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Originally Posted by paraclete

As a "fundie" I've never been really sure what "evangelical" means. You can't couple the word traditional with evangelical, that word belongs to institutional religion

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Evangelicals are those whose mission in life is Matthew 28:19.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Evangelicals are those whose mission in life is Matthew 28:19.

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My mission as a fundamentalist is to follow Jesus' instructions, I don't need another tag

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Originally Posted by paraclete

My mission as a fundamentalist is to follow Jesus' instructions, I don't need another tag

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This probably should be on a religion board.

My understanding of fundamentalist is someone who believes the Bible is literal, written by God, and inerrant. Evangelicals are those who preach/proselytize for Christianity. The two approaches have similarities and differences.

In the current context, it has been pretty well established that much of Trump's core support comes from the fundamentalist/evangelical crowd. The surprise is that Trump's personal behavior is so lacking in Christian values that it's difficult to fathom the WHY of that support.

One reason, probably the primary one, is the nature of the religion. Like all primitive religions, it keys on belief rather than on behavior. This leads to excusing Trump's behavior and allowing the devotee to vote his or her single issue - usually abortion.

A secondary reason is a bizarre one. Like Trump, they support Israel, not as a right, however controversial, to be a nation, but since they believe the Jews will ultimately be eliminated as Jews upon their conversion at the last days. The Israelis are well aware of this odd belief but they put up with it as the price of the support.

Let me add that modern Christianity has placed behavior to be the sign of belief. From the Hebrew prophets to the Christian Christ and forward, social justice has been the hallmark of the mature faith.

You need to make up your mind whether the faith is primitive or mature, Tal. I can understand why Christians would be reluctant to support someone like Clinton, so Trump became the problem of not enough choice. People get upset about things they see as impositions so Obamacare would be an issue, and Trump offered the promise of disentanglement and the promise of solving the immigration problem. Social justice is a relative term, personal circumstance demands social justice, but the further away the problem the more it is the hands of God.

You need to separate humanism from belief. It is an issue that has entangled the whole spectrum

I don't have to do anything about any religious notions. Stamp a big 0 on your forehead and chant and rant all you want to. Not on my dime, or time, or in my front yard.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I don't have to do anything about any religious notions. Stamp a big 0 on your forehead and chant and rant all you want to. Not on my dime, or time, or in my front yard.

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Fine Tal but remember your nation was founded on religious notions

I am familiar with those religious notions. Holier than thou is but a cover to justify labeling the natives as primitive, conquering them, and forcing them to assimilate to YOUR religious notions. Even you must admit that though you don't call it manifest destiny, the results are still the same. All of this because of somebody's religious notions? Like it confers some sort of superiority because god is on your side.

What does that even have to do with a natural disaster, and the people who went through it? Has everyone forgotten the storm IRMA two weeks before?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/weath...er/1078930001/

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Fine Tal but remember your nation was founded on religious notions

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Wrong, again.

The US was founded very specifically on notions that PREVENTED religion from being a foundation stone. It is spelled out most clearly in the very FIRST Amendment to the Constitution.

You may be referring to the "Pilgrim Fathers". If so, wrong again! Their notion of religion was actually anti-religious. If you did not adhere to their religious beliefs, you were ostracized, banished, or otherwise demeaned. Freedom of religion was a concept they were totally against.

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Originally Posted by Athos

Wrong, again.

The US was founded very specifically on notions that PREVENTED religion from being a foundation stone. It is spelled out most clearly in the very FIRST Amendment to the Constitution.

You may be referring to the "Pilgrim Fathers". If so, wrong again! Their notion of religion was actually anti-religious. If you did not adhere to their religious beliefs, you were ostracized, banished, or otherwise demeaned. Freedom of religion was a concept they were totally against.

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Perfect!!! You said it so much better than I could have. From my experience, the last thing on any organized religion's list is tolerance. Thank goodness the Founding Fathers used their brains and set it up so the US wouldn't ever be a theocracy.

You completely misconstrued what I said

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Originally Posted by paraclete

You completely misconstrued what I said

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How so? Please explain.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

How so? Please explain.

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What I meant was that Christian values went into framing the Declaration and the Constitution. The very idea of equality. Your pilgrims fled religious persecution and ensured over generations that the imposition of a state religion was unacceptable

UPDATE

The 4,000+ death toll from Hurricane Maria is now considered to be invalid based on faulty methodology by the Harvard Group. The number may yet prove accurate but not based on the examined parameters.

However, seven other studies, including by the Puerto Rican government, all have the death toll hovering around 1,000 - a far cry from Trump's 64.

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Originally Posted by Athos

UPDATE

The 4,000+ death toll from Hurricane Maria is now considered to be invalid based on faulty methodology by the Harvard Group. The number may yet prove accurate but not based on the examined parameters.

However, seven other studies, including by the Puerto Rican government, all have the death toll hovering around 1,000 - a far cry from Trump's 64.

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Look all this is playing with statistics, confidence intervals and like climate change, computer modelling, and population sampling, not an actual count. The additional deaths during the 2017 hurricane season ranges from 500 to 1400 depending upon which months you include in the data. Trump might be right 64 died on the day, maybe 1,400 died over three months and maybe those deaths were hurricane related. Who you going to believe? The real issue is that serious problems like power supply have not been resolved. Someone is laying down on the job

The official estimate was made by the Puerto Rico Dept of Public Safety ;not the Trump adm.


The first amendment guarantees the free exercise of Religion and prohibits the formation of a state religion. I wouldn't call that preventing religion from being a founding stone. .. There were many influences on the founders and one of the biggest was Christianity . It is not in the 1st amendment where you find prevention of religion ,but in the Article VI prohibition of religious tests for fedreral office. The founders were creating a limited government and there was nothing in the Constitution preventing states and local government fromhave established religions. Some of them did .

The last state church was disestablished in 1832,

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Originally Posted by tomder55

The official estimate was made by the Puerto Rico Dept of Public Safety ;not the Trump adm.


The first amendment guarantees the free exercise of Religion and prohibits the formation of a state religion. I wouldn't call that preventing religion from being a founding stone. .. There were many influences on the founders and one of the biggest was Christianity . It is not in the 1st amendment where you find prevention of religion ,but in the Article VI prohibition of religious tests for fedreral office. The founders were creating a limited government and there was nothing in the Constitution preventing states and local government fromhave established religions. Some of them did .

The last state church was disestablished in 1832,

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Trump quoted the 64 number - more than once.

Religion - You're seeing the trees but missing the forest.

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Originally Posted by Athos

Trump quoted the 64 number - more than once.

Religion - You're seeing the trees but missing the forest.

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Trump says a lot of things, whether they are facts or not I'll leave to you

Actually I'm standing in a clearing wondering what I did with my chainsaw

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Religion - You're seeing the trees but missing the forest.

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Nope The closest thing that supports the argument that "The US was founded very specifically on notions that PREVENTED religion from being a foundation stone" can be found in Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists .That happened in 1802 ;15 years after ratification .Jefferson was not even in the country when the Constitution was negotiated and ratified .He was in France. His 'wall of separation ' is a distortion at best of the framer's intent .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Nope The closest thing that supports the argument that "The US was founded very specifically on notions that PREVENTED religion from being a foundation stone" can be found in Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists .That happened in 1802 ;15 years after ratification .Jefferson was not even in the country when the Constitution was negotiated and ratified .He was in France. His 'wall of separation ' is a distortion at best of the framer's intent .

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Jefferson? You mean the slave holder who raped his slave while writing "All men are created equal"? That Jefferson?

You continue to miss the big picture.

yes that Jefferson ;who was also the one who took a copy of the Bible and cut out any reference to God . He was America's first lefty .