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  • May 27, 2009, 08:18 AM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    Because your view does not give a woman a say so over her own body and Obama's does. He is not dictating what you are to do. He leaves it up to you. It's called a choice.

    It is one of those irreconcilable differences. I don't think murder is a choice we can make.

    Quote:

    If it was HER body we're talking about here, I would agree with you... But, it ain't. It's her kid, and he's brainwashed with his mothers garbage.
    And in the case of abortion the mother is also making a "choice" if her child lives or dies... at least in this case the child has a chance.
  • May 27, 2009, 08:20 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    What's stopping you from being a foster parent or adopting children then?

    Caring for my wife and her health problems, helping support my AIDS-stricken daughter, my hands have been full and the expense is more than I can presently manage. And the hoops you have to jump through to adopt are ridiculous. I do what I can in other ways - but I WANT to adopt.
  • May 27, 2009, 08:22 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Caring for my wife and her health problems, helping support my AIDS-stricken daughter, my hands have been full and the expense is more than I can presently manage. And the hoops you have to jump through to adopt are ridiculous. I do what I can in other ways - but I WANT to adopt.

    Ah, I see. The sentiment is there but you can't do it. Makes it easy to offer when you can't do it.
  • May 27, 2009, 08:33 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Steve:

    If it was HER body we're talking about here, I would agree with you... But, it ain't. It's her kid, and he's brainwashed with his mothers garbage.

    excon

    I know, a fetus ain't really a kid so it has no rights. Right?
  • May 27, 2009, 08:39 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Ah, I see. The sentiment is there but you can't do it. Makes it easy to offer when you can't do it.

    Does being a jerk just come natural to you?
  • May 27, 2009, 08:40 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    I know, a fetus ain't really a kid so it has no rights. Right?

    Hello again, Steve:

    Not legally, no. But, according to your thinking, the mother shouldn't have rights either.

    ME? I'm conflicted. Nowhere in the law am I conflicted, except where the rights of the unborn are irretrievably tied to the rights of the mother.

    You see a winner and a loser. I only see two losers.

    excon
  • May 27, 2009, 08:41 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Does being a jerk just come natural to you?

    More personal attacks eh?
  • May 27, 2009, 08:46 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    More personal attacks eh?

    What do you mean more? I just asked a question.

    You seem to think a pregnant mother deserves compassion but not a husband and father caring for a sick wife and daughter. You do the math.
  • May 27, 2009, 08:47 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Steve:

    Not legally, no. But, according to your thinking, the mother shouldn't have rights either.

    ME? I'm conflicted. Nowhere in the law am I conflicted, except where the rights of the unborn are irretrievably tied to the rights of the mother.

    You see a winner and a loser. I only see two losers.

    excon

    Glass half full or half empty, I don't see what precludes the possibility of two winners.
  • May 27, 2009, 08:51 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    What do you mean more? I just asked a question.

    Wow, in your delusion you think people buy that line.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    You seem to think a pregnant mother deserves compassion but not a husband and father caring for a sick wife and daughter. You do the math.

    It matters not what you are doing with your time, the fact is that you offered to do something (take a baby that a mother didn't want) to make yourself and your issue look oh so dignified then come back and say that you can't do it.
  • May 27, 2009, 09:23 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Wow, in your delusion you think people buy that line.

    Now who's doing the attacking?

    Quote:

    It matters not what you are doing with your time,
    It matters to me and my family. I think my wife and daughter would take great exception to that comment (and probably ask the same question I did). I also said I help in other ways which matters very much to some very special children.

    Quote:

    the fact is that you offered to do something (take a baby that a mother didn't want) to make yourself and your issue look oh so dignified then come back and say that you can't do it.
    What a load of nonsense. I've seen what abortion has done to my daughter. She, along with myself wish we could hold that child more than you can imagine. I've also seen what abortion has done to close friends. If there's anything here that should be dignified it's the child that didn't have a chance and the would-be mother that regrets forever the decision to abort. There is no turning back from that, NK. It's done, the child is lost, never had a chance, and nothing you or anyone else says will intimidate me into remaining silent.
  • May 27, 2009, 10:11 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Glass half full or half empty, I don't see what precludes the possibility of two winners.

    Hello again, Steve:

    The possibility you hope for only exists in your happy place. In the real world, if a woman is forced to have a baby she doesn't want, they're BOTH victims.

    Plus, in MY world, YOU folks, the ones from the happy place world, would IMPRISON women who disagreed with you. That doesn't look too happy in my book. Nahh. I looks real mean.

    excon
  • May 27, 2009, 10:35 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Plus, in MY world, YOU folks, the ones from the happy place world, would IMPRISON women who disagreed with you. That doesn't look too happy in my book. Nahh. I looks real mean.

    excon

    Oh ex, you've got to be kidding me. What ever gave you that impression?
  • May 27, 2009, 10:59 AM
    galveston

    Maybe we should coin a new phrase:

    "Compassionate murder"

    Would that be with or without anesthetic?
  • May 27, 2009, 11:04 AM
    cozyk
    [QUO5
    Quote:

    ;1760260]It is one TE=tomder5of those irreconcilable differences. I don't think murder is a choice we can make.
    And I think to call it murder is ridiculous. I think the reason you use that term is just for shock value to further your cause.
    And even if YOU think it is murder, YOU don't have to do it. But you are trying to force your OPINION that it is murder on others when you know nothing about their circumstance.
  • May 27, 2009, 11:07 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Oh ex, you've got to be kidding me. What ever gave you that impression?

    Hello again, Steve:

    If you make abortion illegal and somebody gets one, what are you going to do? Tell them they shouldn't do that?? How are you going to enforce it?? You're going to put 'em in jail, that's what you're going to do. You can't fool me with all your nicey nice talk.

    excon
  • May 27, 2009, 11:19 AM
    cozyk
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Caring for my wife and her health problems, helping support my AIDS-stricken daughter, my hands have been full and the expense is more than I can presently manage. And the hoops you have to jump through to adopt are ridiculous. I do what I can in other ways - but I WANT to adopt.

    Now, imagine that you are a woman, you are caring for your ailing spouse, you have an AIDS stricken daughter, your hands are full and the expense of another child is more than you could manage. And the hoops any one would have to jump through to adopt your baby were ridiculous. Now, you find yourself pregnant in spite of being careful. (Note, I don't consider, nor do most people consider abortion just another form of birth control. Personal responsibility is always called for in everything). So, you are pregnant. EARLY in the pregnancy. There is no way this bundle of cells can survive outside your body. What is your next step?


    Maybe your next step would be to continue with the pregnancy, give the baby up, put it in foster care until you are able to "manage" it, or keep it and give it less care than you should because you have already realized that you have more than you can manage.

    What are you going to do?
  • May 27, 2009, 11:40 AM
    cozyk
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    I know, a fetus ain't really a kid so it has no rights. Right?

    You show me a fetus that is a walking, talking, thinking, breathing, individual human being and then we will talk about it's rights.

    In the mean time, we have a mother that is a walking, talking, thinking, breathing, individual and technically a bundle of cells multiplying and splitting within her body.

    So like you said, it's not "really a kid" as you so delicately put it. It's not "really a kid" or any other kind of person until it is able to survive outside the moms body. That is when the "rights" begin if you want to break it down to rights.
  • May 27, 2009, 12:31 PM
    cozyk

    Speech, It sounds like you have certainly had your fair share of heartache. Your wife is ill, your daughter is ill, and you all apparently are regretting her choice to have an abortion. Am I coming to the right conclusion? I'm very sorry that you and your family are suffering.

    I don't claim to believe that some people have abortions and regret it. In fact I assume that there is a percentage that do regret it. I also assume that there is a percentage that are thankful and relieved everyday that they were able to have that abortion. This is such a deeply personal choice that it is no ones business other than the mother and father to be.

    For a government to dictate that a pregnancy be carried to full term, is the same thing as if a government dictated that every pregnancy end before full term. If you give them power over one, what's to keep them from having power over the other. It simply is not their place. I thought people wanted LESS government involvement in their personal life. Let each one live with their OWN choice, not with the governments choice.
  • May 27, 2009, 12:33 PM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cozyk View Post
    Now, imagine that you are a woman, you are caring for your ailing spouse, you have an AIDS stricken daughter, your hands are full and the expense of another child is more than you could manage. And the hoops any one would have to jump through to adopt your baby were ridiculous. Now, you find yourself pregnant in spite of being careful. (Note, I don't consider, nor do most people consider abortion just another form of birth control. Personal responsibility is always called for in everything). So, you are pregnant. EARLY in the pregnancy. There is no way this bundle of cells can survive outside your body. What is your next step?

    Maybe your next step would be to continue with the pregnancy, give the baby up, put it in foster care until you are able to "manage" it, or keep it and give it less care than you should because you have already realized that you have more than you can manage.

    What are you going to do?

    Go to a crisis pregnancy center, get all the help I can find, do whatever it took to make sure the child had a chance, because in my world I could never cheapen a child's life down to "a bundle of cells."

    Look, it's not that I don't have empathy for the woman in that situation, I do, and I would have done everything I could to help my daughter through her pregnancy if I would have known. If Planned Parenthood and NARAL spent half the energy and resources to encourage and assist that woman as they do on abortions and comprehensive sex education for kids I believe more women would choose life.
  • May 27, 2009, 12:45 PM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cozyk View Post
    You show me a fetus that is a walking, talking, thinking, breathing, individual human being and then we will talk about it's rights.

    In the mean time, we have a mother that is a walking, talking, thinking, breathing, individual and technically a bundle of cells multiplying and splitting within her body.

    I could show you a fetus with fingers, toes and a beating heart but it wouldn't matter. You're convinced that life inside is just "a bundle of cells."

    Quote:

    So like you said, it's not "really a kid" as you so delicately put it. It's not "really a kid" or any other kind of person until it is able to survive outside the moms body. That is when the "rights" begin if you want to break it down to rights.
    Like I said before, I think that's a very selfish attitude. I believe it's a child and I believe you'd have to admit that it's intended destiny is to become someone's child, not someone's medical waste.
  • May 27, 2009, 01:04 PM
    tomder55
    I am calling it as I see it. If I was playing the shock card I'd say that no one has a right to snuff a baby ,or off a baby or perform a coup de grace on a baby . Actually I am not even playing the shock card when I call it genocide and infanticide.
  • May 27, 2009, 01:11 PM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    I am calling it as I see it. If I was playing the shock card I'd say that no one has a right to snuff a baby ,or off a baby or perform a coup de grace on a baby . Actually I am not even playing the shock card when I call it genocide and infanticide.

    So why aren't the women being arrested?
  • May 27, 2009, 02:24 PM
    speechlesstx
    How timely...

    Quote:

    Harsanyi: Abortion debate changing

    By David Harsanyi
    Posted: 05/27/2009 01:00:00 AM MDT

    As an atheist and a secular kind of guy, I practice moral relativism regularly. Still, I've always struggled mightily with the ethics and politics of abortion. Apparently, I'm not alone.

    A new Gallup poll claims that for the first time since 1995, when the question was first asked by the organization, most Americans consider themselves to be "pro-life" rather than "pro-choice."

    The straightforward question asked of participants was this: "With respect to the abortion issue, would you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life?" Fifty-one percent responded that they were pro-life and 42 percent said they were pro-choice. These percentages are the reverse found in the same poll in 2006.

    What happened? Is it possible that the nation has undergone a gigantic attitudinal shift on the fundamental issue of abortion in only three years' time? Logically, it seems that the entire framing of the debate has become antiquated and far too simplistic for the questions we face. Anecdotally, I would say it's possible.

    I know I've changed my views.

    After a life of being pro-choice, I began to seriously ponder the question. I oppose the death penalty because there is a slim chance that an innocent person might be executed and I don't believe the state should have the authority to take a citizen's life. So don't I owe an nascent human life at least the same deference? Just in case?

    You may not consider a fetus a "human life" in early pregnancy, though it has its own DNA and medical science continues to find ways to keep the fetus viable outside the womb earlier and earlier.

    But it's difficult to understand how those who harp about the importance of "science" in public policy can draw an arbitrary timeline in the pregnancy, defining when human life is worth saving and when it can be terminated.

    The more I thought about it, the creepier the issue got.


    Newsweek, for instance, recently reported that 90 percent of women whose fetuses test positive for Down syndrome choose an abortion. Another survey showed only a small percentage of mothers even used the test. So what happens when 90 percent of parents test their fetuses? Does it mean the end of the disease or are we stepping perilously close to eugenics?

    What about future DNA tests that can detect any "defects" in a fetus? What happens when we can use abortion to weed out the blind, mentally ill, the ugly, or any other any "undesirable" human being?

    Recently, Sweden's National Board of Health and Welfare ruled that women are permitted to abort their children based on the sex of the fetus. In the United States, a woman can have an abortion for nearly any reason she chooses. In fact, a health exemption for the mother allows abortions to be performed virtually on demand.

    If you oppose selective abortions, but not abortion overall, I wonder why? How is terminating the fetus because it's the wrong sex any worse than terminating the fetus for convenience's sake? The fate of the fetus does not change, only the reasoning for its extinction does.

    Now, I happen to believe (as the civil libertarian and pro-life activist Nat Hentoff once noted) that the right to life and liberty is the foundation of a moral society. Then again, I also believe a government ban on abortion would only criminalize the procedure and do little to mitigate the amount of abortions.

    Obviously, these are a few of the complex and uncomfortable issues to ponder. So maybe this poll tells us that the dynamics of the abortion debate are about to change, that Americans are getting past the politics and into the morality of the issue.

    Then again, it's entirely possible that I'm just projecting.
    Honesty in the debate, how refreshing.
  • May 27, 2009, 03:32 PM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Honesty in the debate, how refreshing.

    He's a right-winger like you. That's not refreshing, that's you agreeing with you. Kind of like you and tom here.
  • May 27, 2009, 03:42 PM
    cozyk

    Abortion... It's not for Speech
    It's not for Tom
    It's not for David Harsanya
    And it's not even for me with 99% of scenarios I can imagine.


    BUT, who are we to say it's not for someone else. Both times I was pregnant, I started calling it "my baby" from the beginning. That is how I FELT about my pregnancies. Not everyone feels the same and you are trying to force your feelings down someone else's throat.

    I referred to the fetus as cells earlier because technically and scientifically that is what it is. It has no thoughts, feelings, concepts, awareness, or fears. It just exist. It lives off your body like any other growth in your body.

    What gives it an identity is what we project on to it. I gave my children an identity when they were no larger that the tip of a needle but that was ME and MY emotional connection. It had nothing to do with them or what they consented to.

    I had a friend whose mom got pregnant with her when she was 16. The mom considered abortion, but ended up not aborting and married the guy. This was 1959, so it wasn't that people didn't get abortions, they just got unsafe, unregulated, unclean, abortions. Sometimes it worked, sometimes they were butchered and rendered sterile, and sometimes they even died.

    My friend said to me one day. " I'm glad she did not get an abortion because I wouldn't be here. " BUT, I looked at it this way. If you were never born, then you never had the consciousness to know you were never born. So how could "you" miss it when you never knew you were a "you".

    It's not like you are out there , floating around the heavens saying, dog gone it, I was supposed to be living down there in that total chaos called earth. It's more like a piece of paper has no idea that it is a piece of paper. They have an equal amount of awareness.

    Well, let me finish my story of my friend, Renae. Her Mom dropped out of high school. They got married. Eventually had another daughter 3 years later. Mom and Dad were never happy because they felt forced to be together. They resented Renae, because she was the cause of this train wreck. (in their eyes) Mom ended up having an affair. While she was out late with her boyfriend, her husband dropped dead in their kitchen of a heart attack. Mom came home and found him on the floor. He was to turn 50 in 2 more days. Mean while, he had been seeing other women too. Fifteen years later, Mom dies of cancer from smoking, tanning, and basically partying too hard as she was trying to make up for her youth that she missed. Sadly, they were never really happy since they married to have their baby, my friend Renae. Today, Renae has one living family member left. Her sister Dedi. Renae and Dedi haven't spoken since their mom died about 7 years ago. Some sort of spat over their moms estate. Yes, it turned out really well for everyone involved didn't it? Everyone is miserable.

    How do I know all this. We grew up together. Renae and I were best friends and our mothers were best friends. What my mom did not tell me, Renae did.

    Speech, did you daughter have a "safe" above board abortion? Or did she have to go to some butcher that would do it without any regulations?
  • May 27, 2009, 04:07 PM
    Skell

    Steve,

    Can I ask does your belief system (religion and subsequently on abortion) stem from the situation with your daughter? Or did you hold these beliefs prior to her illness and abortion?
  • May 27, 2009, 04:48 PM
    galveston

    It is a medical fact that babies respond to stimuli long before birth.

    It is also true that for several months to maybe 2 years, they don't walk, talk, or reason.

    Shall we then decide that if they don't talk or walk, we can kill them??
  • May 27, 2009, 04:56 PM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by galveston View Post
    It is also true that for several months to maybe 2 years, they don't walk, talk, or reason.

    Thus is incorrect of course.
  • May 27, 2009, 05:03 PM
    galveston
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Thus is incorrect of course.

    Baloney! We raised 5 and not one of them walked before 12 months. And they sure weren't talking at 6 months.
  • May 27, 2009, 05:21 PM
    Dare81

    Every year some 45 million pregnancies, out of a total of 175 million, end in abortion. Nearly half of those abortions (20 million) are medically unsafe, resulting in the deaths of nearly 80,000 women a year and a much larger number suffering infection, injury, and trauma. Thus the legality of abortion and the availability of medically safe abortion are public health issues. Criminalizing abortion does not save babies; it kills mothers.
  • May 27, 2009, 05:23 PM
    Dare81
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    I could show you a fetus with fingers, toes and a beating heart but it wouldn't matter. You're convinced that life inside is just "a bundle of cells."



    Like I said before, I think that's a very selfish attitude. I believe it's a child and I believe you'd have to admit that it's intended destiny is to become someone's child, not someone's medical waste.

    The concept of destiny is one asscoiated with God.If God wanted the baby to be somone's child then he can stop him from becoming medical waste.Let God worry about the child's destiny, you can just worry about yourself for now
  • May 27, 2009, 06:30 PM
    cozyk
    Quote:

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by galveston View Post
    It is a medical fact that babies respond to stimuli long before birth.

    So does your knee cap.It's called reflexes. So does a chicken with his head cut off. It's called involuntary muscle.

    Quote:

    It is also true that for several months to maybe 2 years, they don't walk, talk, or reason.

    Shall we then decide that if they don't talk or walk, we can kill them??

    Your argument is so asinine that it doesn't even deserve a counter argument. You put things out there that not one person in the universe would agree to. Kill 2 year olds, Ridiculous. Is it because you can't come up with any thing better?
  • May 27, 2009, 06:37 PM
    inthebox
    How many times you been pregnant Tom?[/QUOTE]

    I know we were all once fetuses, we had life though not yet born.
    It is only by the grace of being born and not aborted that there is a "Choice" to then decide between life and death.




    G&P
  • May 27, 2009, 06:54 PM
    inthebox
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cozyk View Post

    I referred to the fetus as cells earlier because technically and scientifically that is what it is. It has no thoughts, feelings, concepts, awareness, or fears. It just exist. It lives off of your body like any other growth in your body.

    So a fetus is the equivalent of cancer?

    That is the ultimate in relativism.



    G&P
  • May 27, 2009, 08:04 PM
    cozyk
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox View Post
    So a fetus is the equivalent of cancer?

    That is the ultimate in relativism.



    G&P

    Out of everything that I had to say, you pull out this one line and try to make something of it. Unbelievable. Get back to me when you have something of relevance to add.
  • May 27, 2009, 08:09 PM
    inthebox

    Your words -- Some don't matter? Or when you actually look at what you are saying, and its implications, it is to harsh to admit you actually wrote it?


    Oh, by the way. I have adopted and am raising 3 kids.
    Anyone who has been through the process knows it takes a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of emotion, a lot of legal know how.




    G&P
  • May 28, 2009, 05:59 AM
    cozyk
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    why is that relevant ? Are you saying that because I can't experience pregnancy that
    Quote:

    I am therefore disqualified to have an opinion ?
    If that is true then where is the legitimacy to Obama's opinions on pregnancy ?

    That's the whole point. You do have an opinion, I have an opinion, Obama has an opinion. Pro choice says you are entitled to it. Pro-life says you are not. With pro-life, whatever
    Your opinion, belief, soul searching result is, it's taken away from you.

    How is that so hard to understand?
  • May 28, 2009, 06:14 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    He's a right-winger like you. That's not refreshing, that's you agreeing with you. Kinda like you and tom here.

    How many right-wingers like me and tom are "an atheist and a secular kinda guy" that practices "moral relativism regularly?" Maybe the Canadian health care system has something to help you with those jerking knees.
  • May 28, 2009, 06:17 AM
    tomder55

    Yes I do think that murder should not be a choice .

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