Ask Me Help Desk - So far Obama is passing this test .

The pirates were aged 17 to 19 and were amateurs like I said much earlier in this discussion. This was noted by Mr. Gates. My friend did say they looked quite young to him and did not give the proper come back calls in answer to his hailing of them. My cargo ship owner friend spent sometime in Somalia a few years back and understands their customs. The entire country of Somalia is run by different clans as there is no government. The US missed it's chance many years ago to properly negotiate with the clans when it did not take the time to understand the country's customs, etc. and came off as arrogant to these people. The Somalis are highly trained in warfare. Trained by different nations in warfare. They refer to the US as practically amateurs compared to their training in certain things. Also, my friend noted that when he went through this particular area a lot of vessels were anchored out just rusting away.

And yes, the Somalis are very upset at the outcome and have vowed revenge upon the US. I pity any US flag bearing ship going through their waters in the near future as these people do not play.

And no, I don't have to read the newspapers or watch TV to know what is really going on Tom. Sorry to disappoint you.

Well then lets try the captured pirate as a juvenile (even though I think the old British style punishment is better suited ).

In many parts of Africa boys are recruited into the paramilitaries. That does not make them amateurs since you admit to the level of training they undergo. Perhaps you think they are the voluntary Somali coast guard ?
http://dougpowers.com/2009/04/15/al-...tary-nut-case/

Water canons discharging boiler water should do the trick if they dare approach a US vessel again . But I still think their base of operation needs to be hit a few times to drive home the message.
Yes ,we blew it in Somalia because we left with out tails between our legs the first time the enemy drew blood.

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/C...0413075339.jpg

You knew some on the left had to sympathize with the misunderstood pirates. According to this Somali whose column Huffpo was only glad to reprint, the pirates are just ecological warriors heading off an environmental disaster... "one man's pirate is another man's coast guard." Kos and DU agree.

I suggest to those on the left that so sympathize with these pirates, to walk the walk, and go to Somalia and hang out and listen to the grievances of these pirates in person rather than from behind some computer.

G&P

Iraq is almost over. Lets bomb Somalia... That'll take care of the pirates once and for all.

That's the logic usually used isn't it?? Somalia is harbouring terrorsts. They must be part of the axis of evil. Time to die Somalians..

I'm wondering how they are still finding American sailors willing to serve on ships passing this area.

If I were one of them, I think I would smuggle a 12 gauge shotgun on board, at least.

Skell let's negotiate with the pirates ;find out what their greviences are... then maybe we can have 6 party talks with them to see if they can mend their ways. Or perhaps we should pay them tribute for daring to sail in internationally recognized waters to conduct commerce.

It is becoming known that maybe Obama didn't do so well on this test after all. According to the report I saw, there were days of conferring between Obama and some 15 different agencies with no definite plan.

Obama had said that he wanted a "peaceful" solution to the hostage situation, unless the life of the hostage was in "imminent" danger.

When the man in charge on the scene saw the rifle pointed at the hostage's back, he relied on the "imminent" aspect and ordered the Seals to take the pirates out.

Of course, Obama took most of the credit.

Yes . I have a time line but I did not post it because all I have is the word of a former spec ops officer who now blogs.

But since you bring it up :

1. BHO (Obama) wouldn't authorize the DEVGRU/NSWC SEAL teams to the scene for 36 hours going against OSC (on scene commander) recommendation.

2. Once they arrived, BHO imposed restrictions on their ROE that they couldn't do anything unless the hostage's life was in "imminent" danger

3. The first time the hostage jumped, the SEALS had the pirates all sighted in, but could not fire due to ROE restriction

4. When the navy RIB came under fire as it approached with supplies, no fire was returned due to ROE restrictions. As the pirates were shooting at the RIB, they were exposed and the SEALS had them all dialed in.

5. BHO specifically denied two rescue plans developed by the Bainbridge CPN and SEAL teams

6. Bainbridge CPN and SEAL team CDR finally decide they have the OpArea and OSC authority to solely determine risk to hostage. 4 hours later, 3 dead pirates

7. BHO immediately claims credit for his "daring and decisive" behaviour.

For more :

http://jeffemanuel.net/2009/04/the-s...-claim-credit/

I try to wait for further confirmation from multiple sources before posting .Not surprised that the MSM has zipped it.

Oh OK. Lets go on Gal's unsourced report and tom's former spec. op officer.

You guys sound a lot like Cheney. :)

http://mail.google.com/mail/?attid=0...0d5c9d482f0119

Hello again:

The reason the right rattles sabres is because it's stocked with chickenhawks... A chickenhawk is a right winger who talks like a hawk, but upon closer examination, is a chicken.

Cheney never served a day in the military. Reagan didn't either. John Wayne - nahhh. The Limp one? Are you kidding? Hannity?? Nope. Gingrich? Nope. The dufus? He ran away.

So under every right wing screamer, is a chicken. Do you know why right wingers say that torture works?? Because they know it would work on THEM. They have no concept of what makes up a true warrior.

Therefore, the right will NEVER bow to the inherent strength of the left.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again:

The reason the right rattles sabres is because it's stocked with chickenhawks... A chickenhawk is a right winger who talks like a hawk, but upon closer examination, is a chicken.

Cheney never served a day in the military. Reagan didn't either. John Wayne - nahhh. The Limp one? Are you kidding? Hannity?? Nope. Gingrich? Nope. The dufus? He ran away.

First of all, John Wayne tried to volunteer, but he was rejected on a 4-F, and was pissed as heck about it. He wanted to go.

Reagan DID serve in the military. His service was in the Army Reserve from 1935-1941 as a cavalry officer, and in the Air Corp from 1941-1945 making training and educational films. He sereved for 10 years. His VP, former President George H.W. Bush served as well, being the youngest Naval Aviator at the age of 18, serving from 1943-1945, and earning the Distinguished Flying Cross, an Air Medal, and Presidential Unit Citation. I believe he also got a Purple Heart after being shot down over the Pacific.

Bush Jr. served in the TX National Guard. Like it or not, he served. You may not like HOW he served, but he served his time.

Then there's prominent "chickenhawks" like Senators Robert Bennett, Thad Cochran, Larry Craig, Michael Enzi, Chuck Hagle, John McCain, James Inhofe, Johnny Isakson, Richard Lugar, Pat Roberts, Arlan Specter, Ted Stevens, Craig Thomas, Jeff Sessions, Lindsey Graham, John Warner, and Congressmen Mike Conway, Terry Everett, Walter Jones, Joe Wilson, Duncan Hunter, Geoff Davis, John Kline, Tod Akin, Spencer Bachus, J.G. Barrett, Michael Bilirakis, John Boehner, Henry Brown, Vern Buchanan, Dan Burton, Steve Buyer, Howard Coble, Mike Conway, Thomas Davis, Nathan Deal, John Duncan, Terry Everett, Rodney Frelinghuysen, Wayne Gilchrest, Louie Gohmert, Virgil Goode, Ralph Hall, Doc Hastings, David Hobson, Darrel Issa, Sam Johnson, Walter Jones, Peter King, Mark Kirk, Joseph Knollenberg, Ron Lewis, John Linder, Gary Miller, Steve Pearce, John Peterson, Joseph Pitts, Ted Poe, Jim Ramstad, Ralph Regula, Thomas Reynolds, Michael Rogers, Harold Rogers, John Shimkus, Cliff Stearns, Dave Weldon, Ed Whitfield, Roger Wicker, Heather Wilson, Frank Wolf. Then there's former members of Bush's cabinet, Alberto Gonzalez and Jim Nicholson.

Incidentally, Supreme Court Justices Sam Alito, John Stevens and Anthony Kennedy all served as well.

I don't see any "chickenhawks" among them.

This is not to say that there aren't any Dems who served honorably. There are quite a few, but I'm fairly sure that you weren't referring to them as "right-wing chickenhawks".

Quote:

So under every right wing screamer, is a chicken. Do you know why right wingers say that torture works?? Because they know it would work on THEM. They have no concept of what makes up a true warrior.

Therefore, the right will NEVER bow to the inherent strength of the left.

Excon

Seems to me that you have run out of arguments. You no loger have the ability to argue based on facts... the facts of whether these techniques are actually torture, the facts of whether these techniques worked or not, the facts surrounding the treatment of unlawful combatants... because the facts all bear out our claim. Even Obama's own NIA agrees with that fact. That is why Obama released memos regarding the legality of turture, but has suppressed the memos on their efficacy, which has been proven. The facts do not favor your position, excon.

So instead you have resorted to name-calling. And even that is turning out to be untrue, since many of those who support our position on the Republican side are NOT "chickenhawks" as you define the term, but rather have military experience of varying degrees.

I would further argue that at least one of the "right wing chickenhawks" on this board has more combat experience than any ten of us combined, that person having been a Navy SEAL. Furthermore, that same person is more qualified to comment on whether these are acts of torture or not, because he went through the SERE training upon which these interrogation techniques were based, and has more direct knowledge of it than anyone else here.

And I have served in the Israeli military. Not with any particular distinction, and not with any combat experience. But I don't think I qualify as a "chickenhawk" by your definition.

In any case, based on the facts, you are still wrong.

Elliot

Hello again, El:

Pssst. This ain't the torture thread. This is the Obama is a tough cookie thread. And, tough he is!

excon

No, the SEALS who took charge are tough cookies. Obama is a guy who took credit for other people's work. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not evidence that he's "tough".

Elliot

Hello again, El:

Don't judge him on what he says. Judge him on what he does...

Hmmm, that sounds familiar...

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

Don't judge him on what he says. Judge him on what he does....

Hmmm, that sounds familiar...

excon

That's exactly what I'm doing. What he did was take credit for the actions of others.

I just had another thought.

When that phone rings at 2:00 AM will it take Obama four days to make a decision?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

That's exactly what I'm doing. What he did was take credit for the actions of others.

So stop giving Bush the credit for his 'successful' wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
That argument is so weak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

No, the SEALS who took charge are tough cookies. Obama is a guy who took credit for other people's work.

How do you figure?

Navy Credited With Bold Rescue of U.S. Captain Held by Somali Pirates - Presidential Politics | Political News - FOXNews.com

[QUOTE=ETWolverine;1688909]First of all, John Wayne tried to volunteer, but he was rejected on a 4-F, and was pissed as heck about it. He wanted to go.[QUOTE=ETWolverine;1688909]

Absolutely false!

Wayne was never 4F. He requested and received a deferment because of his marital and family status as sole support. Many other Hollywood types were in the same position but that didn't stop them from serving. He claimed later that he intended to join but he "never got around to it". John Ford harassed him for 3 years to get his butt in gear, but Wayne never did. When, toward war's end, he finally was drafted, Republic Pictures wangled another deferment for him. Wayne did not lift a finger to protest, which he could have done, and refuse the deferment.

His super patriotism in peacetime, according to his wife, was motivated by guilt for not having been a part of the big event of his generation.

Maybe Obama didn't pass this test? David Frum has some interesting thoughts on this being related to the punishment of 3 Navy SEALs for giving a prisoner a bloody lip:

Quote:

Earlier this week, news broke that three Navy SEALs were charged and may be court-martialed for allegedly punching a prisoner. The prisoner, a high-value target (HVT) was turned over to authorities with a bloody lip.

According to a source of mine — a retired SEAL who like myself still serves in other capacities — the feeling going around the Special Operations community at Fort Bragg is that this latest development is a kneejerk reaction to the situation a couple months ago when SEAL operators rescued Captain Phillips – Captain of the Maersk Alabama – off the coast of Somalia.

At the time of the capture, the media played up the angle that President Obama himself gave the order to the SEAL snipers to open fire. Having done extensive time in anti-terrorist units myself, I can tell you from personal experience this is ridiculous, a total fabrication. Nobody except those with “eyes on” the targeted individuals can make the judgment call to open fire.

The truth of the situation was that the SEALs were held off from infiltrating the AO (Area of Operations) for over 36 hours. There was a lot of resistance from the White House in letting them in theater in the first place; once they were in place they were given very restrictive ROE (Rules Of Engagement); so restrictive that they really couldn’t engage their targets. There were two previous opportunities to rescue Captain Phillips, and they were not allowed to engage their targets.

When they finally did execute, they did so by liberally interpreting the ROE; the onsite commander finally had enough with the situation and gave them a weapons-free command and they were able to engage and rescue Captain Phillips. The fallout from the National Command Authority was immediate and extremely unpleasant; the White House did not want the rescue to be conducted in the way that it was.

So the word on the street is that this latest development is payback for the SEALs violating the ROE in rescuing the captain of the Maersk Alabama. The Chain of Command is asserting itself, letting everybody know what’s going to happen to you if you don’t follow orders.

As this was expressed to me, this opinion is based on very good, solid inside information. In my personal experience with Navy brass I have found they are very political and very politically correct. The Naval Command’s reaction to the prisoner situation was so overblown and out of proportion that I somehow find this latest angle quite believable. Unfortunately.

Sounds plausible to me.

Hello again, Steve:

It's interesting how both Bush AND Obama can be responsible for all the ills in the world..

Somebody's fibbing.

excon

Wow, these Seals are elite and are taught how to kill and survive in order to serve country and protect us, but they can be brought up on charges for giving someone a bloody lip?

What?!

G&P

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

It's interesting how both Bush AND Obama can be responsible for all the ills in the world..

Somebody's fibbing.

Nah, some of it was Clinton and Carter's fault.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

So far Obama is passing this test

Hello again, tom:

Come on, admit it. If you're able to wend your way through the right wing chaff, you'll find that Obama is actually a NEOCON of the first order. He has EMBRACED the Bush doctrine on Gitmo. He hasn't brought ONE soldier from Iraq. In the face of a failed state, he has EMBRACED the general who LIED about Pat Tillman. He has EMBRACED torture, rendition, secret NSA wiretapping, the "look forward" philosophy. And, he's even EMBRACED bailing out the banks, which, under ordinary circumstances, should delight a right winger such as yourself.

Or, he's committed the WORST sin of all - alienating ALL sides.

excon

Quote:

, he's even EMBRACED bailing out the banks, which, under ordinary circumstances, should delight a right winger such as yourself.

Why would you say that ? I opposed the bank bailouts and TARP when President Bush signed them . I am like you on that issue . I don't believe in too big to fail . But I also think the growth of corporatism has very much been a construct of government interference.