Ask Me Help Desk - To bow or not to bow

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Why would someone wage war on your country simply because they assume you "look weak"?

Ask those responsible for "man-caused disasters."

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Bin Laden: “It Is Very Easy To Target [America’s] Flimsy Base And … We Will Be Able Crush And Destroy Them.” BIN LADEN: “In conclusion, America is definitely a great power, with an unbelievable military strength and a vibrant economy, but all of these have been built on a very weak and hollow foundation. Therefore, it is very easy to target that flimsy base and concentrate on their weak points and even if we are able to target one tenth of these weak points, we will be able [to] crush and destroy them and remove them from ruling and conquering the World.” (Translation Of Purported Bin Laden Audio Message, Posted On Islamist Site, 2/14/03) The Terrorists On Their Propaganda Strategy

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Osama Bin Laden: America's "Combat Strategy Is Heavily Dependent On The Psychological Aspect Of War … Which Hides The Cowardice And Lack Of Fighting Spirit Of The American Soldier." BIN LADEN: "It has been made clear during our defending and fighting against the American enemy that this enemy's combat strategy is heavily dependent on the psychological aspect of war due to its large and efficient media apparatus and of course its indiscriminate aerial bombing which hides the cowardice and lack of fighting spirit of the American soldier. … Likewise, let me remind you of the defeat of the American forces in Beirut in 1982, soon after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, when the Lebanese resistance was personified by the truck laden with explosives that struck the main military base of the US Marines in Beirut, killing 242 soldiers – towards Hell was their destination and what an evil destination that is." (Translation Of Purported Bin Laden Audio Message, Posted On Islamist Site, 2/14/03)

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Bin Laden: "In Somalia … The United States [Pulled] Out, Trailing Disappointment, Defeat, And Failure Behind It." BIN LADEN: "We found that out from our brothers who fought the Americans in Somalia. They did not see it as a power worthy of any mention. It was the big propaganda that the United State used to terrify people before fighting them. Our brothers, who were here in Afghanistan, also tried the Americans. God gave them and the mujahidin success in Somalia and the United States pull out, trailing disappointment, defeat, and failure behind it. It achieved nothing. It left quicker than people had imagined." (Full Text Of Interview With Al-Qaeda Leader Osama Bin Laden, 10/21/01)

Was Osama Right?
Islamists always believed the U.S. was weak. Recent political trends won't change their view.

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From the writings and the speeches of Osama bin Laden and his colleagues, it is clear that they expected this second task, dealing with America, would be comparatively simple and easy. This perception was certainly encouraged and so it seemed, confirmed by the American response to a whole series of attacks--on the World Trade Center in New York and on U.S. troops in Mogadishu in 1993, on the U.S. military office in Riyadh in 1995, on the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, on the USS Cole in Yemen in 2000--all of which evoked only angry words, sometimes accompanied by the dispatch of expensive missiles to remote and uninhabited places.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Islamists always believed the U.S. was weak. Recent political trends won't change their view.

Doesn't that defeat your point?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Doesn't that defeat your point?

Um, no. If we encourage or confirm that perception it emboldens them.

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More recent developments, and notably the public discourse inside the U.S. are persuading increasing numbers of Islamist radicals that their first assessment was correct after all, and that they need only to press a little harder to achieve final victory. It is not yet clear whether they are right or wrong in this view. If they are right, the consequences--both for Islam and for America--will be deep, wide and lasting.

Where is that quote from?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Um, no. If we encourage or confirm that perception it emboldens them.

Hello Steve:

I've heard this myth about "emboldening" our enemy because we're not like them... I don't buy it for a minute, and I didn't buy it when the dufus was saying it, either.

They are also saying some real stupid crap about how the enemy will be emboldened if they learn about our interrogation techniques, and that's why we must keep them secret...

Really! That is the STUPIDIST CRAP I've ever heard... Look, these people BLOW themselves up! Do you think discovering they'll be waterboarded if they're caught will deter them?? Stupid, stupid, stupid!

I guess this is what you're left with when you define the world as either good or evil.

excon

Suggested reading material: "Three Feathers" (At least I think that is the correct title)

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Where is that quote from?

The article you think defeats my point. You might try reading it before making assumptions.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello Steve:

I've heard this myth about "emboldening" our enemy because we're not like them... I don't buy it for a minute, and I didn't buy it when the dufus was saying it, either.

It's a little more than "because we're not like them," but nevertheless, wasn't 9/11 proof enough?

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They are also saying some real stupid crap about how the enemy will be emboldened if they learn about our interrogation techniques, and that's why we must keep them secret...

Really! That is the STUPIDIST CRAP I've ever heard... Look, these people BLOW themselves up! Do you think discovering they'll be waterboarded if they're caught will deter them?? Stupid, stupid, stupid!

On that I agree when we're talking Islamofascists, they could care less what our interrogation techniques are, but I don't think the argument was it would "embolden them," it was that they could train to resist specific techniques. Either way you're right, they blow themselves up so why should they care?

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I guess this is what you're left with when you define the world as either good or evil.

What are we left with if we don't? That's my question, care to answer it?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

The article you think defeats my point. You might try reading it before making assumptions.

Yea I read it, I don't agree with it. Different opinions.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello Steve:

I've heard this myth about "emboldening" our enemy because we're not like them... I don't buy it for a minute, and I didn't buy it when the dufus was saying it, either.

They are also saying some real stupid crap about how the enemy will be emboldened if they learn about our interrogation techniques, and that's why we must keep them secret...

Really! That is the STUPIDIST CRAP I've ever heard... Look, these people BLOW themselves up! Do you think discovering they'll be waterboarded if they're caught will deter them?? Stupid, stupid, stupid!

I guess this is what you're left with when you define the world as either good or evil.

Excon

From ET's post the prior page

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Just look at the history of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict for evidence... every time Israel makes a concession, the attacks against them by PA terrorists increase. Every time Israel shows its strength by invading and controlling West Bank territory, the attacks decrease significantly.

How about in playgrounds? Do you want the schoolyard bully to perceive you as weak?

I think it is fine to use diplomacy, and try to find common ground, understanding and mutual respect. I am for all that, short of war; but after WTC 1, the Cole bombings and no US response, what happened? POTUS Obama better make it clear to others that He and the country he represents is not going to just bow down, like POTUS Clinton did.

G&P

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Yea I read it, I don't agree with it. Different opinions.

There's no surprise. Some day you may figure out that "opinions" confirmed by actions become facts.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

There's no surprise. Some day you may figure out that "opinions" confirmed by actions become facts.

That sentence makes no logical sense whatsoever. If it is my opinion that people are basically good and I treat them that way then my action becomes a fact - is that what you mean?

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

That sentence makes no logical sense whatsoever. If it is my opinion that people are basically good and I treat them that way then my action becomes a fact - is that what you mean?

:rolleyes:

It doesn't make sense? Gee, terrorist who hates us and all we stand for sees weakness, attacks, thousands die - and you think that's an opinion?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

It doesn't make sense? Gee, terrorist who hates us and all we stand for sees weakness, attacks, thousands die - and you think that's an opinion?

By your own words earlier they think you are weak simply because you are the USA, not because of who's at the helm. Remember, they hate you for your "freedoms".

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

By your own words earlier they think you are weak simply because you are the USA, not because of who's at the helm. Remember, they hate you for your "freedoms".

Whatever, NK, you apparently think is a game. It's not.

So people are basically good and we should treat them with respect? Sounds a lot like Ahmadinejad.

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Ahmadinejad to the West: Mind Your Manners

"…In order to take control of the [world's] people, the arrogant ones, those who speak through violence, the [most] corrupt people in history, are targeting first and foremost the honor [of the world's peoples], since a man who loses his honor is ready to bear any suffering and is trampled and easily eliminated. It is impossible for the arrogant ones to overcome a society and a population who have tasted the taste of honor…

"Seven years ago, following the Iranian nation's steadfast stand on the nuclear issue, the enemies took up positions on both sides of Iran's borders, in the east and in the west, and announced that the reason for their military show of force was in order to contain the Iranian nation in the Middle East region. Several times they made as though they were about to attack [Iran], with military preparations and threats against the Iranian nation. However, by the grace of God and thanks to the Iranian nation's steadfastness, and thanks to the values of the martyrs, they were defeated…"

Ahmadinejad then addressed the world powers, saying: "We advise you to correct your behavior, since the world is changing… Stop the egotism, the aggression, and the lack of manners. Speak to the [world's] nations in a correct manner and politely…"

Iran "Is Known to the World as a Nation that Cannot Be Defeated"

"Thanks to the steadfastness of the Iranian nation, which stands behind the dear leader [Khamenei], this nation continues in its glorious path and is known to the world as a nation that cannot be defeated. Today, thanks to great achievements, the threat to Iran has been lifted, and no power in the world entertains the notion of taking action against the Iranian nation. Even if someone were to entertain this notion and want to undertake any act of aggression against the nation… he should know that the Iranian nation is ready, and any hand outstretched in order to attack will be cut off.

"The Iranian nation is one of civilization, culture, and values. It is peace-loving, and [its people are] people of reason and dialogue, justice and brotherhood. It desires that this atmosphere should exist throughout the world. They [the West] say that the world cannot be run through terror or militarism. We say the same thing; in fact, this is the deepest wish of the Iranian nation. However, the question here is: why are they making shows of force thousands of kilometers from their borders and attacking other nations? Stop your shows of force and aggression, and look to the world in peace and tranquility…"

All who believe the Mahdi Hatter is peace loving, raise your hand.

Here's some "basically good" drama from the Gaza Islamic University:

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"You Must Drink From the Blood of Muslims… But Mix It With Soda Water"

Jewish father: "We Jews hate the Muslims. We love killing Muslims. We Jews love drinking the blood of Muslims and the blood of Arabs. Are you Arabs? Are you Muslims? I hate you. Yes, I hate you. I hate you in order to please God. In order to please God… In order to please God…"

Shimon, his son: "Dad, I don’t know how God could possibly be pleased with you when you stink so much. You haven’t taken a shower for two years, yet you talk about pleasing God."

Father: "In order to please God… Shimon, my son, I’d like to teach you something. You must hate the Muslims."

Shimon: "Of course I hate them."

Father: "You must drink from the blood of Muslims."

Shimon: "But mix it with soda water."

Father: "I talked to the rabbi, [who told me] you should hate the Muslims, so God will be pleased with you."

Shimon: "Don’t worry, dad."

Father: "Very well, my son. I also want to remind you that you must hate the Muslims."

Shimon: "I do hate the Muslims!"

"Drink From the Blood of Muslims... Wash Our Hands with the Blood of Muslims"

Father: "

Father: "

Shimon: "Okay, but just one cup, because I’m full."

Shimon: "Very well, my son. God will be pleased with you. Come, my son, I want you to pray. Stand next to me and pray.

[…]

"I’m telling you to stand next to me and pray."

Father: "I’ll be back in a minute."I’m telling you to stand next to me and pray."Where are you going, son?"I’ll be back in a minute."To perform the ablution."Where are you going, son?"What? "To perform the ablution."I’m going to perform the ablution. Didn’t you want to pray?"What?!"Ablution is for Muslims. We don’t do that."I’m going to perform the ablution. Didn’t you want to pray?"They perform the ablution with water."Ablution is for Muslims. We don’t do that."We should wash our hands with the blood of Muslims."

Here's some "They perform the ablution with water." child education from Saudi Cleric Khaled Al-Khlewi:

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"So, my friends, the conclusion we may draw from this introduction is that with the Jews, nothing works but force. Memorize the following parable, just like I learned it from others: 'Kiss the head of a Jew, and he will deceive you - deceive him, and he will kiss your head.' The Jew is treacherous, disloyal, deceitful, and belligerent by nature. Nothing works with him but force.

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Khaled Al-Khlewi: "We should wash our hands with the blood of Muslims."

Omar: "Eight years old."basically good"[The Jews] Wanted to Kill the Prophet Muhammad... What Are They Doing to Our Muslim Brothers Now? They Are Killing Them"How old are you, Omar?"Do you like the Jews?"

"No."

Khaled Al-Khlewi: "You hate them. Why do you hate them? What did the Jews do?"

Omar: "They wanted to kill the Prophet Muhammad."

Khaled Al-Khlewi: "Well done. They wanted to kill the Prophet Muhammad. And what are they doing to our Muslim brothers now? They are killing them. When you curse them, what do you say? 'Oh God…'?"

Omar: "Oh God, destroy the Jews."

Khaled Al-Khlewi: Well done. 'And support…'?"

Khaled Al-Khlewi: "The Muslims."

Yep, nothing a little understanding won't cure.

I'll never understand the Faux News crowd.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

So people are basically good and we should treat them with respect?

Well I just used that as an example but apparently you spend an hour looking for info to prove that there are some bad people - I'm pretty sure I knew that. There are warmongers amongst us.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Well I just used that as an example but apparently you spend an hour looking for info to prove that there are some bad people - I'm pretty sure I knew that. There are warmongers amongst us.

I hate warmongers, ( was bush one of those) they are bad people.

Tick

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Originally Posted by 45notdaddy

I'll never understand the Faux News crowd.

Um, exactly what is the relevance of that comment?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Well I just used that as an example but apparently you spend an hour looking for info to prove that there are some bad people - I'm pretty sure I knew that. There are warmongers amongst us.

You're a funny guy... 5 minutes at Memri and you can get a lot. You guys think Fox news is the worst thing in the world but don't blink at Palestinian TV. You guys think Christian evangelicals are dangerous but a Saudi cleric teaching 8-year-olds to hate Jews doesn't raise an eyebrow. What a warped, warped world you live in.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

You're a funny guy...5 minutes at Memri and you can get a lot. You guys think Fox news is the worst thing in the world but don't blink at Palestinian TV. You guys think Christian evangelicals are dangerous but a Saudi cleric teaching 8-year-olds to hate Jews doesn't raise an eyebrow. What a warped, warped world you live in.

No! This is what I see;

Fox News for what it is,
NBC for what it is,
Palestinian TV for what it is,
Some Christian Evangelicals as dangerous, and
Saudi Clerics teaching 8 year old's to hate as disgraceful.

You see, I see it all as being in the same big basket. I don't see one side as good and the other as evil. They are all as bad as one another and we'd probably be better off without them. The with us or against us model simply doesn't and hasn't worked.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Um, exactly what is the relevance of that comment?

Do I really need to draw you a picture?

The hypocrite repubs on this boart showed no indignation when:

http://www.hermes-press.com/bush_kiss.jpg

And

http://www.hermes-press.com/bush_saudi7.jpg

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Originally Posted by tomder55

American Presidents do not bow before Royalty ,nor do we dip our flag in deference or salute.

But they will bo to religious leaders?

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/g...PopeRatz-1.jpg

[QUOTE=NeedKarma;1655015]

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The hypocrite repubs on this boart showed no indignation when:

http://www.hermes-press.com/bush_kiss.jpg

Nice Photoshopping. On the 2nd, it's been addressed, where've you been?

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Originally Posted by 45notdaddy

Do I really need to draw you a picture?

Yes, please. I sourced The Huffington Post, Slate Magazine, Newsbusters, Daily Kos, the NY Times, Merriam-Webster, Claremont, Discover the Networks, The Wall Street Journal and Memri.

A couple of minutes of research tells me that as far as I know the only ones that have mentioned Fox News are you and Wondergirl. So what's the relevance?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

But they will bo to religious leaders?

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/g...PopeRatz-1.jpg

From the horse's mouth, 11-June-2007 -- Catholic World News Brief

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President Bush drew a laugh from the Pope when he answered another question. The Pope asked whether a meeting between the US leader and Russian President Vladimir Putin had been productive. Bush replied, gesturing toward the reporters, "I'll tell you in a few minutes."

President Bush, who is a Methodist, did not bow when he met the Pope, and consistently addressed the Pontiff as "Sir."

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President Bush, who is a Methodist, did not bow when he met the Pope, and consistently addressed the Pontiff as "Sir."

Oh really?

http://www.spirituallysmart.com/images/bush_bow.jpg

Bow - I guess. Bent over :rolleyes: ?

I wonder if Obama bent or bowed for Rev. Wright? Oh that's right, Obama threw him under the bus after 20 years of not realizing what the Rev's views on America were :eek:

G&P

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Bow - I guess. Bent over :rolleyes: ?

Which is exactly what Obama did with the Queen. :rolleyes: You guys can be so blinded to only see stuff you want to see.

http://images.smh.com.au/2009/04/03/...w420-420x0.jpg
That's a bow. What Bush did was nod... it's very common among we Texans and many others in the south to nod when greeting someone.

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." G.W.B.—Washington, D.C. Aug. 5, 2004

"One of the very difficult parts of the decision I made on the financial crisis was to use hardworking people's money to help prevent there to be a crisis."—Washington, D.C. Jan. 12, 2009

"I'm telling you there's an enemy that would like to attack America, Americans, again. There just is. That's the reality of the world. And I wish him all the very best."—Washington, D.C. Jan. 12, 2009

All quotes G.W. Bush

I don't know why he bowed, but it was a mistake. I'm a big Obama fan, and regret that he did this. He's the President of the United States, which came about because we live in a democracy that chose him on his qualities and the power of his campaign. He earned his role. Monarchs become monarchs because they are born, which to me, is a holdover from another era.

In the end, though, it's a minor issue. Don't read too much into it.

Let's see some video, that just looks like he dropped something.

It looks like he bowed. I don't see how that could be construed as picking something up that someone had dropped.

Tick

Hello again:

I'm just amazed that bowing is all you got... You righty's are getting sillier every day.

excon

Um, didn't we go to war in the 1700's over not bowing to royalty? You might think it's silly, but American presidents do NOT bow to other world leaders. And yes, even Bush's hand holding was embarrassing, but at least it wasn't subservient. Our "leader," the Commander in Chief, the "leader of the free world" showing such submissive gestures is pathetic. Such symbolism has some serious meaning to a world that wants nothing more than to see us brought to our knees.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Such symbolism has some serious meaning to a world that wants nothing more than to see us brought to our knees.

You might want to talk to a therapist about that persecution complex. BTW the US is so far up the Saudi's butt that it really doesn't matter what your president does.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Our "leader," the Commander in Chief, the "leader of the free world" showing such submissive gestures is pathetic. Such symbolism has some serious meaning to a world that wants nothing more than to see us brought to our knees.

Hello again, Steve:

As you are fond of saying, now we're getting to the heart of it.

You view any foreign policy that isn't belligerent, threatening or saber rattling as weakness. I view THAT policy as making us LESS safe, and by adopting it, we hasten our own demise. Such a policy would wind up with a world that "wants nothing more than see us brought to our knees" - kind of like the one we have now.

Instead, Obama believes in the old Republican saw of "walking softly, while carrying a big stick".

Plus, if you want to talk about pathetic, making up stuff, so that we could invade a country that posed NO THREAT to us, was pretty damn pathetic. One could say that it was a touch more dangerous than bowing. One could say that... Ok, I'M saying that.

excon