Just noticed... we have another Wolverine here!!
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Just noticed... we have another Wolverine here!!
I do not think anybody can continue any discussions. In their eyes they know it all. I could say more but it is all self explanatory.
It astounds me how the Canadians that frequent this forum defend their health care system. Since I am not Canadian (thank goodness) I cannot comment except from what I have heard first hand from Canadians that I worked with over the years. In the large cities the system works relatively well albeit slow at times for tests or procedures that we up till now have considered routine. The problem comes when you get to the small towns in the provinces of the west. Health care has been nearly non existent. Clinics are open maybe one or two days a week because of the lack of doctors and nurses. If you need a simple surgery you must go to one of the major cities where you are placed on a waiting list. Again, this is not my opinion, but words spoken by Canadians about their system. Sadly Nobama and congress is forcing us into this sort of rationing system that will place those of us over the age of 60 toward the bottom of the list for any surgery because we are not as productive as people under 40. Is that a better system than one in which we are responsible for paying for our own health care out of our own pocket? That debate will rage on for a long time, With everyone having an opinion on it. But is sure is fun watching the fight.
That is simply untrue. I live in a very small rural area and the health care is astounding. Simple surgery does not take long. Tests do not take long. There is no lack of doctors here. Clinics are open all week, 5 days a week. Yes, it is only your opinion. I am a Canadian speaking the truth about my experience. I am out in the west and the care is a lot better here. I have lived all across canada from the far east coast, to central canada to the west coast.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
Your completely wrong. By the way I am glad and happy not to be American myself.
I guess Canada may be looking at healthcare reform also:
http://www.cma.ca/multimedia/CMA/Con...get2010_en.pdf
Quote:
The poll, conducted for the CMA by Ipsos Reid, asked Canadians if they agreed or disagreed that health care would eclipse other public spending priorities. Results found that 59% of respondents said they would. When pressed as to how the sustainability crunch in health care spending should be addressed, most (91%) said making the health care system more efficient and effective was the best way to slow down growing health care costs. Two-thirds (66%) said rewards and penalties to encourage healthy living could help slow down growing health costs.
G&P
Well that is a poll, where was it conducted? How many people took part? Etc. Etc. Sorry this Canadian and many others do not want to adapt to an American style system. We want to continue with the system we have here. Simple.
By CMA; Canadian doctors. I would assume they know what they are talking about when it comes to Canadian healthcare. No system is perfect: healthcare costs are rising in Canada as well as here in the US; despite the differences in the way healthcare is delivered.
G&P
I know, NK says it all the time. It still doesn't account for the number of Canadians seeking care here and the growth of private care facilities in Canada which I've documented here a number of times. Apparently a lot of Canadians aren't as enamored with it as you and NK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
I don't understand why you have a need to convince us that we should be unhappy with our healthcare system. Are you that bored? Can't stand to see someone happy?
I don't know about anyone else but I'm happy that you're happy... I've said it before. Why are you trying to convince us you're all happy when the evidence says otherwise?
I don't see evidence of the evidence.
You're pretty good at searching my posts, find it. It's there.
Your job seems to be to find all the unhappy people in the world and all the lunatics in order to prove some point. The fact is that if some politician here were to run on the platform of privatizing healthcare he/she wouldn't get very far, there would be a serious lack of support.
NK, I’m not interested in playing your games, I said I’m happy you’re happy and I mean it. In fact, I couldn’t care less what Canada does with their health care system. Like most Americans I just don’t want ours to be like yours. It’s not my problem that you’re overly sensitive to having it’s shortcomings pointed out as an example of what we don’t want.
That's not what my inlaws in Montreal tell me... and that's not a backwater city they live IN Montreal, not a suburb. WHen my wife's aunt needed surgery for a rather bad case of diverticulitis... she had to wait 6 months to have it. In the USA if you need it, you get it, within days when its elective... immediately when its serious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
Canadians might be used to waiting in line for stuff when they are sick... we here in the USA have learned that's neither desired or acceptable. You only HAVE to wait when you have an inefficient system that can't keep up with need or demand.
And my in-laws in Canada number 12, in 4 different families. I'm not hearing this from one idividual, but from all of them.
Hello again, smoothy:
I'm sure there's rationing of health care in Canada. But, why do you think there ISN'T health care rationing here? We DO, of course, ration health care. Our rationing is based on one's ability to pay, whereas Canada's rationing is based on one's ability to wait.
At least in Canada, someone is seen by a doctor eventually. Here, if you don't have any money, you DON'T see a doctor. Our system is fine if you have money. It's not so fine if you don't.
Now, you can argue that our system of rationing is better because it's based on capitalism, the free market, and the right stuff. But, to put down the Canadians because they ration AT ALL, is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.
excon
That, is a bald-faced lie.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Chill out dude. I may mis speak, sometimes, but I ain't no liar. You're right. A poor person can see a doctor in the emergency room. I should have been more precise and said that if you're poor, you don't get health care.
Now THAT ain't no lie.
excon
WHO rations health care here? Don't tell me I don't get mine rationed because I'm white...Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Now You made a statement YOU have to prove... because its patently False... and it's a talking point the left uses all the time.
YOU said " Here, if you don't have any money, you DON'T see a doctor. " which is total Bullsh*t. Emergency rooms are not and have not been allowed to turn away people for lack of insurance or money, PROVE otherwise.
If you have a serious illness... "eventually" isn't going to cut it.
Cancer, heart attack... etc... there are a LOT of situations "Eventually" isn't acceptable for.
Canadians might be fine with dying for the "greater good" of a socialist system. I'm not, nor are MOST Americans. Those who like the Canadian system so much are welcome to move there to get it... they however lose any "right of return" once they find out reality is not what is advertised. Many Canadians never knew another system or remember a different one. Of course THEY won't see the problem, because they don't know a better system to compare to.
Still not true and you know it. You forget I have first hand experience with my adult daughter who didn't have a penny when she was diagnosed with AIDS. You don't get any poorer than that and she has always had health care - including dental - since. I don't know about in California where she is now, but she had first rate doctors here.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Must been that last hit...
Yup, I mis spoke again, I should have said that if you're poor, you get medicaid. If you're a member of the working poor, you don't get health care...
Now, before you say that health care is available at the ER, I'm going to call YOU a liar. We've had this discussion before. You say that going to see a doctor at the ER when you're sick is the same thing as getting health care. I say it's not. Plus, if you say the working poor get health care, because you know someone who's poor and they get great health care, I'm again, going to call YOU the liar.
excon
Still total Bullsh*t...Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
My brother years ago got downsized... right after he started his new job he had a ruptured appendix... he wasn't yet covered under his new employers insurance... he had no money...
was he tossed out on the street to die like you claim here... no, they operated on him... when he had complications that meant he had to be fed intravieniously for a month... he got it...
And contrary to what YOU claimed yet again following Democrat party talking points which are pure propaganda and false... you DO get needed care even IF you aren't insured, OR on Medicaid.
Why YOU and the left THINK you should get top tier care without paying a dime for anything is typical Socialist mindset. Basic care is all anyone who is unwilling to pay for deserves.
I suppose you complain Soup Kitchens don't serve prime rib and lobster too?
Doctors spend a lot of time in school, a lot of money to go to school... and why people on the left think they should get everything free while they overvalue their own time is beyond understanding.
When was the last time YOU worked for free, or paid someone else's bill when you were out?
Do the poor deserve new cars... a new free house... free airfares to the French Riviera? Will YOU pay for it for them? I know I won't.
Ever go to an emergency room... want to know how many "Poor" people all have their own cell phones... ever notice how those cost far more than basic service in your house... see their misplaced priorities?
Hello again smoothy:Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Then the 35 million Obama is going to cover is just a waste of money, because all those people NOW get the greatest health care in the world... Is THAT what you're saying?
So, the idea to cover them is really just a secret commie plot to send the country into ruin? What IS the point of covering them, if they already have good care? Maybe a secret commie plot to "take over" the rest of the country - although I don't see how insuring all these people is going to do that.
Really, smoothy. People DIE here in this country because they don't have access to health care. This law is going to help that.
I know. I know. You're going to stick with your commie BS.
excon
Exactly... a TOTAL waste of money... THEY have money to eat out... they have money for cell phones... they have money for cable TV, they have money for video games... they have money for everything but what they should buy first.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
"Really, smoothy. People DIE here in this country because they don't have access to health care. This law is gonna help that."
Total Bulls*t... Prove it... If people were thrown out on the street from hospitals to die... the left wing news would be all over it... so that claim should be real easy for you to prove. With 30 million (12 million of whom are illegals)... there while be hundreds of thousands of deaths in front of hospitals by your assertations.
Because if you can't back that lie up with some evidence... then read into what that makes you.
And because some DNC official blowhard makes that claim, even Dumbo Ears Obama... its still a bold faced lie.
And ANY person who does or ever has worked in a hospital knows the LAW is they HAVE to treat them.
Funny how if YOU was forced to work for free... you'd be screaming slavery... or forced servitude. Yet you expect Doctors to do it.
Expect MANY doctors to close up shop rather than work like that... If I was a doctor... I'd take a hiatus... rather than work for less than free. Because they still have bills and rents to pay... no income is better than having to pay to work.
And we are talking FEDERAL law that requires them to take anyone who walks into a ER... not state or local laws.
- Montreal is a city in the province of Quebec.
- Canada has 10 provinces and 3 territories. So to say that experiences in Montreal speak for the rest of canada is just unbelievable.
- Each province has the responsibility to deliver health care to the citizens.
- Quebec government has always wanted to do things there own way, be there own distant country and etc etc... To say there changes they want in health care, and also to be arrogant enough to think the rest of the country should follow suit because of one province. It does not work that way, sorry.
- So what, Montreal had bad experiences. That does not speak for the rest of canada.
- Nor do the americans know enough about Canada to know a lot. Tend to be so self absorbed in their own stuff and own issues that they have no clue what is going else where.
- On the other hand I think a lot of us, knows more about the united states because we do pay attention to the world around us. Not just focus on our own selves all the time.
This organization thinks there is a coast to coast need for private care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
Is that a universal talking point outside of the U.S. I imagine it must be printed in textbooks across Europe and Canada as I've read it almost verbatim more times than I can count. Can we get a little more original with our insults?Quote:
the americans... Tend to be so self absorbed in their own stuff and own issues that they have no clue what is going else where.
It does not matter what organization thinks what, what matters is what Canadians think.
It is not an insult it is the truth. There is a big difference.
And as I said, if you love it then great, but the evidence still shows a lot of Canadians don't feel the same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
As if ignorance is a distinctly American trait...Quote:
It is not an insult it is the truth. There is a big difference.
Hey speech, if I post a website that shows an american group that favours universal healthcare does that now prove that a majority of Americans want that? Is that we play that game?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Facts?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Go to any inner city university training program and I guarantee you that on every ward there multiple inpatients that have no insurance or the hospital / taxpayor is paying for it. Leave the keyboard behind and experience real life- go to Cook county in chicago or Charity in New Orleans or Kings county in New York or Grady in Atlanta. They get world class cutting edge medical treatment that can't even be imagined in countries with socialized medicine.
Also include the Shriner's hospital, St Jude Hospitals - why not donate?
G&P
And here I thought it was a universal system in Canada .It is a system where provinces determine the level of care ? Sort of like the United States then, where each state determines the level of care the Medicaid system provides... or at least they did before Obamacare.Quote:
Montreal is a city in the province of Quebec.
- Canada has 10 provinces and 3 territories. So to say that experiences in Montreal speak for the rest of canada is just unbelievable.
To tell you the truth ,I suspect here in NY the truly needy are going to get gypted because our social safety net is generous.
This is an indication that you think the rest of the world is stupid and inferior to the US, there are many medical innovators in other parts of the world. The US health system is ranked 37th by the World Health Organisation behind such places of socialised medicine as France or perhaps the whole of Western Europe, Australia, Canada and ranks 14th on the scale of preventable deaths, 24th on life expectancy 95th in fairness of the financial contribution and only first in health expenditure per capita.Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
What does it tell us, that cutting edge that benefits the few you imagine you have available to you as a justification for the high cost of health care is actually delivering outcomes you would expect in Slovenia. All you are doing is keeping the doctors and insurance companies rich. I am glad I live in a system in which the delivery of any procedure isn't dependent upon the whim of an insurance company deadhead.
The WHO also made this comment
Quote:
The authors also note that "it is difficult to disregard the observation that the slow decline in U.S. amenable mortality has coincided with an increase in the uninsured population, an issue that is now receiving renewed attention
WHO ?
They don't control for factors that have nothing to do with MEDICAL CARE - such things as obesity, ethnicity, smoking rates, homicide rates etc. things that have a big influence on mortality and life span rates but are not a good measure of actual medical care. In a measure of medical care, such as cancer survival rates, even the British medical journal, Lancet, has factual evidence that the US healthcare system is better.
As one who has been working in the US healthcare field for more than 20 years, If you think that people without the ability to pay or don't have insurance, don't get medical care, go to any hospital, any clinic, any health department and ask how much care is given free, or written off. Ask any ER doctor or nurse how many people, without any insurance ARE seen and taken care of.
G&P
There is a universal standard for Canada. There are laws each province is supposed to abide by. If they do not comply then they will get into a lot of trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
The province, Quebec is a unique situation on its own, but as said earlier. There are good hospitals, bad hospitals, good doctors and bad doctors. Just because people in Montreal quebec has had problems does not indicate that the whole country is the same.
As far as the social net, you guys in the state have none. What safety net do you guys have?
It is fairly obvious isn't it? They rely on welfare or the charity of others, I don't this think is much different to a third world countryQuote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
What you seem to ignore are the facts as documented by an independent organisation, in any case I thought we were discussing medical care. You want to discuss removing some of the causes of ill health, then start with your big corporations in food, tobacco, power. You want to say that your ethnicity causes you to have bad statistics, how come a place like Australia which is home to every race on Earth is higher up the scale than you are. It isn't ethnicity, but life style that affects health. Unless you are making a specific comment about particular races, ethnicity has no place in the argument. As far as mortality is concerned, certain other factors come into play, such as gun ownership, drug addiction, unemployment.Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
You miss the point. If someone dies due to heart disease in country A and does not in Country B, you have to control for confounding factors: tobacco use, cholesterol levels, age, high blood pressure, diabetes, family history. If there are more of these factors in Country A rather than country B then it is no surprise that Country a has higher rate of and deaths due to heart disease. That rate has nothing to do with actual medical care. You have to compare apples to apples, which the WHO does not.
I guess you are in favor of the government making lifestyle choices for you - rules for what you can eat or how much or what you can drink and you dare not smoke or have a waist above a certain size etc...
What ever happened to personal responsibility and choice?
Is it right for someone not to play an active role in their own health?
No one put a gun to your head and told you to smoke, eat fast food, and spend most of your time not moving around, so when you have metabolic syndrome why should you expect another taxpayor to pay for the lifestyle you led?
That is why costs are going up, the majority of healthcare dollars spent here or in socialized medicine are paid for by someone other than the person receiving the service.
G&P
G&P
High Blood Pressure Statistics
Quote:
Non-Hispanic blacks are more likely to suffer from high blood pressure than are non-Hispanic whites.
Within the African-American community, those with the highest rates of hypertension, are more likely to be middle aged or older, less educated, overweight or obese, physically inactive, and to have diabetes.
In 2006 the death rates per 100,000 population from high blood pressure were 15.6 for white males, 51.1 for black males, 14.3 for white females and 37.7 for black females.
And yes, ethnicity does make a difference - a factual medical difference.
G&P
Where do you get this stuff from? You have been listening to insurance company propaganda. The government doesn't make life style choices for me, it supports whatever choice I make but it does endeavour to have me make the right choice through information. I am probably personally paying for some wrong life style choices when I was younger but the government says nothing about that in it's approach to providing health care. Unlike your insurance companies it does not discriminate for pre-existing conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
The reality is you just don't get it because you live in a society which has a wrong idea of what freedom is really about. Freedom and Liberty is about every person having an equal opportunity to enjoy life to the fullest. Freedom isn't about every person doing his damnest to climb over the top of every other person.
What part of me acknowledging - for the third time in this post alone now - that some like it and some, don't you get? I'm not misrepresenting Canadians or their health care system, don't misrepresent me.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
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