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Originally Posted by asking

Perhaps I took too much from the wikiepedia entry, which said his father "forced" him into the military. I thought that spoke volumes about Dahmer's boundaries (or lack of them) and his father too. But I will defer to your superior knowledge on this topic. In any case, it doesn't sound like a very happy or healthy childhood.

I agree with you completely about the current 8 year old.

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You are right Asking, he did force his son into the military, but at that time he'd already been in trouble with the law for molesting a 13 year old boy. His father thought the military would set him on the right path, give him structure.

Sorry, I just find his life story very interesting. He was such a normal person on the outside, everyone was shocked when they found out what he'd done. Even at his trial he always remained calm, confessed to all his crimes, and took his punishment. There was no anger, no rage, yet his crimes where so horrible. I always marvelled at someone who could apper so normal yet be so abnormal.

It's scary to realize how fragile the human mind is. I do believe that he was predisposed to violence, that he just wasn't "wired" right. But, if his childhood had been different, would the outcome have also been different, or would he still have become a serial murderer? It's a scary thought, that everything we do when raising our children, has an effect on them later in life. How do we know we're doing everything right? After all, we are human, we make mistakes. What if we're making a huge mistake and end up with a child like Jeffrey Dahmer?

Maybe I should start my own thread on the topic, I'm hijacking poor excons thread. :(

Sorry Exy, I won't mention any more about Dahmer. My lip is zipped. ;)

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Originally Posted by asking

To me, it's all age related.

I've never been clear why we have all these rules about not trying children as adults, and then make exceptions because they did something creepy.

If you want to punish 17 years olds like 30 year olds, then change the law and make them "adults." You can always make an exception in the direction of leniency if there are mitigating circumstances.

Eight is the age when children first begin to realize they are separate persons, not just an extension of their family, parents. It can be a tumultuous year as kids this age try to establish boundaries. But they are still deeply childish, not like a 12 year old, who can be quite adult if raised well.

But, now I'm curious. Why are you asking these questions?

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I agree with you 100%.

Personally, I don't see why we even have age limits if we aren't going to use them. Why is it the law that someone isn't an adult until 18, but then we try an 8 year old as an adult? You can't have it both ways. Either you're a child in all regards, or an adult in all regards.

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Originally Posted by asking

To me, it's all age related..... But, now I'm curious. Why are you asking these questions?

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Hello again, asking:

I ask, for the same reasons I ask ALL my questions here - to affect change.

I remember a time when we actually DID treat children as children. Then sometime around the 70's when "tough on crime" became the watchword of every politician of every stripe, things started to change. That's when we began our present quest to nowhere...

We, of course, started charging children as adults.. But, that's only part of the story. We started the drug war. We started mandatory sentences. We ended parole. We started tracking "sex offenders". We closed down "club fed". We threw away the idea of rehabilitation and adopted the idea of punishment. Building prisons became a "growth" industry.

I don't know if we're going to change anything... But, I ain't going to stop speaking out about the injustice of it.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, asking:

I ask, for the same reasons I ask ALL my questions here - to affect change.

I remember a time when we actually DID treat children as children. Then sometime around the 70's when "tough on crime" became the watchword of every politician of every stripe, things started to change. That's when we began our present quest to nowhere...

We, of course, started charging children as adults.. But, that's only part of the story. We started the drug war. We started mandatory sentences. We ended parole. We started tracking "sex offenders". We closed down "club fed". We threw away the idea of rehabilitation and adopted the idea of punishment. Building prisons became a "growth" industry.

I dunno if we're gonna change anything.... But, I ain't gonna stop speaking out about the injustice of it.

excon

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Well, I agree with you, so you are preaching to the choir (as it were). Not only are prisons a growth industry, they are now privatized and profit-driven. It's just wrong, wrong, wrong to give anyone a financial incentive to want another human being locked up.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I agree with you 100%.

Personally, I don't see why we even have age limits if we aren't going to use them. Why is it the law that someone isn't an adult until 18, but then we try an 8 year old as an adult? You can't have it both ways. Either you're a child in all regards, or an adult in all regards.

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Yes! We all seem to be on the same page here...

So why do some people even consider trying children as adults? What is their motivation? What does a prosecutor get out of that?

I have no idea why anyone would want to send a child to an adult prison, or to prison period.

The prosecutors must get something out of it. Maybe they all secretly hate children. I don't know, but I really can't see a good reason to try a child as an adult.

Someone needs to slap these people upside the head. Anyone care to join me, I'm all in!

Speaking of prison being a growth industry look who is being indicted. The Associated Press: Cheney, Gonzales indicted in South Texas county

Setting up another stalinist show trial .it isn't going to happen .

Ever hear of the Supremacy Clause ?

That boy must be stupid!! also cheak out my thing called why is my dog sleeping a lot? I need a answer for that and also cheak out rihanna or leona lewis,madonna or kylie minogue and liverpool or man u? Cheak them thanks bye!!

I finally went and read some of the stories about this case (better late than never) and I'm not convinced he murdered these two men. It sounds like a coerced confession. Also, I'm annoyed by the number of times that reporters say there was "no evidence of abuse." No evidence means nothing. It 's not evidence of no abuse. It's no data. Period.

I think we basically know nothing about what happened and a confession under these circumstances--just saw his father die, alone with police for an hour, etc--means little.

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Originally Posted by Puppylover46236;1383234[B

]that boy must be stupid[/B]!!!!!!!!!!also cheak out my thing called why is my dog sleeping a lot? i need a answer for that and also cheak out rihanna or leona lewis,madonna or kylie minogue and liverpool or man u? cheak them thx bye!!!!!

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That boy is 8 years old!

As for asking us to check out your other posts, that's up to us. I don't think that voting on different singers is as important as an 8 year old boy who has committed murder. That's just my opinion though.

Asking I saw last night that they have no proof the 8 year old shot both of the men. And the person on cnn (I forget who) said the police basically lead him along until they got the answers they wanted.

Spitvenom, that's what it looks like to me too. He started just saying he found them dead, but they pressured him for an hour and kept implying that they would prove he did it by finding his fingerprints on the gun and it would be better for him to confess. Well of course his fingerprints are on the 22;it's his gun. He knows that and if the police are telling him he must have done it and they can prove it with the fingerprints, the poor kid is starting to disconnect from reality. After an hour of bullying by police, what kid wouldn't give in and concede that "maybe" he did it? It's appalling.

That poor kid. Where is this kids mother? Why isn't she in the picture, why, if she's still living, isn't she there to protect him?

Now that I read that I think one of the officers said to the 8 year old something like We know someone who said that they saw you do it. Or something along those lines.

The kid is 8. he's a child. He does not no better

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

That poor kid. Where is this kids mother? Why isn't she in the picture, why, if she's still living, isn't she there to protect him?

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This is what I have been wondering. She apparently lost him in the divorce and is in another state, which is, to me, a bad sign. A dad who takes a kid away from his mother?

And makes the step mother spank him for minor infractions (but doesn't even do it himself). (I can't imagine spanking an 8 year old, let alone someone else's kid.) The boy gets off the school bus at 3:30 and is expected to wander around the neighborhood for 90 minutes until an adult gets home at 5 pm. On a regular basis.

Poor kid.

I think that what he needs more than anything is some love and affection. That poor, poor kid.

Why is it that you need a license to get a dog but any idiot can have a child?

There's something wrong with this world. :(

A few pages ago, a question was asked - if this child is tried as an adult is is age or crime related?

I, personally, think that it is crime related. If, as someone said, he had stolen candy and pop then he would not be tried as an adult. The crime was more of an "adult" crime. That would be my guess.

I question - what would the politicians have to gain by trying this child as an adult? What does politics have to do with THIS case?

I like to know why wasn't the gun locked up for safe keeping?

On CNN they stated that the father brought the son the gun to show him how to shoot but I think that is too young and the gun isn't a pistol it looks like a rifle. Why do a 8 year old need a big gun like that and needs to learn how to shoot?

Do they have laws about this? If not, they should. I can help to think that the father and friend would still be alive if the gun was in a secure place.

The kid is eight. It's possible he doesn't even understand what "death" or "dead" really means. Regardless, an eight-year-old has no business in an adult prison. And it sounds like there's a big question on if he did it or not.

To the second part of the question - I guess for me I weigh it on age and crime. I have a lot less sympathy for a 17-year-old who hacked his parents to death than for an 8-year-old. But I don't think either should spend time in an adult prison until they are of "adult" age.

This is the second case recently about a young child doing something "adult". The first that comes to mind is the boy in Australia who broke into a zoo, killed several animals by bashing their heads in, and fed others to a crocodile. He's not being charged with anything because of his age. Boy, 7, Breaks Into Zoo, Kills Animals.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again:

Ok, I won't keep you in suspense. We used to put people under 18 into the juvenile system, because we believed that children didn't have the capacity to understand the ramifications of their acts. It had nothing to do with the crime. It had everything to do with their age. It worked fine.

Then, sometime around the early 70's, when CRIME became an issue, and SOFT on crime became an anathema, we began charging children as adults... In my view, it was done strictly for political purposes.

It's time we ALL became the bleeding heart liberals that we once were.

excon

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It isn't about politics. What's wrong today, is that the people of America have stopped caring about one another, as human beings, in general. That doesn't mean that we were all once bleeding heart liberals. Neither does that mean that everyone used to care. Nor does it indicate that most people are jerks. Subscribing to only one view or another is black and white thinking. Black and white work well for mathematical equations. When personalities get involved, becoming rigid-thinking only serves to fuel anger and judgement.

Does capital punishment really help solve things, I mean what lesson is taught? Should all male rapists be castrated? Should an 8-year-old boy be tried as an adult? The answer to all of these questions is that, "it depends on the circumstances." Circumstances involving human beings are never black and white.

Those of us (certainly not me) with the ability to sift through all evidence available to us and come up with succinct sensibility are a gift to society. Why don't they get voted for? Why are these people not heard more? Why aren't they on television, and the american populace hanging on every word? Who do you champion, and why?

Hello again:

You asked, who would want to put a kid like this in prison...

I'll tell you who. Bill O'Reilly and his click. When he was watching the video of the police ILLEGALLY interviewing the kid, Bill noticed that the kid said he killed his dad, and wasn't emotional at all when he said it. To Bill, that meant the kid was a sociopath and should rot in the slam. Billo isn't alone in his thinking.

To ME, and I think to you, his lack of emotion is EXACTLY WHAT YOU'D EXPECT FROM AN 8 year old. They don't really understand that DEAD is FOREVER. That's why we treat them differently.

The Arizona cops should be ashamed of themselves... Plus, I know it's a small police force, but how come they didn't know they should't interview a kid WITHOUT a parent or WITHOUT a lawyer? Doesn't EVERY police force know that?? Ok, no they don't.

excon

Actually no parents don't have to be there to ask them questions, in fact normally it is pefered not to have them there. Also as long as they are charged as a child ( youth) they actually don't have the same rights as a adult, in Juv court, although they go in for a specific crime, youth court looks to see what they believe is in the best interest of the child.

Wow, you mean an 8 year old child can be interrogated without their parents present? What about counsel?

An 8 year old child could be easily coerced into accepting blame for something he/she didn't even do. Imagine how scared this young boy was, being alone with the police, being questioned without his mother there, or counsel there to protect his rights.

I just don't think that's right.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again:

You asked, who would want to put a kid like this in prison....

I'll tell you who. Bill O'Reilly and his click. When he was watching the video of the police ILLEGALLY interviewing the kid, Bill noticed that the kid said he killed his dad, and wasn't emotional at all when he said it. To Bill, that meant the kid was a sociopath and should rot in the slam. Billo isn't alone in his thinking.

To ME, and I think to you, his lack of emotion is EXACTLY WHAT YOU'D EXPECT FROM AN 8 year old. They don't really understand that DEAD is FOREVER. That's why we treat them differently.

The Arizona cops should be ashamed of themselves.... Plus, I know it's a small police force, but how come they didn't know they should't interview a kid WITHOUT a parent or WITHOUT a lawyer?? Doesn't EVERY police force know that???? Ok, no they don't.

excon

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I watched bill o'reilly discuss this with the two women that he refers to his legal panel or something like that... I didn't get the impression at ALL that He thought this boy belonged in jail. Perhaps you dislike bill o'reilly and you read into his comment. Just a thought... ( I am part of his click... fyi)

Hey exy... don't BE a pin-head!

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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/13/us...d.html?_r=1&hp


Ms. Bloomfield described her son as a “normal boy” who played video games nonstop

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I wonder which videogames this kid was playing?


I don't think an 8 yo understands the finality of death. In a lot of videogames the goal is violence, no right or wrong, no consequences for your actions, no legal penalties, and your player always has several lives or you can restart.

[QUOTE=Fr_Chuck;1384955]actually no parents don't have to be there to ask them questions, in fact normally it is pefered not to have them there. Also as long as they are charged as a child ( youth) they actually don't have the same rights as a adult, in Juv court, although they go in for a specific crime, youth court looks to see what they believe is in the best interest of the child.[/QUOTE

On CNN and many talk shows, lawyers stated that a parent doesn't have to be present for questioning but once he confessed to the crime they should've stop and let a parent be present for the rest of the questioning but they didn't because they knew most likely the parent would've asked for a lawyer. Even Judge Alex agreed.

The thing I don't like about this is why did they released the tape of the boy being question. That was wrong and considering his age. In the interview it seems like they were interviewing him as a witness then a suspect. If I was the parent I would have stop the tape from airing and stop it from airing.

I don't believe this child should be charged as an adult but I do believe that he needs therapy a psycologyst or someone who can help him. 8 years in the world, he dose not know what he has done!! Im sure in the future he will regret it but now the poor child just cannot possibly know what he has done. I mean when I was that age I didn't even know much about death.. let alone acctually killing someone. The authorities in that state are taking this over board. I understand he took two lives but come on! He IS a CHILD!

I go a step further. I think it is WRONG to even have him in a juvenile detention center. He is EIGHT!! A eight year old boy needs his mother.. they still sleep with teddy bears. He is messed up. Why mess him up further? He needs his MOTHER and psycolgical HELP.

[QUOTE=liz28;1386496Even Judge Alex agreed.[/QUOTE]



Who is Judge Alex? I've been following this case - hot legal topic, obviously - and have seen no mention of a Judge Alex. I thought there hadn't been an arraignment and so far no Judge is involved.

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Originally Posted by classyT

I go a step further. I think it is WRONG to even have him in a juvenile detention center. He is EIGHT!!! A eight year old boy needs his mother..they still sleep with teddy bears. He is messed up. Why mess him up further? He needs his MOTHER and psycolgical HELP.

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Has anyone read why the mother didn't have custody?

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Who is Judge Alex? I've been following this case - hot legal topic, obviously - and have seen no mention of a Judge Alex. I thought there hadn't been an arraignment and so far no Judge is involved.

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If you reread my post I was quoting comments made by people. Today on the today show they had 2 t.v. judges on the show, one of them being Judge Alex and the other one name was Judge Jeanine Pirro, and they both was giving their input on the case. Never said it was a judge from an arriagement.

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Originally Posted by liz28

If you reread my post I was quoting comments made by people. Today on the today show they had 2 t.v. judges on the show, one of them being Judge Alex and the other one name was Judge Jeanine Pirro, and they both was giving their input on the case. Never said it was a judge from an arriagement.

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And if you re-read my post, who is Judge Alex and why is he commenting on this? Judge Jeanine Pirro I know. She's an authority, has been in the Courts for years and years, has an excellent Bar Association rating.

You said, "Even Judge Alex agrees." That's not a quote and I have no idea who he is or what makes him an authority.

Judge Alex is an judge that comes on t.v. like Judge Pirro. I forgot his last name but he comes on channel 5 everyday for at least the last 2 years. This morning while both of them was on the show he did most of the talking while Judge Pirro agreed. So she agreed to what he had to say and even added to it. And again they both was commenting on the case like everyone else accept they were giving their legal point of view. He is a judge so he is of authority.

Hello again:

Judge Alex Ferrer, I think.

For ALL the reasons you guys have cited, plus many more, the cops have screwed up their investigation sooooo badly, that the only thing left to do, IS charge him as a juvenile. The confession will be thrown out. They'll NEVER convict him as an adult.

I guess that's good. But, I'd rather they treated him as a juvenile because he is, not because they screwed up.

excon

Judy, since you stated you don't know who he is, here is some information about his from his website.
Meet Judge Alex
Former police officer, attorney and Florida Circuit Court Judge Alex E. Ferrer hosts "Judge Alex," the new court room strip from Twentieth Television that will make its launch in first-run national syndication on September 12, 2005. The first new court show in four years, the half-hour strip features Judge Alex, the only television judge with extensive police, legal and judicial experience, presiding over a wide array of cases, resolving complicated issues with his straight forward approach and cogent rulings.

Most recently, Judge Alex served as the Associate Administrative Judge of the Criminal Division of Florida’s Eleventh Judicial Circuit, which services Miami-Dade County, the largest trial court in the state and fourth largest in the United States.

Born in Havana, Cuba, Judge Alex and his family escaped from Fidel Castro’s Communist regime to America when he was one year old. Growing up in Miami with a passionate interest in law enforcement, at 19 he joined the Coral Gables Police Department, making him one of the youngest officers in the state. While on the police force, he served as a patrolman, detective and in an undercover capacity. He was also trained to be on the department’s SWAT force. Intent on building a career in the legal profession, Judge Alex performed his duties as a police officer while attending both college and law school.

Judge Alex received his Juris Doctorate degree from the University of Miami School of Law, where he became a published member of its Law Review. He previously served as Judicial Director of the university’s Alumni Association. Upon receiving his degree, Judge Alex practiced law in Miami, focusing on civil litigation, including hundreds of suits involving medical malpractice, wrongful deaths, personal injuries and commercial business disputes. After becoming an attorney, and to further embolden his commitment to law and order, Judge Alex served as a volunteer reserve police officer in the Miami suburb of Homestead. But the experience of law enforcement and legal representation were only stepping stones in his dream of reaching for higher aspirations in the U.S.

In 1995, at the age of 34, he was elected judge, making him the youngest Circuit Court Judge in the Eleventh Judicial Circuit, where he was a Family and Criminal division judge for the past ten years. Throughout his high-profile tenure on the bench, he handled thousands of cases, ranging from first degree murders involving the death penalty, drug related offenses, RICO conspiracy indictments, kidnappings and armed robberies to child custody and support issues, general financial matters, adoptions and paternity suits. Judge Alex also presided as an appellate judge over appeals from the
Miami-Dade County Court, County Commission and numerous other governmental bodies. In 1999, his peers elected him as their District Representative to the Executive Committee of the Conference of Circuit Court Judges, a role he held until 2001; and he served on the Conference’s Legislative Subcommittee from 2003 to 2005. Moreover, Judge Alex was selected by the Judicial Nominating Commission as a finalist for a vacant seat in Florida’s high-profile Third District Court of Appeal.

Judge Alex is a member of the Florida and District of Columbia Bars, and has served as an adjunct professor at Florida International University, teaching graduate courses in criminal law and procedure. He teaches media relations and closing arguments to other judges at judicial conferences held throughout the year, as well as at the New Judges College and the College of Advanced Judicial Studies. Judge Alex has also authored a "bench book" on closing arguments that is used by judges throughout Florida and is regularly interviewed by media to provide expert opinions on a number of legal issues.

Judge Alex resides in Miami with his wife and their two children. A licensed pilot, his interests also include scuba diving, sculpting, golf, music and running marathons.

"Judge Alex" is exclusively distributed throughout the U.S. by Twentieth Television and executive produced by Michelle Mazur, Burt Wheeler and Sharon Sussman.

JudgeAlex.com - Official Site for Judge Alex

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Originally Posted by liz28

Judge Alex is an judge that comes on t.v. like Judge Pirro. I forgot his last name but he comes on channel 5 everyday for at least the last 2 years. This morning while both of them was on the show he did most of the talking while Judge Pirro agreed. So she agreed to what he had to say and even added to it. And again they both was commenting on the case like everyone else accept they was giving their legal point of view. He is a judge so he is of authority.

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All right, I looked him up. He's the "star" of a TV talk show.

I don't know about "... he is of authority." He's not an active Judge anywhere nor is he in private practice but he certainly has legal experience and the necessary background and degree. I obviously don't watch a lot of TV.

You've quoted your Attorney friends in the past - what do they say about this case?

Excon, do you think the jury will be tinted especially since the tape is out?

Hello liz:

If they try him as an adult, he'll be eligible for a change of venue because of the tape, and the small town... But, I can't imagine that he could get a fair trial ANYWHERE because of the tape.

I hope they come to their senses and treat him like a kid...

What? Did I say that I hope the cops come to their senses?? I musta been smoking something... Bwa, ha ha ha.

excon