected in the drug culture, until they want to try it(gateway)

    I think you get the meaning that I have for a gateway drug.
  • May 15, 2010, 06:19 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KBC View Post
    Heroin,Cocaine,were the heavy hitters, looked upon(from the novice)as something to fear, only the real druggies use those, till they want to try it(Gateway), speed (ampheds.etc), Downers (Valium,barbs.. etc), and the such were for the pill heads, less respected in the drug culture, until they want to try it(gateway)

    I think you get the meaning that I have for a gateway drug.

    Hello again, KBC:

    So, if somebody DIDN'T try a new drug, after they guy next to him did, would that debunk your gateway theory? It SHOULD, but it won't.

    Quote:

    The law would still have to enforce certain facets of pot usage/growing,etc.Legalizing doesn't mean making it farm-able to the public,it would mean that the government would have to produce,process,distribute,regulate,etc...
    Nahhhh... The government doesn't produce, process, or distribute tobacco. They DO regulate it, just like they would pot. But you make it sound like regulating is something the government has no experience doing. Really?

    Excon
  • May 15, 2010, 06:35 AM
    KBC
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Nahhhh... The government doesn't produce, process, or distribute tobacco. They DO regulate it, just like they would pot. But you make it sound like regulating is something the government has no experience doing. Really?

    excon

    They don't ,you are correct,the regulate it.

    BUT! (you knew there would be a BUT involved:p)

    How many people do you know of that have grown their own Tobacco for their personal use,or for distribution? I'm sure there have been some, but for the most part,the only places to grow it are in such a central area,regulation is all but a given due to geography.

    Weed can be grown from here to the heavens with no way to keep tabs on the growers,who grows how much,who SELLS how much,etc.. I think you get my point.

    The fight for legalization of weed hasn't produced the results once thought of.Too many 'wingers' won't allow something like this to pass,even with extreme measures taken by a few cops,or the actions not taken by some bad cops,etc.
  • May 15, 2010, 06:53 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KBC View Post
    Weed can be grown from here to the heavens with no way to keep tabs on the growers,who grows how much,who SELLS how much,etc..I think you get my point.

    The fight for legalization of weed hasn't produced the results once thought of. Too many 'wingers' won't allow something like this to pass,even with extreme measures taken by a few cops,or the actions not taken by some bad cops,etc.

    Hello again, K:

    Couple things... If weed IS legalized, who cares who grows how much, and where it's sold, as long as it's TAXED? That's the American way.

    Now, your second paragraph has some truth in it, but it also sounds defeatist. I agree, the fight for legalization hasn't produced results... The failure of the drug war, though, will all by itself, produce the desired result.. After all, 40 years is a long time to be banging our national heads against the wall. Can you imagine how good it will feel to STOP doing that? Here's a recent article by the AP you might want to read..

    But, to stop trying to correct this wrong, even if 'wingers' are against my efforts, is something that I'll NEVER do. I even think I'll succeed.

    excon
  • May 15, 2010, 07:00 AM
    cdad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KBC View Post
    Tit for tat,,,the 'changing' of corporate labels,like American tobacco,,to American weed farmers,,etc.

    The gateway is directly attributed to the proximity effect.Once in the 'drug culture',all the 'other vices' and drugs you think you'd NEVER do become,well,,less scary,less difficult to access,exposure to crack for the average(if there is such a thing as average) teen is low,until they take that first step towards the drug using culture.

    it isn't just for the profits of less time for the crime,,weed has been 'socially accepted' in the drug culture,crack(freebasing),Heroin,Cocaine,were the heavy hitters,,looked upon(from the novice)as something to fear,,only the real druggies use those,,till they want to try it(Gateway) ,speed(ampheds.etc),Downers(Valium,barbs..etc),and the such were for the pill heads,,less respected in the drug culture,,until they want to try it(gateway)

    I think you get the meaning that I have for a gateway drug.

    Do you think that it would be a gateway drug if we stopped lying to the kids?? I guess that doesn't work for the gobermint. Remember reefer maddness? That has a lot to do with the gate being left open. Some kid tries it and finds out they didn't have a psychotic episode and that they were lied to for all those years. So when the next one comes along they are clueless. When you have billboards etc showing a meth makeover your putting the truth out there. But if you lied along the way its not going to make a difference. That's why its high time to address the issues with truth. California has legal pot houses. It doesn't seem that people are dropping like flies over it. And quite frankly should people start dying over drug use in an extensive way the next guy will think first before he even considers doing it.

    This issue needs to be brought to light and people need to get real about it.
  • May 15, 2010, 07:16 AM
    excon

    Hello again, dad:

    *greenie*

    Soooo, true. People realize they've been hoodwinked by reefer madness, so it follows that they'll think they're being hoodwinked again by the billboard you mention - even if it's telling the truth.

    To me, it looks like government LYING is the gateway.

    Interestingly, 50 MILLION Americans don't smoke cigarettes any more, simply because the government started telling the truth about tobacco. Would you believe that we accomplished that feat without putting a single person in jail?

    excon
  • May 15, 2010, 07:25 AM
    cdad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, dad:

    *greenie*

    Soooo, true. People realize they've been hoodwinked by reefer madness, so it follows that they'll think they're being hoodwinked again by the billboard you mention - even if it's telling the truth.

    To me, it looks like government LYING is the gateway.

    Interestingly, 50 MILLION people don't smoke cigarettes any more, simply because the government started telling the truth about tobacco. Would you believe that we accomplished that feat without putting a single person in jail?

    excon

    Stranger things have happened. But with the truth people can make up their own minds rather then being robotic in their responses. Its all about the great evils we all have to deal with. If you can determine the truth then the appropriate response can be formulated. Isn't that how people get over addictions is by seeing and acknowlaging the truth about themselfes and their situations?
  • May 15, 2010, 07:58 AM
    Aurora_Bell

    Greenie for you Dad! Great post.
  • May 15, 2010, 08:23 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    But, to stop trying to correct this wrong, even if 'wingers' are against my efforts, is something that I'll NEVER do. I even think I'll succeed.

    Hello again,

    And, I AM succeeding...

    The newly minted senator from Virginia, Jim Webb stepped firmly on a political third rail when he introduced a bill to examine sweeping reforms to the criminal justice system. Interestingly, he escaped unscathed. Maybe it IS time for a discussion.

    Webb's reform is backed by a coalition of liberals, conservatives and libertarians that couldn't have existed even a few years ago. His bill calls for the creation of a bipartisan commission to study the issue for 18 months and come back with concrete legislative recommendations.

    Webb couches the effort in fairly straightforward terms. "Let's start with a premise that I don't think a lot of Americans are aware of. We have five percent of the world's population; we have 25 percent of the world's known prison population," Webb said on the Senate floor when introducing the bill.

    "There are only two possibilities here: either we have the most evil people on earth living in the United States; or we are doing something dramatically wrong in terms of how we approach the issue of criminal justice."

    Things, they are a changing...

    excon
  • May 15, 2010, 08:25 AM
    Catsmine
    Excellent point, Dad. How long will it take us to get over W.R. Hearst's campaign to criminalize hemp? That is where ALL the marijuana hooey came from. The truly funny thing about it is that you don't get high from hemp, unless you smoke constantly.
  • May 15, 2010, 09:25 AM
    cdad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Catsmine View Post
    Excellent point, Dad. How long will it take us to get over W.R. Hearst's campaign to criminalize hemp? That is where ALL the marijuana hooey came from. The truly funny thing about it is that you don't get high from hemp, unless you smoke constantly.

    To me and this statement may be out there for some. But in today's climate we need to return to hemp and the benefits it once gave this great country. Plus it would be a perfect substitute for America's cash crop farmers instead of tobacco. Hemp has many uses and almost all its parts can be used and recycled in some way. Hemp oils could be made into fuel rather then using up our food supply (like corn). The stalks can be made into paper or jeans or even building materials. Plus as has been said it grows almost anywhere. It's the paraniod politicians that are holding it back and restricting it because of the hybrid use now known as marijuana. Its insane. The only thing that would get you high from hemp is a lack of oxygen.
  • May 17, 2010, 06:59 AM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, smoothy:

    Just SAYING I'm wrong, smoothy, doesn't make it so. It truly doesn't.

    excon

    There is a Law... its on the books... its being enforced.

    Sorry, but THAT discussion is already closed. Its NOT open fopr discussion any more than the Law against Statutory rape... which IS something with far fewer victims... than the drug trade. And no less deserving of being outlawed.
  • May 17, 2010, 07:01 AM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again,

    And, I AM succeeding...

    The newly minted senator from Virginia, Jim Webb stepped firmly on a political third rail when he introduced a bill to examine sweeping reforms to the criminal justice system. Interestingly, he escaped unscathed. Maybe it IS time for a discussion.

    Webb's reform is backed by a coalition of liberals, conservatives and libertarians that couldn't have existed even a few years ago. His bill calls for the creation of a bipartisan commission to study the issue for 18 months and come back with concrete legislative recommendations.

    Webb couches the effort in fairly straightforward terms. "Let's start with a premise that I don't think a lot of Americans are aware of. We have five percent of the world's population; we have 25 percent of the world's known prison population," Webb said on the Senate floor when introducing the bill.

    "There are only two possibilities here: either we have the most evil people on earth living in the United States; or we are doing something dramatically wrong in terms of how we approach the issue of criminal justice."

    Things, they are a changin....

    excon

    WHy don't you take up Defending NAMBLA... Its no less deserving than drug addicts are to getting their fix is.


    After all... if they WEREN'T addicts... then why is getting stoned the Foremost item on their minds... hmmmmm... Lot like a Heroin addict... or a crank head... always looking ahead on how to get their next fix.

    You know Pedophiles can seem to get over their problem either... perhaps if they make that legal the problem will disappear too.
  • May 17, 2010, 07:22 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    WHy don't you take up Defending NAMBLA.....Its no less deserving than drug addicts are to getting their fix is.

    Hello again, smoothy:

    You don't understand the distinctions I made earlier about victimless crimes. Instead you just pronounced me wrong. Let me try again. Pedophiles have victims. Pot smokers don't. Until you GET that distinction, we don't have a lot to say to each other.

    Now, if you'd like to engage me in THAT argument, I'll be happy to take you on. But, just SAYING I'm wrong, don't cut it. In fact, I don't think you know what an argument is. You think it's FOURTH grade crap. I LOVE to argue, smoothy, but I'm growing tired of your silliness.

    excon
  • May 17, 2010, 07:33 AM
    thisisit
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    the Law against Statutory rape....which IS something with far fewer victims...than the drug trade. And no less deserving of being outlawed.


    Sorry but I think with statutory rape, ALL of the children involved are victims. Not far fewer, they are ALL victims.
  • May 17, 2010, 07:39 AM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, smoothy:

    You don't understand the distinctions I made earlier about victimless crimes. Instead you just pronounced me wrong. Let me try again. Pedophiles have victims. Pot smokers don't. Until you GET that distinction, we don't have a lot to say to each other.

    Now, if you'd like to engage me in THAT argument, I'll be happy to take you on. But, just SAYING I'm wrong, don't cut it. In fact, I don't think you know what an argument is. You think it's FOURTH grade crap. I LOVE to argue, smoothy, but I'm growing tired of your silliness.

    excon

    Illegal Drug use being a victimless crime is a figment of a drug users imagination.
  • May 17, 2010, 07:43 AM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thisisit View Post
    Sorry but I think with statutory rape, ALL of the children involved are victims. Not far fewer, they are ALL victims.

    You mean.. like all the dead non-victims of the drug trade?


    Actually read back on many of my arguments... I don't actually think there are no victims in statutory rape. And statutory rape and pedophillia are not exactly the same thing even if that distinction is not clear as black and white.

    Pedophillia is the far worse of the two.
  • May 17, 2010, 07:43 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Now, if you'd like to engage me in THAT argument, I'll be happy to take you on. But, just SAYING I'm wrong, don't cut it.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    Illegal Drug use being a victimless crime is a figment of a drug users imagination.

    Hello again, smoothy:

    Game, set and match.

    excon
  • May 17, 2010, 07:50 AM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, smoothy:

    Game, set and match.

    excon

    Really... exactly WHERE did you definatively disprove the well proven facts of numerous crimes committed by Narco Trafficers against innocent victims here and around the world are false? Because I missed it.
  • May 17, 2010, 08:16 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    Really...exactly WHERE did you definatively disprove the well proven facts of numerous crimes committed by Narco Trafficers against innocent victims here and around the world are false? Because I missed it.

    Hello again, smoothy:

    Here's the problem we have. You confuse the drug trade with drug use. And, you make up stuff. Neither helps.

    But, I'll try again. Drug PROHIBITION causes crime. Drug USE doesn't. If you need evidence of that, all you have to do is look back into our own history. When alcohol was illegal, there was a lot of crime surrounding it. Since it was made legal, that crime disappeared. There's a reason that happened.

    So, let me be perfectly clear - alcohol use does not cause crime.

    Please THINK about that for a minute. Read the WORDS, and don't make up stuff. No, I didn't say drunk driving is cool. No, I didn't say beating up your wife when you're drunk is OK. No, I didn't say being an alcoholic is just hunky dory. I didn't say ANY of those things. I said ONE thing, and one thing only. I'll say it again if you didn't understand it. Alcohol USE does not cause crime.

    If you GET that, then you'd get that drug use doesn't cause crime either. But, I don't think you DO get that. I don't know why. I think you believe reefer madness sort of stuff, like snorting a line of coke COMPELS you to rob a 7/Eleven.

    excon
  • May 17, 2010, 08:34 AM
    KBC
    Hi excon(I'll try to keep this as congenial as you guys do)

    Alcohol sales are a direct contributor to crime(could be drunk driving,could be murder,could be rape)

    Drug sales are a direct contributor to crime(it is illegal)

    Alcohol USE is a direct contributor to crimes.

    Drug USE is a direct contributor to crimes.(it it also illegal to use drugs)

    Since alcohol sales have been made legal,you say that crime has lessened?And you are saying that the jails are fuller in the USA?And that the justice system is defective?
  • May 17, 2010, 08:41 AM
    Catsmine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KBC View Post
    Hi excon(I'll try to keep this as congenial as you guys do)

    Alcohol sales are a direct contributor to crime(could be drunk driving,could be murder,could be rape)

    Drug sales are a direct contributor to crime(it is illegal)

    Alcohol USE is a direct contributor to crimes.

    Drug USE is a direct contributor to crimes.(it it also illegal to use drugs)

    Since alcohol sales have been made legal,you say that crime has lessened?And you are saying that the jails are fuller in the USA?And that the justice system is defective?


    Hi, KBC (pardon the pun)

    I think the two words you put in boldface are misspelled. Shouldn't there be an "ab" in front of "use?" Or did you mean that all alcohol and drug consumption directly causes crimes?

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