So glutting the education system with kids who might not want to be there is a good thing??

Again... I taught at a univ in classes that had some kids there who were just taking up air. And the ones who were academically weak were just set up to fail... they didn't have the tools to succeed in that environment.

Believe me... I think we have some serious issues with our ed system, and that trickles all along into our economy.

But I don't think a guaranteed ed is the way to go when higher ed institutions are already straining over the cost of increasing tech.

I don't know...

I understand the spirit. I think people who crave and desire a higher education should get it... and have that opportunity today. It might take time. It might take work. What the hell is wrong with that?

I just think one more massive govt funded handout is going to lose so many dollars to waste... and I know that our ed system, as is, simply cannot handle a massive influx of students.

Lets talk about other areas... better technical skill training or entrepreneurial , for ex. But I just think earning a degree and paying back for that ed isn't too much to ask in most cases.

Hello again:

Although this is kind of a round robin discussion we need to make certain distinctions.

I agree, absolutely, that the state of our Universities is dismal. There ARE people floating and looking for a free ride. And they graduate thinking the same.

But that's bad management, pure and simple. It has NOTHING to do with the way the education is paid for. Clearly, there are schools where THAT doesn't happen, and the graduates ARE prepared. In terms of quality, funding doesn't matter.

Of course, you do realize that I'm not talking about the PUBLICLY funded universities. I'm talking about the damn expensive private ones. Seems to me, City College of New York turns out very good people - for free..

excon

see... it think it does tie into money.

when I told my mother I needed an extra year to pick up an extra major, I saw that worried look in her eyes... it meant more loans.

now you might think having a free ed would have enabled me to do with without stress... but the financial burden made me make good, sound choices about my ed. I picked up that "extra" major because I had statistics that showed it would increase my employment opportunities and my earning power right out of the gate.

OK... let me work in your context... you get a free education... are you willing to earn reduced wages for x number of years until the govt is paid back?

ungh.. see... I just can't do it. Its more red tape. More big gov. more dollars passing though more sticky hands.

so... knowing that our current ed system cannot handle a 10% increase in students today (there isn't the housing, nor the lecture rooms available) how do we do this?

not only are you going to pay for the service of education, but you are talking about major infrastructure and tech burdens on universities.

unless we want to go more virtual, online ed... I just see this as a huge expense that goes well beyond the degree. Universities struggle with mortar and bricks, computer labs, resources, bodies to teach... its just not as simple as saying pay for the ed...

And in my area, the hard sciences, we had a new building built that, within three years, was beyond capacity... we had 20-21 students in labs that should have had 16-18 for safety reasons...

We had classrooms being fought over because there wasn't enough space.

Infrastructure and overhead are real issues for universities and colleges, even when demand is high.

And more to add... personally, I quit teaching because there were too many students. The costs were so high that theyd just try to cram more students into less space, meaning more tuition dollars for the univ, but more work for me and more stress in the college at no increase in pay. You CANNOT teach 200 students the same way you teach 40. Period.

Result? A good teacher (I think I'm modest enough) said to hell with it... it wasn't worth the strain nor the financial burden. I worked nights and weekends to try to run the class the best way for students to learn. Result? I had to diminish the quality of education for higher numbers, or I had to take hours and hours away from family life. it sucked rocks. So I quit. Went to industry.

So I'm biased. Ill admit that.

Shoving more students into the system, in my experience, was terrible for "good" teaching... and that was just a modest increase.

If you are willing to pay for kids ed, you'd better find a way to pay for the infrastructure, the tech, and find a way to pay for quality teachers... because industry, which relies on competition, paid so much better than ed.

They should cut down on students. Harder entry requirements, harder/actually have entrance tests , harder courses. There is too much dead wood that showed up because their parents could afford it and it seemed like an easier path than work.

I agree temp.

And if those parents who previously could afford it can no longer.

It's all just absurd.

There is a way that this could be done. As Temp states - Stricter requriements - would be a must.

To keep things the way that is is currently, those who will be unable to go to college
Might as well bag high school. Why bother? ( I don't really mean that) But a HS degree is not worth a thing these days.

I pay approx $4,000.00 annually for school tax. It supposed to be one of the best school systems and the only kiddies I have are 4 foot, and I don't mind paying it one bit, if it will benenfit this generation.

Kids should not have to work many hours while going to college. I had to work during high school and didn't mind it one bit, but of course my studies were effected. I was plum tired.

We need to at least take a look at the current way and consider alternate ways. No one can convince me that kid, with the will, motivation grades, should be denied a higher education.

Trust me, we have so much waste in this country, that money could be found in no time.

Our system works good. If you want a higher education you work hard for it at high school. You gain entry into a course of your selection only if your marks warrant it. If you want to be a doctor and earn big buck when you graduate then you have to earn it through hard work prior to going to uni. If you work hard enough and get in then the government will assist you. They will pay for your degree. But when you graduate and start earning enough money then you pay them back gradually.

They'll even assist you to live while you're a full time student through weekly payments.

If you want to go back and study some more, they won't pay for it. By then its up to you to foot the bill, or get someone else to foot it for you (scholarship, employer etc.)

It seems to work well. The people who want to go to Uni can. No matter what background they come from. And just cause your rich doesn't mean its your right to go to law school. You have to earn it.

Doesn't that make sense? It appears to me that your entry requirements are simply inadeqaute and reward the rich and not the hard workers? Am I wrong?

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

I heard Obama say that he wants to provide free college to every American. I think it's a terrible idea. He would spend gadzillions of our money, and when everyone has a college degree, those grads will be flippin burgers and hanging onto garbage trucks. We will have come full circle and wasted who knows how much money. Socialism doesn't work very well.

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I want to live in a free municipality. I have a right to free natural gas for heating, electricity for heating water and cooking, garbage pick-up for the ecosystem, free fire department because it's not fair to have my house burn down, free education for my kids because it's not fair for them to grow-up prejudiced and vote against Obama or Hillary.

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Originally Posted by Skell

Our system works good. If you want a higher education you work hard for it at high school. You gain entry into a course of your selection only if your marks warrant it. If you want to be a doctor and earn big buck when you graduate then you have to earn it through hard work prior to going to uni. If you work hard enough and get in then the governement will assist you. They will pay for your degree. But when you graduate and start earning enough money then you pay them back gradually.

They'll even assist you to live while your a full time student through weekly payments.

If you want to go back and study some more, they wont pay for it. By then its up to you to foot the bill, or get someone else to foot it for you (scholarship, employer etc.)

It seems to work well. The people who want to go to Uni can. No matter what background they come from. And just cause your rich doesnt mean its your right to go to law school. You have to earn it.

Doesnt that make sense? It appears to me that your entry requirements are simply inadeqaute and reward the rich and not the hard workers? Am i wrong?

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Hello Skell :D

I LOVE your system. If we could only tweek ours to be similar to yours.

Mm... Not really reward the rich. There are those yes,. but there are those that work their tail off academically and also to pay for college... It's a mixed bag. But there are still those that just can't afford it and may never get the chance

The cost of college here is repulsive. And now a 4 year degree is becoming so common place that the kids now need to go on and have a masters. But a good bit work while going for their masters.

Some very fortunate kids are professional students. I say good for them, if they are able to do it. I don't have a problem with that at all. I just like as many obstacles removed from preventing anyone from going to college.

"free education will prevent your kids from growing up prejudiced"?. same planet. Different worlds.

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Originally Posted by kp2171

"free education will prevent your kids from growing up prejudiced"?... same planet. different worlds.

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I would hope. I just want all to have the same oppurtunites. If a child is gifted, how sad it is to have that wasted due to circumstances.

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Originally Posted by George_1950

I want to live in a free municipality. I have a right to free natural gas for heating, electricity for heating water and cooking, garbage pick-up for the ecosystem, free fire department because it's not fair to have my house burn down, free education for my kids because it's not fair for them to grow-up prejudiced and vote against Obama or Hillary.

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The difference is though that free education can be seen as an investment. Giving you free power and gas isn't.
Although I don't fully agree with 100% free education I think its critical that governments inject as much money as possible into it.

The cost of college ed goes up about twice the rate of inflation... so it's a real long term issue.

But one that's easier to talk about than medicare/medicaid or social security. One in four workers pay for one recipient in ssi today... how's that going to work out in a couple of decades?

Neither party, dems or reps, have the guts to face issues that are real and fiscally important. Most is smoke and mirrors. The gop has lost its soul in reckless spending and the war, and the dems talk a great talk, but promises of everything to all just isn't going to cut it.

Time to suck it up and wade through some tough times, for both sides of the aisle.

free education = no prejudice?

hmmm... guess what? We have "free" ed... its called public HS.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

I would hope. I just want all to have the same oppurtunites. If a child is gifted, how sad it is to have that wasted due to circumstances.

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Exactly. A gifted poor child should have more chance to shine than a dumb rich kid. Is that not the case at present in the US? From what I read it isn't and that's sad!

Funny about education: what is wrong with education is that it is "free"; the fox is in charge of the henhouse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skell

Exactly. A gifted poor child should have more chance to shine than a dumb rich kid. Is that not the case at present in the US? From what i read it isnt and thats sad!

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Not always Skell,

The rich don't have to struggle as much and they do have to meet the criteria as any student. Those who can not afford it as easily as the rich, take out student loans and work while in school and parents take out loans against their homes.

Then there are those - that simply have no means at all.

I don't see why anyone would have heartburn with giving as much assistance as possible.

I'm all for loans and grants based on real need and honest merit.

More than happy to have kids who are academically fit have the means to go on to college.

But a blanket "free ride" is an election year move. I expect more from mr obama than promises that are fiscally dumb and, honestly, very difficult to implement at the college level.

Trust me... I loved teaching. Was good at it. But throwing tons of new bodies into the mix is not the way to get better, high quality ed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Allheart

Not always Skell,

The rich don't have to struggle as much and they do have to meet the criteria as any student. Those who can not afford it as easily as the rich, take out student loans and work while in school and parents take out loans agains their homes.

Then there are those - that simply have no means at all.

I don't see why anyone would have heartburn with giving as much assistance as possible.

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Ok thanks for clearing that up Allheart. :D

And I agree. As much assistance as possible should be given to those wanting to better themselves and the country. I don't see how anyone could disagree with that either.

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Originally Posted by kp2171

im all for loans and grants based on real need and honest merit.

more than happy to have kids who are academically fit have the means to go on to college.

but a blanket "free ride" is an election year move. i expect more from mr obama than promises that are fiscally dumb and, honestly, very difficult to implement at the college level.

trust me... i loved teaching. was good at it. but throwing tons of new bodies into the mix is not the way to get better, high quality ed.

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I do trust you. It can be worked out. Those "new" bodies shouldn't just become non important.

If a team was put together to brainstorm on this and cared enough to come up with a workable solution, it could be done. It's not that difficult.

Extend high school for two years... call it Advanced Education. Do it in terms. We mangage to school them from age 6 to 17/18 - We can't handle a couple more years?

Our kids are too valuable and deserve to have the oppurtunity... not hand out.. opportunity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kp2171

im all for loans and grants based on real need and honest merit.

more than happy to have kids who are academically fit have the means to go on to college.

but a blanket "free ride" is an election year move. i expect more from mr obama than promises that are fiscally dumb and, honestly, very difficult to implement at the college level.

trust me... i loved teaching. was good at it. but throwing tons of new bodies into the mix is not the way to get better, high quality ed.

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Agree. To me, and if that's what is actually been promised, a blanket free ride appears nothing more than a political stunt and I don't see any benefit.

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Originally Posted by Skell

Ok thanks for clearing that up Allheart. :D

And i agree. As much assistance as possible should be given to those wanting to better themselves and the country. I dont see how anyone could disagree with that either.

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Thank you. Once again... I'm just not getting it.

How about if you don't earn your entry to university through high school and can give reason why not other than just not having good crack at it, then you get a second chance to gain entry. Do a bridging course. Do your final year at high school again. Prove that you deserve entry, prove that you deserve assistance. If you still can't then its off to flipping burgers.

University to me is an earned priveledge. Earned through hard work. Not a paid priveledge.

I Think It Is A Great Idea I Am 22 Years Old And To Get Free Pelgrants They Won't Give Me Enough To Even Pay My Way. They Want to Go By My Parents Income And My Stepdad. I Called Fasfa They Said It Was Because Parents Are Supposed To Pay For The Kids College For Six Years. Unless I Get Knocked Up Or Married. Sorry I Don't Think I Should Have To Pop Out A Baby Or Get Married To Some Jerk To Go To College... that Is So Wrong So I Got One More Year And I Am 24 And I Can Just Claim Myself And Get Money For My College. Yes I Think It Is A Great Idea To Give People Who Can't Afford It Free College. And Those Who Have Tons Of Money Should Pay!

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Originally Posted by topladyj

I Think It Is A Great Idea I Am 22 Years Old And To Get Free Pelgrants They Wont Give Me Enough To Even Pay My Way. They Wanna Go By My Parents Income And My Stepdad. I Called Fasfa They Said It Was Because Parents Are Suposed To Pay For The Kids College For Six Years. Unless I Get Knocked Up Or Married. Sorry I Don't Think I Should Have To Pop Out A Baby Or Get Married To Some Jerk To Go To College......that Is So Wrong So I Got One More Year And I Am 24 And I Can Just Claim Myself And Get Money For My College. Yes I Think It Is A Great Idea To Give People Who Can't Afford It Free College. And Those Who Have Tons Of Money Should Pay!

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Can you feel this young ladies desire to go to college. Can you hear the frustration.
This should not be.

I'm with Skell - Work hard... earn it. Nothing handed to anyone. On sheer merit.
Toplady - Don't you give up. See if you can get a job that will at least pay partial, some may pay all.

But chin up girl... the best things achieved are those that we struggled for but successfully
Did :)

Robert Heinlien used to say in his novels that democracies failed when the masses realized they could vote themselves largesse .lets make food free too while we are at it.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Robert Heinlien used to say in his novels that democracies failed when the masses realized they could vote themselves largesse .lets make food free too while we are at it.

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Tom my friend... food ultimately turns into... waste.

Educating a child to his or her highest potential will result in a higher investment with far greater returns.

This is not just a feel good cause. I think it is the right of the child, who puts forth the effort, to be able to obtain a higher education.

If it is worth it to them then they should gladly take on the debt .

Education is NOT a right . The right to a "free education" is the same as the right to take from someone's wallet or purse what is not yours. If it is a right then lets make it compulsory like we do for K-12 . Everyone has to delay their adulthood for 4 more years and be warehoused by the government in state sponsored institutes of higher learning . And let's mandate what they learn while we are at it. Why not ? We are paying for it.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

if it is worth it to them then they should gladly take on the debt .

Education is NOT a right . The right to a "free education" is the same as the right to take from someones wallet or purse what is not yours. If it is a right then lets make it compulsory like we do for K-12 . Everyone has to delay their adulthood for 4 more years and be warehoused by the government in state sponsored institutes of higher learning . And let's mandate what they learn while we are at it. Why not ? We are paying for it.

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Then why not make parents pay from K - 12. Heck I don't have children. Why should I pay taxes to support their education then. (mind you, I am glad that a portion of my taxes go for something beneficial )

Boy Tom, when you have a view you stick to your guns there... even when I'm right :p

I would be PROUD of us if we invested in our children that way. Tom, you, yourself are a brilliant man. If someone offered you a challenge, to come up with a plan that all children who meet the quals... are able to go to college... without prejudice to the ability to pay... I bet you could come up with one. And one that would work.

I think before we talk about free money for college we need to address where we are today. Our country is borrowing money hand over fist from foreign nations.

Wait a year or two and see how the credit crunch is going to restrict loans for college. The problem is, nobody wants to pay the toll. Why in the world are we staving off a recession? Its called a correction. Its needed, necessary, and most certainly NOT solved by borrowing foreign cash.

I'm not a bleeding heart, and I'm not stone hearted. I think there are social services that are worth tapping into my check, and I think there are some things that are just another product of the nanny state.

Most presidents get a couple of big items at most to tackle in one term... and whomever is elected, if they have any concern for the future, needs to deal with some of the issues I talked about... esp health care costs in the next few decades and basic fiscal responsibility.

But promising 2K to every child born, or free ed for all... its just social pandering.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

I heard Obama say that he wants to provide free college to every American. I think it's a terrible idea. He would spend gadzillions of our money, and when everyone has a college degree, those grads will be flippin burgers and hanging onto garbage trucks. We will have come full circle and wasted who knows how much money. Socialism doesn't work very well.

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I know it's easier to hang onto the old stale politics as usual. You heard only in-part; they would have to give some civil community service time in return. But to answer your question, with a question, Social U.S. or Social Iraq? I'd certainly rather use money toward the educational purposes of our children's future, than the $9,000,000,000 a month in Iraq.

It's impossible. It's just all campaign hogwash. They are all full of sh1t. Do you actually believe any of them? Do you think maybe the private bankers that collect our federal income tax will start kicking down for education? Excuse me, I need to lay down on the floor. I'm getting cramps from laughing so hard.

I agree FREE college for everyone might not be the greatest idea for our society. But just to play the devil's advocate, college isn't for everyone. I know plenty of people who could go to college. But they've made the chocie not to. Some of them have found other jobs and are happy enough they don't feel the need to earn a degree for something different. Others hated high school and say there's no way they'll ever step foot in another classroom. And think about out of all of the people who did go to college, they would have so many more opportunities. If you were given a great education and worked for years for your masters in chemistry or art history or whatever you can think of, would you really just be like "k, i worked my butt off all that time. i'm gonna go flip some burgers now."? I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

to come up with a plan that all children who meet the quals....are able to go to college ...without prejudice to the ability to pay...I bet you could come up with one. And one that would work.

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I like the idea of, say, two years of national service in an organized effort to accomplish some purpose for the betterment of this country. I don't believe every student in high school is headed for college. For those who do not go, there should be other plans in place for them, such as job shadowing, vocational training, paid and unpaid internships, and the military--all of which would give students career opportunities and the chance to earn a living wage. There would even be a plan for those who aren't interested in partaking of any of the above and who would rather choose a "easy" life of crime.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I like the idea of, say, two years of national service in an organized effort to accomplish some purpose for the betterment of this country. I don't believe every student in high school is headed for college. For those who do not go, there should be other plans in place for them, such as job shadowing, vocational training, paid and unpaid internships, and the military--all of which would give students career opportunities and the chance to earn a living wage. There would even be a plan for those who aren't interested in partaking of any of the above and who would rather choose a "easy" life of crime.

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Beautiful ideas Wondergirl.

With the amount of money spent by the Gov't in the months of June through Sept (end of FY). That has to be spent otherwise agencies loose the money for that FY and receive that much less the following FY - is enough to fund college for everyone two times over.

I was one of those that received my High School degree and said thank you very much, and may I never see another classroom again. We do exsist.

I am addressing the issue and not the canadate proposing it. I have always felt every child should have the opportunity to attend college.

I do not have children and never will, so this doesn't even effect me directly, but it still is something I feel very strong in.

It is not the fault of a child born into a home where funding is limited just as it is not the fault of the child born into a wealthy home. God bless them and I am thrilled for them that they have opportunities such as they do. I sincerely mean that. It kills me when someone snubs their nose at someone because "they were born with a silver spoon in their mouth". God bless them and that's one less child we need to worry about.

This is not about rich vs poor. It's about our children having equal opportunity.

Here in the U.K. children leave school at 16 and can then go on to college and that is free for every school leaver.
The government now want to make children stay on at school till 18 which in my opinion is a good idea.
College should be free for evryone

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Originally Posted by nicki143

Here in the U.K. children leave school at 16 and can then go on to college and that is free for every school leaver.
The goverment now want to make children stay on at school till 18 which in my opinion is a good idea.
College should be free for evryone

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Nicki that is wondeful!!

It can be done! :)

Before we spend more of our money to give "free "education to college students I would prefer that our "free" education system would actually graduate literate students. All our tax money thrown at that problem has not generated satisfactory results. Throughout this country public school systems complain about underfunding (they are wrong.. but that is a different debate ) ,but here we have these panderers telling the gullible how they are going to give them other freebees. Free college... free health care... bread and circus .

Hi Tom,

It's the issue I support - not focusing on the canadate. I say we reroute some of that wasteful spending focus it on our education system, let's fix it and consider options in ensuring all those who wish to attend higher eductation have the ability to.

Let's give it a try. Put a pilot Program in place. I think it's worth it. And it be a darn good thing for us to do.

But I think you and I will never meet on this :(, but I still respect you immensley.