Years back I used to go to PP for ob/gyn. I used their services for 3 years before I switch to another clinic. I must say that I loved the services they provided but I dreaded going there because every time I went there protesters would be out front bothering everyone that went inside thinking they were going in to get an abortion. One day I got into an agreement with one because she was all in my face about not getting an abortion.

A lot of abortions clinic offer services other than abortions but some people tend to only focus on that part. I don't think by purchases these gift certificates your giving someone the gift of death and besides when you give someone something it is up to the person to use it for anything they want.

I for one is not to keen on abortions however it is the woman right to choose what they want to do. Everyone is entitle to that.

As insane as I felt this reported news was, it was reported that one family planning started this idea and her robust opinion is what I find insane.

Note :
Betty Cockrum, president and CEO of Planned Parenthood of Indiana, characterizes the response to the gift certificates as "pretty robust, and generally very favorable."


Yet in every posted message here in this thread, I have heard no one mention any response to the linked web site of Gianna Jessen. Unless I missed something?

It is Gianna's actions and opinion that I found worth mentioning as applauding . She puts the heart of love into what we should appreciate of each individual and their right to life..

Facts and the reporting of all facts can be the difference in someones life. Even the life of an unborn baby.

Does anyone agree with Gianna Jessen?

Gianna Jessen was mentioned and debated during the campaign I think when the issue of the Illinois Born Alive Infants Protection Act came up .

Here is her testimony to Congress during the Born Alive Infant Protection Act of 2000 debates :
Testimony of Gianna Jessen

Do I agree with Gianna? Without a doubt and I am certainly moved by her testimony. I think hers is one of the most important stories we can ever hear. When we've cheapened life to the point where government actually has to debate a "Born alive act," her story and her desire to "infuse humanity" into the debate are much needed. As Michelle Obama would say "our souls are broken in this nation." Except I think Gianna understands that better than Michelle's husband.

A 7 months abortion would not happen in this day and age unless there was a medical danger to the mother involved. NO state allows third trimester abortions for ANY other reason.

I can't even respond to this thread anymore. Having met so many people that chose abortions for reasons that were VERY valid to them (abuse, incest, medical conditions), I can not in good conscience support anyone who thinks that the life of the fetus is more important than the life of the mother.

Having ALSO been through the pain that adoption holds (yeah---they don't like to advertise the fact that birthmothers go through depression, have commitment issues later in life, commit suicide, have an increased risk of infertility, or any of the other problems associated with relinquishment. They'd rather focus on how "happy" you've made an infertile couple, and how "good" you are to not have chosen abortion. Then they tell you to get on with your life and stop mourning a child that is perfectly happy where it is!), I can't in good conscience support advising women to choose that instead. Adoption HURTS. It still hurts, every day, 17 years later. It is EXACTLY the same as losing a child to death--your child "dies" so that another couple's child can be "born". I wouldn't wish adoption on my worst enemy, especially with the laws and social norms that focus on the adoptive family and not on the birthfamily and their issues.

Honestly--the best way to combat abortions is to encourage safer sex and birth control. And frankly--that's the majority of what Planned Parenthood does.

However--too many people scream about the "rights" of a clump of cells, and about how "evil" abortion is. I also love the attitude of "The Only Moral Abortion is MY Abortion" that's displayed by right-to-lifers that have HAD abortions.

This website is pretty good information on that. "The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion" - When the Anti-Choice Choose

Frankly, I don't think that anyone that has not been faced with the choice THEMSELVES can really be a judge of how people should react to their unplanned pregnancies.

Abortion is LEGAL. I'm GLAD it's legal---if you really think someone dies in that process, then it's STILL better than 2 people dying in a back alley with a butcher knife, or girls who try to use coat hangers on themselves. It's STILL better than being told you will die if you try to carry a child to term and have no recourse BUT to carry the child to term and die delivering it.

If you want abortion to be ILLEGAL, then by all means, work through channels to make it so. But please--stop with the moral propaganda for issues (like third trimester abortions) that have already been made illegal.

It doesn't matter if third trimester abortions are illegal or not, Gianna's story is relevant.

People can justify abortions for all manner of reasons that are valid to THEM, and I didn't know the pro-life movement viewed the life of the fetus as more important than the life of the mother. It's amazing how every time the subject comes up abortion supporters project imaginary views on us and get all dramatic about back alleys and coat hangers. You guys seem to think we're unfeeling, unsympathetic, intolerant, ignorant neanderthals.

I have no doubt that adoption is often traumatic for the birth mother but I cannot for the life of me see how anyone would rather their child be dead than have a chance to live happily with someone else, or "can't in good conscience support advising women to choose" life for their child. We are not talking about "a clump of cells," we're talking about people, and fighting for the rights of the most helpless and innocent is not "propaganda."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

It's amazing how every time the subject comes up abortion supporters project imaginary views on us and get all dramatic about back alleys and coat hangers.
"

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Ah I have heard Pro Life people say that with an abortion you could have just killed the next Einstein. Talk about dramatic and Imaginary.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spitvenom

Ah I have heard Pro Life people say that with an abortion you could have just killed the next Einstein. Talk about dramatic and Imaginary.

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Dramatic, yet entirely possible. Imaginary was in reference to views not expressed but attributed to us anyway.

If I concede that abuse, incest, medical conditions i.e. health of mother may be legitimate reasons for abortions in a civil society would you in turn concede that the overwhelming vast majority of abortions performed are contraceptive ;therefore being a poor excuse for murdering an infant ?

I am entering this debate late because I have taken a AMHD break. But I am back and I feel compelled to answer.

I agree with Synn in so many ways on this issue. If planned parenthood wants to give g.c. then great. That might allow someone who can't afford medical care, support with family planning or conseling a chance to get what they need. Just because the give out the g.c. does not mean that everyone walking in the door is going to have an abortion.

That being said, I thank god every day that abortions are legal. As a person who knows someone who got pregnant due to a violent act I support abortions. I firmly believe that if my friend had to carry that baby to term then either keep it or give it up for adoption it would kill her. Why... to look at a child conceived from a night that almost killed you every day would be like seeing that night on a daily basis. On the other hand, knowing her as I do, I know that having a child and then giving it away would also kill her. Also, could you imagine when that child grew up and asked about their daddy... what do you say to that child then? Well I did not know your daddy he came up behind me... raped me and stabbed me?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tuscany

Also, could you imagine when that child grew up and asked about their daddy...what do you say to that child then?? Well I did not know your daddy he came up behind me...raped me and stabbed me?

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Here we go with the drama again, as if EVERY unplanned pregnancy had such tragic circumstances behind it. I second tom's challenge.

So Speech then you agree that it is possible that an abortion took out the next Hitler? Seems to me that is a good thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Here we go with the drama again, as if EVERY unplanned pregnancy had such tragic circumstances behind it. I second tom's challenge.

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No NOT every unplanned prenancy does, but for those that do having the CHOICE to do something about it can be comforting

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spitvenom

So Speech then you agree that it is possible that an abortion took out the next Hitler? seems to me that is a good thing.

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Sure it's possible, but I still don't see how most abortions can ever be a good thing. It's way beyond anything I can possibly comprehend that so many people would be so adamant about defending the right to kill unborn children for virtually any reason.

I am not defending the right to kill anyone. I am defending the right for a woman (or a couple) to make their own choice. I do not want to control others decisions and I certainly don't want my decisions controlled by somebody that knows nothing about me, my life, or what brought me to make such a hard decision.

As Tom Stated I don't think abortion should be used as birth control but some people do use it for that and it is sad.

I have no kids and my fiancée and I don't want kids, but if she got pregnant I wouldn't say lets go get an abortion, I would say lets go to the Dr to see how far along you are and start preparing for a baby.

If she said she wanted an abortion I would fight her on that. Not because I think life is precious trust me I meet people everyday that should have been take out before they were born. I just think you should live up to your responsibilities. But I am not going to sit here and tell someone else how to live their life's. If they want to have an abortion go ahead it does not affect me at all.

That's just it Tuscany, it's not just a "choice," it's a child - as Gianna so vividly demonstrates. Seriously, what's the difference in giving someone the right to choose to kill a child for virtually any reason and giving them the right to choose to kill anyone else for virtually any reason? 9 months? Being in or out of the womb? I don't get it, it's not just a blob of tissue, a tumor to be removed for convenience.

Over 1 million abortion murders per year in the US... over 48 million since Roe . How many of them are truly decisions made about the health of the mother ;or rape etc. Why not call it what it really is... a barbarous form of contraception ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Has everyone veiwed the insane idea brought to attention Dec 2 for holiday gift certificate?
The New York Times reported that 35 parent planning station across the Unitied States have offered the gift of death as a Christmas gift.

As quoted in the news:

Here's an original holiday gift idea to help the person who may have everything, including a little something they don't really want. A new way to mark the festive yearend celebration of life -- a gift certificate for an abortion.

I applaude Gianna Jessen who is an abortion survivor. And I ask that you to give your heart to her message. Don't miss part 2 also... I promise it is worth hearing.

Part 1
GodTube.com - davisc - Gianna Jessen - Abortion Survivor (Part 1 of 2)


Part 2
GodTube.com - davisc - Gianna Jessen - Abortion Survivor (Part 2 of 2)

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Ironic that Herod would have been all in favor of aborting and killing all male infants.
And what timing of PP to promote their "services" during the Christmas season :eek:




As to facts :

Quote:

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Abortion Surveillance --- United States, 2002

The abortion rate for black women (29 per 1,000 women) was 3.0 times the rate for white women (10 per 1,000), whereas the abortion rate for women of other races (20 per 1,000 women) was 2.1 times the rate for white women.

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Abortion is the ultimate in racism!!







g&p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spitvenom

As Tom Stated I don't think abortion should be used as birth control but some people do use it for that and it is sad.

I have no kids and my fiancee and I don't want kids, but if she got pregnant I wouldn't say lets go get an abortion, I would say lets go to the Dr to see how far along you are and start preparing for a baby.

If she said she wanted an abortion I would fight her on that. Not because I think life is precious trust me I meet people everyday that should have been take out before they were born. I just think you should live up to your responsibilities. But I am not going to sit here and tell someone else how to live their life's. If they want to have an abortion go ahead it does not affect me at all.

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I agree with Spitve here. I don't think it should be used a birth control and I don't think I could ever have one... definately not as a form of because. But like Spitve it is not my place to tell someone how to live their life.

Depends I guess when you think human life begins and when that human life is eligible for legal constitutional protection .

It's not a "child" until it is born. It is a fetus.

Until it is viable outside of the womb, it really isn't even CLOSE to a child.

And really--how long does it take to PROVE rape, incest, abuse? Do you make her wait until it goes through courts? Or do you grant the abortion and THEN watch it go through courts? How many people will be falsely accused of horrendous crimes if you do?

As far as health of the mother--does her mental and emotional health mean nothing compared to her physical health? If it will literally make her crazy to raise a child or to give it to someone else to raise--doesn't that count as much as it causing her to hemorrhage? Who are YOU to decide what "health" is?

If everyone who is so adamantly against abortion went out and adopted a foster child that the mother couldn't bear to give up for adoption, but wasn't ready for and neglected or abused and had her children taken from her for it---well, I might concede your point. Maybe. But many of the kids in the foster care system weren't planned, weren't wanted, and now will have extremely tough lives loaded with mental and emotional issues because NO ONE wanted them.

So... you say no abortions because it's KILLING. What do you suggest those women do? Give birth, and then deal with the pain & suffering that is adoption? Give birth, raise their child in poverty, depending on the state (and tax dollars I feel can be better allocated) for every single thing she needs to raise the child?

Gianna is proof of nothing except that abortions where the fetus is VIABLE should not happen. How many abortions where the baby is able to just be born and survive actually happen?

Quote:

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Until it is viable outside of the womb, it really isn't even CLOSE to a child.

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Can that same reasoning be applied to those in nursing homes, or those on ventilators, or those that need round the clock nursing care?

Is that the next step? That is some slippery slope.

As to what about rape ?

Quote:

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Abortion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In 2000, cases of rape or incest accounted for 1% of abortions.[9] Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following reasons for choosing an abortion:[10]

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What of the other 99%?


As to "viability"

WPClinic.org : Choices You Can Live With » First Trimester


If we apply that reason to manufacturing, lets abort all produced goods before they reach the end of an assembly line because they are not " viable." Lets abort growing food because they are not "viable" to the end of growing season.





g&p

Honestly you know what kills me the most... there are some people who believe in pro - life so much that they TAKE ANOTHER LIFE in support of it. It happened in another city close to where I live. Pro-life demonstrators killed a Dr. who was entering a clinic... hmmmm not to pro-life if you ask me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Can that same reasoning be applied to those in nursing homes, or those on ventilators, or those that need round the clock nursing care?

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If you have to be taken care of 24 hours a day or need machine's to make you live then you should have the choice of assisted suicide. I don't understand why people would fight that. Lets see if I incurable cancer and Have a year to live I have to suffer then my family suffers financially and emotionally and then I die. OR I could have an assisted suicide I don't suffer any more my family doesn't suffer I just die. Why is that wrong?

What is viability ? Every child depends on an adult long past their birth . Premies can be cared for outside the womb and survive . The world's youngest premie was born at 21 weeks .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Ironic that Herod would have been all in favor of aborting and killing all male infants.
And what timing of PP to promote their "services" during the Christmas season :eek:


g&p

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Yes and if you think about this, would we like what Christ would say? I realize not all believe in God, but even those that don't believe, usually come forward to say they are capable of love for others.

The fact is that at 10 weeks the baby has feet, 24 days the heart begins to beat, 48 days the brain waves can be reported. And spiritually God has given the soul to the womb, as was Christ present in spirit when Mary told of her pregancy to her cousin the very next day. So from conception the soul is present..

Men in war give up their life for our rights to freedom and life. The willingness to give and love others is shown of their hearts and courage. We have heroes around us each day that give their lives for others. And as a mother, I would give my life for a child any day of the week.

We should bring love forward and stand above any evil.. The price to end evil should never be death of a innocent baby.. We fight evil and destroy evil because it is evil.

Can anyone look upon a baby and say it is evil?

Part 1
GodTube.com - davisc - Gianna Jessen - Abortion Survivor (Part 1 of 2)

Part 2
GodTube.com - davisc - Gianna Jessen - Abortion Survivor (Part 2 of 2)

Abortion is evil, and my heart can never justify the killing of an innocent baby.

21 weeks is still middle of the second trimester, not the FIRST trimester, which is all most states allow for abortion. It's not even CLOSE to full term.

"Viable" 1: capable of living ; especially : having attained such form and development as to be normally capable of surviving outside the mother's womb <a viable fetus>
2: capable of growing or developing <viable seeds> <viable eggs>
3 a: capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately <viable alternatives> b: capable of existence and development as an independent unit <the colony is now a viable state> c (1): having a reasonable chance of succeeding <a viable candidate> (2): financially sustainable <a viable enterprise>

From here viable - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Yes, a child depends on care for long after it is out of the womb---but the difference is that the care can come from ANYONE at that point. Prior to that, it is dependent SOLELY upon the pregnant woman.

PS--I don't believe in your god. His rules are absolutely worthless when arguing your point with me.

Believe what you like. I will continue to fight for the rights for women to choose. And believe me, if somehow those rights are overturned, I will make sure that the rights some of you take for granted about choosing in your own life are going to be overturned as well---rights such as choosing when to have a child, whether to have a child, how many children can you have, what kind of birth control you have to use, and whether it is permanent after you have your last child. If MY reproductive choices get taken away in favor of a clump of cells, you're damned right that I will work towards getting EVERYONE'S reproductive choices taken away.

And you want to talk about slippery slopes?

You guys talk about "viability" but ignore things like value. You say it isn't a child it's just a "fetus." Yeah, with fingers and toes, and eyes and ears...

http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...4_04700300.jpg

http://blogs.abcnews.com/scienceands...n_the_womb.jpg

Thank you National Geographic.

Babies look like aliens to me. I know we all start like that but man babies are ugly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

what is viability ? every child depends on an adult long past their birth . Premies can be cared for outside the womb and survive . The world's youngest premie was born at 21 weeks .

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I have a niece who was not much more than that, she weighed 1 lb 8 ounces when born. That's a less than 1% chance of survival according to statistics. She's a bit small still but a healthy, gorgeous, bright, 8 year old girl now. I can't imagine not giving her a chance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Synnen

So...you say no abortions because it's KILLING. What do you suggest those women do? Give birth, and then deal with the pain & suffering that is adoption? Give birth, raise their child in poverty, depending on the state (and tax dollars I feel can be better allocated) for every single thing she needs to raise the child ?

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The pain and suffering? Is it because she has feeling of love for this child? because that is a reality that usually is found in the heart. Love for a baby. Otherwise there is no pain or suffering in giving a child their right to live and allow the adoption. I am not without reason to understand the emotional high jacking there would be in a situation of rape. But I feel we to quickly jump to abortion being the answer in favor because we are programmed in thinking what if. Also people react to what others might think or say if indeed the mother kept the baby.

We kill babies in abortion, but we allow men that rape women to live. Now how sick is that? And whether you believe in God or not, our nation of Christians was set up as a nation under God. The bible tells us to kill the man that rapes and murders. Send those back to God where they came, and God will deal with their sin. In other words destroy evil, and protect man and woman from evil.

I believe we have made the wrong choice in what is right. If we followed God's instruction, I could believe and imagine there would be less rapes..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Synnen

Gianna is proof of nothing except that abortions where the fetus is VIABLE should not happen. How many abortions where the baby is able to just be born and survive actually happen?

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Did you view the decision Gianna said? Up until President Bush stopped this action by putting it into law, it was a regular occurance. So we are gaining in the forward stand for life.

I'm done. Unsubscribing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

If we followed God's instruction, I could believe and imagine there would be less rapes..

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You've had 200 years, it's not working.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

You've had 200 years, it's not working.

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200 years of what, NK? Following God's instruction? Since Roe v. Wade in 1973 there have been some 52 million abortions in the US. Is that what you call following God's instruction?

Sorry, meant to say 2000 years. And I was referring to rapes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

You've had 200 years, it's not working.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Sorry, meant to say 2000 years. And I was referring to rapes.

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Not sure what you mean.. What has been done 2000 year with rape that isn't working?

We certainly haven't done what God instructed for murders and men who rape women..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

It doesn't matter if third trimester abortions are illegal or not, Gianna's story is relevant.

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So is Synnen's story relevant. Very actually. But because it doesn't agree with your beliefs you simply ignore it.

If third trimester abortions are now illegal then I don't see how Gianna's story is relevant.

And posting cute little photos isn't a real argument in my opinion.
Ill find some photo's of a kid where grand daddy decided to get mummy pregnant. Or maybe some photos of a mother
And you talk about drama and imaginary...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skell

So is Synnen's story relevant. Very actually. but because it doesn't agree with your beliefs you simply ignore it.

If third trimester abortions are now illegal then i dont see how Gianna's story is relevant.

And posting cute little photos isn't a real argument in my opinion.
Ill find some photo's of a kid where grand daddy decided to get mummy pregnant. Or maybe some photos of a mother
And you talk about drama and imaginary...

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Skell, I never said Synnen's story wasn't relevant and I don't ignore it. In fact I said "I have no doubt that adoption is often traumatic for the birth mother," which I guess you missed.

Gianna's story is MOST relevant regardless of what abortions are illegal, or have you forgotten those "fetuses" become Giannas? And as tom pointed out the youngest surviving infant was born at 21 weeks, along with my 1 lb 8 ounce niece - both being born in the second trimester.

And it's nice to know you think National Geographic's groundbreaking presentation of life in the womb is "imaginary."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

And it's nice to know you think National Geographic's groundbreaking presentation of life in the womb is "imaginary."

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The images you posted are later term and computer generated.