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  • Mar 10, 2010, 12:21 PM
    tomder55

    Quote:

    I don't know about that... Sarah Palin said that her family trekked down to White Horse for free treatment of her brother's burnt foot.
    I had to do some research to find out what you were talking about.

    What Palin was referring to was when her parents went across the border for care in the 1960s .
    The problem with the left seizing on this statement is that the Yukon Territory did not become part of the Canadian socialized system until 1972.

    Also even today Americans crossing the border for any type of medical care are not eligible to partake in the government run program. They still have to pay a fee ,and I'm sure the Heath family also did... it was not free.

    Did Palin as an adult cross the border to get care for herself or her family as a Canadian Minister recently did ? Nope.
  • Mar 12, 2010, 08:34 AM
    speechlesstx
    Democratic pollsters Patrick H. Caddell and Douglas E. Schoen have warned the Dems on their delusion over health care reform:

    Quote:

    Bluntly put, this is the political reality:

    First, the battle for public opinion has been lost. Comprehensive health care has been lost. If it fails, as appears possible, Democrats will face the brunt of the electorate's reaction. If it passes, however, Democrats will face a far greater calamitous reaction at the polls. Wishing, praying or pretending will not change these outcomes.

    Nothing has been more disconcerting than to watch Democratic politicians and their media supporters deceive themselves into believing that the public favors the Democrats' current health-care plan. Yes, most Americans believe, as we do, that real health-care reform is needed. And yes, certain proposals in the plan are supported by the public.

    However, a solid majority of Americans opposes the massive health-reform plan. Four-fifths of those who oppose the plan strongly oppose it, according to Rasmussen polling this week, while only half of those who support the plan do so strongly. Many more Americans believe the legislation will worsen their health care, cost them more personally and add significantly to the national deficit. Never in our experience as pollsters can we recall such self-deluding misconstruction of survey data.

    The White House document released Thursday arguing that reform is becoming more popular is in large part fighting the last war. This isn't 1994; it's 2010. And the bottom line is that the American public is overwhelmingly against this bill in its totality even if they like some of its parts.

    The notion that once enactment is forced, the public will suddenly embrace health-care reform could not be further from the truth -- and is likely to become a rallying cry for disaffected Republicans, independents and, yes, Democrats.

    Second, the country is moving away from big government, with distrust growing more generally toward the role of government in our lives. Scott Rasmussen asked last month whose decisions people feared more in health care: that of the federal government or of insurance companies. By 51 percent to 39 percent, respondents feared the decisions of federal government more. This is astounding given the generally negative perception of insurance companies.

    CNN found last month that 56 percent of Americans believe that the government has become so powerful it constitutes an immediate threat to the freedom and rights of citizens. When only 21 percent of Americans say that Washington operates with the consent of the governed, as was also reported last month, we face an alarming crisis.

    Health care is no longer a debate about the merits of specific initiatives. Since the spectacle of Christmas dealmaking to ensure passage of the Senate bill, the issue, in voters' minds, has become less about health care than about the government and a political majority that will neither hear nor heed the will of the people.

    Voters are hardly enthralled with the GOP, but the Democrats are pursuing policies that are out of step with the way ordinary Americans think and feel about politics and government. Barring some change of approach, they will be punished severely at the polls.
    Once again, after watching the events of this week in the push to ram health care reform down our throats, I am speechless.

    How do you answer a mindset that says, "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it," as Pelosi said this week?
  • Mar 12, 2010, 08:46 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Once again, after watching the events of this week in the push to ram health care reform down our throats, I am speechless.

    How do you answer a mindset that says, "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it," as Pelosi said this week?

    Hello again, Steve:

    Once again, you prove my point about the Republican talking points. "Ram it down our throats" is a good one.

    Funny. You didn't say anything about RAMMING the Bush tax cuts down our throats, but the Republican dominated congress used the Same procedure.

    Now, I don't know what's IN the bill, because the bill hasn't been written yet. But, to try to fix something that is plainly broken isn't delusional. Pretending the status quo is just fine is what's delusional.

    excon
  • Mar 12, 2010, 09:10 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Steve:

    Once again, you prove my point about the Republican talking points. "Ram it down our throats" is a good one.

    Um, I was using that before it was any "talking point," it was an easily discernible reality.

    Quote:

    Funny. You didn't say anything about RAMMING the Bush tax cuts down our throats, but the Republican dominated congress used the Same procedure.
    Do you really want to compare a tax cut that's set to expire with this huge, permanent government power grab?

    Quote:

    Now, I don't know what's IN the bill, because the bill hasn't been written yet. But, to try to fix something that is plainly broken isn't delusional. Pretending the status quo is just fine is what's delusional.
    Did you read the column? Have you listened to us at all? Or are you, like these Dems, just wishing the facts would go away or pretending they don't exist? Everyone agrees there needs to be changes, pretending we don't is delusional. Blind faith in a bill is even more delusional.
  • Mar 12, 2010, 09:32 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Do you really want to compare a tax cut that's set to expire with this huge, permanent government power grab?Did you read the column? Have you listened to us at all? Or are you, like these Dems, just wishing the facts would go away or pretending they don't exist? Everyone agrees there needs to be changes, pretending we don't is delusional. Blind faith in a bill is even more delusional.

    Hello again, Steve:

    Yes, I read what Republicans say. I listen too. I just don't BELIEVE it. Why is that?? Because I'm actually rather intelligent, I can read, and I understand politics. You know what else I don't believe?? I don't believe that Republicans think changes need to be made to our health care. I haven't seen ANY indication of that. That would be NONE - ZIPPO - NADA. All I've seen is obstruction - absolute lockstep obstruction. I don't know where you think I've been. We've been talking about this for over a year. I've HEARD every one of you say countless times that our health care is the BEST IN THE WORLD - that EVERYBODY is NOW covered, and that insurance companies are your BEST FRIENDS. That doesn't sound like you think something is wrong.

    Please understand that I don't have "blind" faith in a bill that hasn't been written yet, or faith that Democrats can pass a good bill. So, my argument isn't in support of "the bill". The bill itself may be crap - probably is. At best it's insurance reform. But, it's NOT a permanent government power grab - not even close. That's another talking point.

    So, when you throw those talking points up around here, you're not going to grab my attention.

    excon
  • Mar 12, 2010, 09:53 AM
    tomder55

    Sorry ,the Dem talking point about the Bush tax cuts are intentionally deceptive.

    The 2001 reconcilliation act passed with 12 Democrat Senators voting for it.
    I'll gladly give up my tax cut if in exchange I don't have to pay for the Obama ruinous agenda.
  • Mar 12, 2010, 10:08 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Sorry ,the Dem talking point about the Bush tax cuts are intentionally deceptive. I don't have to pay for the Obama ruinous agenda.

    Hello again, tom:

    Saying this bill has a "ruinous" agenda is what's deceptive, and you're intentionally saying that.

    I agree, it won't help people much who already have insurance, but it'll be a big help to those who are not now insured. The problem is individuals who can't get employment-based coverage. And that market, in case you hadn't noticed, is a disaster — no coverage for people with pre-existing medical conditions, coverage dropped when you get sick, and huge premium increases in the middle of an economic crisis. It's this sector, plus the plight of Americans with no insurance at all, that reform aims to fix. What's wrong with that?

    Now, I know you have different information than I do, but the bill under consideration is going to CONTROL costs and REDUCE the deficit too.

    Sorry, tom. Looks like you're going to have to pay (if you make more than $200K) for Obamacare, just like I have to pay for Bush's TWO ruinous wars.

    excon
  • Mar 12, 2010, 10:14 AM
    speechlesstx
    To pretend it isn't a huge government power grab, and not a talking point, is also delusional.

    I'm also not going to do your work for you, I've said it more times than I can count that we need changes, you search for it. I just don't buy this idea that it's so broken we have to completely redo health care. It would be like amputating a leg for an ingrown toenail - overkill.
  • Mar 12, 2010, 10:28 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    To pretend it isn't a huge government power grab, and not a talking point, is also delusional. I just don't buy this idea that it's so broken we have to completely redo health care.

    Hello again, Steve:

    It's insurance reform. It's NOT a complete redo of health care. You're repeating TALKING POINTS. It REDOES NOTHING. It is anything BUT a huge government power grab. It's insurance reform. That's all. That's it. It's nothing more than that. The talking points are what's delusional. The words HUGE GOVERNMENT POWER GRAB, are Republican talking points.

    No matter how WRONG those points are, by repeatedly sticking to the message, as you do, you have demonstrated WHY the Democrats have LOST the talking point battle. You guys are good at that. The Democrats suck at it.

    But, that's ALL they lost. The bill they're fashioning without you, while it's not what I hoped it would be, might do something positive. In fact, it might even be enough to allow some congressman to KEEP their seats. You see, contrary to you, I believe the American people WANT change, and THIS change is what they voted for.

    I don't know how you think that means we're a center right country, but you do... THAT'S what's delusional.

    excon
  • Mar 12, 2010, 10:37 AM
    tomder55

    Obama has reached for a vast reordering of the economy without any votes from the Republicans and wrecking the seats of the blue dog Democrats .
    And amazingly the Dems like Pelosi and Reid think it is worth it.

    Why ? Because the ideology behind it trumps the politics. The nanny state lives on and it will be permanent. The statists win even if it costs them later in the polls.
  • Mar 12, 2010, 10:44 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    and wrecking the seats of the blue dog Democrats .
    And amazingly the Dems like Pelosi and Reid think it is worth it.

    Hello again, tom:

    Let me see. The Republican party discards its centrists and moves to the right, and that's good.. But, when the Democrats shed their centrists, that's bad. I understand...

    There ain't no centrists anyway. The parties have been moving away from the center for a long time. Let's get on with it. The center SUCKS!

    excon
  • Mar 12, 2010, 10:52 AM
    tomder55

    Reagan attracted the centrists without changing conservatism.

    They left and supported the Dems when the Republicans stopped acting like conservatives. Now they find they were sold a bill of goods in 2006 (as was predicted here.. reference what was called a 'trojan horse strategy ') .

    Yes ;the issue with centrists is that one cannot discern an identifiable philosophical base . They do however represent a sizable portion of the people.
  • Mar 12, 2010, 11:02 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    They left and supported the Demswhen the Republicans stopped acting like conservatives.

    Hello again, tom:

    When they (Lieberman, Nelson, Stupak, et all) stop acting like liberals and support the Republicans, the Dems are going to throw them to the curb too. What's different?

    excon
  • Mar 12, 2010, 11:05 AM
    speechlesstx

    Ex, facts are facts. Obamacare WILL create huge new - permanent - government bureaucracies, it will dictate what coverage you have, it will dictate what treatments you're allowed, it will ultimately put everyone on the 'public option.' For someone who has argued time and again that insurance already does such things it's curious you would use that as your argument.

    It's as simple as this, if the problem is the uninsured then let's take care of the uninsured. Leave the rest of us alone.
  • Mar 12, 2010, 03:30 PM
    Catsmine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post

    Now, I don't know what's IN the bill, because the bill hasn't been written yet.

    Quote:

    It's insurance reform. It's NOT a complete redo of health care. You're repeating TALKING POINTS. It REDOES NOTHING. It is anything BUT a huge government power grab. It's insurance reform. That's all. That's it. It's nothing more than that
    Did you find out what's in the bill in two hours, Ex? Or is this more Libprog "what I said before doesn't matter, it's what I'm saying now" rhetoric?
  • Mar 12, 2010, 03:36 PM
    cdad

    What would Reagan say about all this health care stuff??


    YouTube - Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine
  • Mar 12, 2010, 04:02 PM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Catsmine View Post
    Did you find out what's in the bill in two hours, Ex?

    Hello Cats:

    Yup. See above where it says I can read.

    excon
  • Mar 12, 2010, 04:50 PM
    Catsmine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello Cats:

    Yup. See above where it says I can read.

    excon

    Where can I read it?
  • Mar 13, 2010, 12:09 AM
    paraclete
    This appears to be such a weighty matter that the legislation cannot be passed without the president leaning on Congress and the Senate. Obama has delayed his visit to Australia and Indonesia because of the health care legislation, apparently it takes precedence over foreign policy. So much for keeping a dog and barking yourself
  • Mar 13, 2010, 04:59 AM
    tomder55

    Yes Clete ,the President needs to be there to sign whatever concoction and bast@rdization of the bill reaches his desk .

    This weekend the House is contemplating a blatantly unconstitutional remedy to break the impass. Effectively they may try to submit the Senate version of the bill to the President without actually voting on it themselves(a clear violation of article 7 sec 2).

    There will be immediate court challenges to this of course ;but the Dems will declare victory and go home to their constituents and tell them "well no....I did not actually vote for it ".

    Don't put your hopes up in the President doing anything useful in Australia . As he has demonstrated ,he is willing to damage our relationships with the English speak nations .
  • Mar 13, 2010, 05:04 AM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Yes Clete ,the President needs to be there to sign whatever concoction and bast@rdization of the bill reaches his desk .

    This weekend the House is contemplating a blatantly unconstitutional remedy to break the impass. Effectively they may try to submit the Senate version of the bill to the President without actually voting on it themselves(a clear violation of article 7 sec 2).

    There will be immediate court challenges to this of course ;but the Dems will declare victory and go home to their constituents and tell them "well no....I did not actually vote for it ".

    Don't put your hopes up in the President doing anything useful in Australia . As he has demonstrated ,he is willing to damage our relationships with the English speak nations .

    Give me a break, Tom, like it couldn't wait a day once it is passed. If he does something sneaky to get the bill passed we don't want him here, we have enough politicians already, what we want to hear from is statesmen
  • Mar 13, 2010, 06:40 AM
    tomder55

    That's not the half of it. Congress was held hostage in DC town this weekend under the lame excuse that they needed to pass an anti-algae bill.But the real reason is that Pelosi and Obama's henchman Rham Emanuel needed more time to twist arms of their caucus. They don't have the votes ;but they will resort to any brutish and unconstitutional means to get it done. The president's whole domestic agenda is at stake ;and yes,in his mind that trumps any international relations obligations .
  • Mar 13, 2010, 07:33 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    The president's whole domestic agenda is at stake ;and yes,in his mind that trumps any international relations obligations .

    Right, and if the Messiah loses this battle it would relegate him to the status of ordinary and that's unacceptable. This is the man whose goal goes far beyond any domestic agenda, he wants to remake the world.

    Quote:

    "We are the hope of the future," sayeth Obama. We can "remake this world as it should be." Believe in me and I shall redeem not just you but your country -- nay, we can become "a hymn that will heal this nation, repair this world, and make this time different than all the rest."
  • Mar 15, 2010, 07:05 AM
    speechlesstx
    It appears the most transparent, ethical Congress ever is for the first time in US history, about to pass a bill they haven't voted on. Yes, the Dems are going to "Slaughter" the constitution:

    Quote:

    It’s crunch time on health care. The Budget Committee will meet Monday to start marking up a shell of a Reconciliation Bill. The Rules Committee will then meet as early as Wednesday to hollow out whatever the Budget Committee passed and then insert a new bill from Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s (D-CA) office. The Majority is still planning to use the “Slaughter Rule” that would allow the House to pass the Senate health care bill without voting on it. Final votes are expected to stretch into the weekend.
    Say you what you will about Bush and Republicans, but you'd be hard pressed to come up with a more despicable, shameless, underhanded, slimy, unconstitutional act than what this Congress is planning.
  • Mar 15, 2010, 07:10 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Say you what you will about Bush and Republicans, but you'd be hard pressed to come up with a more despicable, shameless, underhanded, slimy, unconstitutional act than what this Congress is planning.

    Hello again, Steve:

    Boy, if they did it all legal like, THAT should piss you off. But, it should make you HAPPY that they're violating the Constitution. It'll make your job of repealing the law that much easier.

    By the way, I'm not hard pressed at all.

    Excib
  • Mar 19, 2010, 07:22 AM
    speechlesstx
    Ex, it will piss me off if it passes no matter the procedure to get there - this congress has absolute contempt for the wishes of the American people, their employers.

    This is not about providing health care for those without, it's all about the agenda. Tom showed that by Pelosi's comments. The administration revealed that last year when they suggested Dems pass anything so they could declare victory and move on. And Obama revealed it by telling the Hispanic caucus he needed this to save his presidency.

    “Win one for Barry.” Yeah, that's reason enough for the government to take over health care.
  • Mar 19, 2010, 07:54 AM
    excon

    Hello again, Steve:

    You're a victim of your own propaganda. This bill is NOT a government takeover (your favorite phrase), and it IS what the American people want, no matter how many times FOX news tells you they don't.

    Elections have consequences. Torture is one I had to put up with. Helping Americans with access to health care is yours. Bummer for you.

    excon
  • Mar 19, 2010, 08:23 AM
    tomder55

    Quote:

    It'll make your job of repealing the law that much easier.
    It will be impossible to repeal because of the veto . This has to be stopped now or by court challenge or it will become another permanent "entitlement " .

    I know that court challenges are being prepared to address the process of "pass and deem" .There are also State Att Generals being authorized to challenge it on 9th and 10th amendment issues . There will be challenges related to the mandate . I suspect there are some in SCOTUS who think the application of the 'commerce clause ' has become too broad and abusive and would be more than happy to rule to limit it.

    But I think this can be nipped in the bud still.
    ABC's last whip count had it 208 yes and 209 no with 14 undecided .216 is the magic number .

    Now that something resembling a reconciliation bill is public(and I have no intention of reading it) ,and the CBO gave a fuzzy math thumbs up ,I expect that Pelosi will manage to twist enough arms to get it through the House .

    Senate Republicans however are going over the bill and will find anything that violates the 'Byrd rule' about reconcilliation and will raise challenges(points of order) . They can stop it if anything in the language of the bill is not directly related to budgettary issues.

    Suffice it to say that POTUS expects this will not get done this weekend .If he did ,he would not have cancelled his trip to Australia and Indonesia until June.
  • Mar 19, 2010, 08:43 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    It will be impossible to repeal because of the veto . This has to be stopped now or by court challenge or it will become another permanent "entitlement " .

    Hello again, tom:

    Sorry, I don't understand... If it's SO unpopular, and SO illegal, certainly the Democrats will be swept out of office. Clearly, the Republican congress can repeal it, and President Palin can sign it.

    I agree with you, though. It WILL become another permanent entitlement, just like your entitlement to police and fire protection is.

    excon
  • Mar 19, 2010, 08:44 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    You're a victim of your own propaganda. This bill is NOT a government takeover (your favorite phrase), and it IS what the American people want, no matter how many times FOX news tells you they don't.

    I don't need Fox News propaganda, the Democrats have made my point all on their own. They've made their intentions clear. They know this legislation is not what Americans want. From Claire McCaskill in the article I linked to:

    Quote:

    “The first risk [of a health care defeat] is that he loses the reelect,” she said. “I think the risk to Congress is that his approval rating goes so low, he does not have enough heft to lift other important things we want to work on.. . So this is a gut check. He’s got so much to lose by continuing to push for something that’s not going to be immediately popular. It’s not going to be popular by November; it’s not going to be popular by November of 2012. It’ll be popular 10 years from now.”
    Americans' have made it clear their concern is for jobs, and Obama continues to push for something they assume will be popular "10 years from now" instead. Ten years from now another congress will be trying to fix what this congress screwed up, and the statist solution we'll be pressed with then will be single-payer government health care.

    Quote:

    Elections have consequences. Torture is one I had to put up with. Helping Americans with access to health care is yours. Bummer for you.
    I don't recall your being tortured, and contrary to your continued portrayal of me I'm all for Americans having health care, so let's address those without insurance. Both sides agree to that, so if that were the issue the Dems would have backed down long ago and worked to resolve that.
  • Mar 19, 2010, 10:02 AM
    tomder55

    Silly me . And here I thought my local village provided fire service through volunteers ;and that my village /township/county and state provided the police protection. Perhaps the Obots are planning on nationalizing those services also ?

    Of course that brings us to the philosphical question about health care being a "right" .

    But if I have the right to someone else's services then I also have a right to them whether I pay for them or not... and if that person also has a right to be paid for their services then the government is presuming that they can take money from someone else to pay for the services provided to me .

    True rights are not the rights the government can provide for me .Rights are instead things that if I exercise them will not diminish the rights of others .I can't impose my rights at the expense of someone else. I have a right to behavior .I do not have a right to rewards from other people.

    And if I have a right to government guaranteed health care then why do I not also have the right to consume someone else's food ,or live in a house paid for by someone else ? Or conversely why aren't my rights violated when I am compelled by the government to pay for someone else's "rights" ?
  • Mar 20, 2010, 06:01 AM
    tomder55

    Clete

    Just to update... the President needed to postpone his very important junket to Australia and Indonesia again .

    Mark Stein notes that perhaps the President can just "deem " that he made the trip because
    "passage of the health insurance reform is of paramount importance." Whereas Australia isn't.

    But ,being a friend of the US under the Obots is not exactly the best seat on the bus these days. In fact ;our best friends find themselves under the bus.

    So as Stein says ,perhaps it would be better if the President pared back to a minimum— a quick refueling stop in Canberra, with a speech to Parliament and a grip'n'greet with the Governor-General and Prime Minister. Maybe the administration could simply "deem" the visit to have occurred, photoshop a souvenir snapshot and stick it in the mail to their eminences.
    Investors.com - What Democrats Have 'Deemed': Remorseless, Ever-Faster Decline
  • Mar 20, 2010, 06:56 AM
    speechlesstx
    Just think of all the opportunities "Demon pass" opens up for the Dems. They can deem the economy rescued, deem unemployment solved, deem the planet healed and deem the war in Afghanistan won for starters. Bush's "mission accomplished" was so yesterday.

    P.S. They'll start with deeming the "public option" into law.
  • Mar 20, 2010, 07:13 AM
    tomder55

    And Sanders believes him ? Interesting ;I'm beginning to see the argument being floated that once the House "deems " the Senate bill passed ,it will be signed within minutes by the President as the law of the land... and any other effort at reconilliation or amendment will be at best half hearted as the President and Pelosi moves on to other pressing statists agendas .
  • Mar 20, 2010, 07:21 AM
    excon

    Hello Snivelers:

    Wassa matta? You going to lose?? I deem it so.

    excon
  • Mar 20, 2010, 07:45 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello Snivelers:

    Wassa matta?? You gonna lose???? I deem it so.

    If the Dems succeed in passing this legislation - especially with all their tricks, deals, fiscal sleight of hand and outright lies - America loses. We've made it clear that reform is needed, but not this way.
  • Mar 20, 2010, 07:52 AM
    excon

    Hello again, Steve:

    Like I said before, if "deem and pass" is illegal, that's the BEST thing for you guys AND the country, no? But, if it's a political ploy, that the right wing itself has used countless times (and it has), and is perfectly LEGAL, then you're just sniveling...

    I still don't know what you have against 35 million people getting insurance. I don't know what's wrong with ENDING the insurance company's ability to declare your illness to be a pre-existing condition... I don't know what's wrong with closing the doughnut hole. I also don't know what's wrong with REDUCING the deficit...

    These are the things the bill will do. It will NOT kill Grandma. Like I said earlier, you are a victim of your own propaganda. You ought to get out more.

    excon
  • Mar 20, 2010, 08:29 AM
    speechlesstx
    And you are a propagator of your own propaganda, I've said repeatedly that I'm all for everyone having health care. Everyone knows "deem and pass" has been used before but never for anything so massive in scope. I've been honest and all for making changes, but you really should listen to yourself before mentioning propaganda.
  • Mar 20, 2010, 08:39 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Everyone knows "deem and pass" has been used before but never for anything so massive in scope.

    Hello again, Steve:

    Is there a law or a rule that says "deem and pass" cannot be used for "massive" legislation? NO?? Then it's LEGAL. It's not almost legal. It's not kind of legal. It's not close to being legal. It's absolutely 100% LEGAL! Of course, you call it a trick. I'll bet the Dems called it a trick when YOU used it.

    excon
  • Mar 20, 2010, 08:41 AM
    tomder55

    Well I guess it will be up to SCOTUS to decide. My guess is that they will hold the Presentment Clause of the Constitution to be the law of the land and not the whims of Madame Mimi.
    Quote:

    But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House
    Article 1 Sec 7 clauses 2 and 3

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