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Originally Posted by tomder55

I say India should take Afghanistan. The Pakis interest in the region is a fall back area when the Indians kick their a$$ .

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Are you totally nuts? This demonstrates the lack of american understanding of the issues.

Afghanistan is an islamic nation, they are only intereted in a relationship with India as a bullwark against Pakistan. Pakistan has a large and aggressive military and a little problem with the Pastun population many of whom live in Afghanistan. They would be better off redrawing the border and handing the tribal areas to Afghanistan.The taliban are a construct of Pakistan and aggressive US foreign policy and it bit them on the bum. In a war with India you would find that Afghanistan would side with Pakistan, there is nothing muslims love more than a good holy war.

What's going on with the Ugyhar population in Sinkang has no bearing on the Pakistan/India thing

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The taliban are a construct of Pakistan and aggressive US foreign policy and it bit them on the bum.

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BS the US had zero involvement in the formation of the Taliban.

Also I never mentioned the Ugyhars . They are resistance fighters against Chinese brutal aggression. I'll say it again . The ONLY reason Pakistan has an interest in Afghanistan is in the broader context of the Indian -Pakistan tensions.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

BS the US had zero involvement in the formation of the Taliban.

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You facilitated it in your proxy war against the Russians in Afghanistan

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Also I never mentioned the Ugyhars . They are resistance fighters against Chinese brutal aggression.

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Yes an ethnic minority in a region being increasingly populated by Han Chinese

Look Tom no one likes their terrirory being taken over by another ethnic group and nowhere is there a level playing field. You like to criticise the Chinese but your own record with minorities is not that good. Just because you had an epiphany in the latter half of the twentieth century doesn't mean everyone is held to your "high" standard. In fact whenever you sceam about the Chinese I wonder what you are covering at home. The "look over there" tactic is well known

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I'll say it again . The ONLY reason Pakistan has an interest in Afghanistan is in the broader context of the Indian -Pakistan tensions.

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I'll say it again, should I use large type. Pakistan and Afghanistan share common ethnic and religious populations, there is far more than just India involved here. There is a lot of history of various empires and civilizations. The Hindus of India were very glad to get out from under the Muslim thumb but the only real conflict they have now is Kashmir which once again has strong religious overtones. The foolishness of the British is that they didn't hand the thing over as a whole and let the locals sort it out. Everywhere the British were involved in this partition crap has left a smouldering trouble spot

I don't know what Tal means, he definitely don't know about Indian sub-continent. India is very active in afgan. Almost equally as US but not on military level. India invested 100$billion for infrastructure. Giving their police and forces training. Afagn people are extremely difficult to handle. They are divided into many groups which are mostly aggressive. But Pak is in quite self destructive mode. Problem is Pak is run by army and ISI , democracy is a mask. There is parallel government.

smkanand , correct . India has been involved in Afghanstan for some time now . Clete thinks because some of the tribes cross borders ,and they share a religion ,that they are somehow joined at the hip with Pakistan . This is nonsense. The Pakis incursions into the Waziristan regions hardly illustrate a unity . And the Pashtun incursions into Pakistan pose as much a threat to the Pakistan government as it does to the Afghan.
The Taliban may indeed dominate in the future with the help of the ISI ,but they will never fully control the country . They ruled the country in the 1990s . But there were large sections of Tajik, Uzbeks, Hazaras areas they never controlled. Clete seems to think the whole country is Pashtun.But the news to him is that even in the Pashtun community there is no love for the Taliban. They are indeed ISI proxies. The last time they took control of the country ,the world slept until it was too late. This time will be different . Regardless of how many irregulars the Pakis send in to bolster the ranks of the Taliban ,the world ,and specifically the nations that surround Afghanistan remember what the consequences of a Taliban controlled Afghanistan means.
And as I recall ,India gave substantial support to the Northern Alliance. It is also true that at least since 2002 ,Indian companies like Sanjay Gupta's C&C Construction have been active in infrastructure projects in the country.

Tom no one denys that India are savvy business men and well capable of exploiting a siutation. The Indians have their own reasons for destabilising Pakistan. No I don't think the Afghans are all Pastun That population straddles the border between the two countries and there are large numbers in Pakistan. If Khan gains the ascendency you will see what the Pastuns might be able to do to bring unity and an end to internal fighting in Pakistan. I still contend the US has destabilised the whole area with their phony war on terror. They ousted the Taliban then did nothing, another "Mission accomplished" for GWB. You see what right wing B/S breeds

Yes, not all the afgani people support taliban. This hardcore extremism is part of pakistani ideology and saudi support to it. Some afgan groups have positive approach. Before partition, afgan was part of India and a great pashtu leader khan abdul gaffar khan was highly influenced by nonviolence methods of Gandhi. That legacy has to restored in the region for betterment. So afgan-india relations are quite different from afgan-pak ties. Fact is if you see history of this area no one ever in the world win afgan. Reasons are many including geographic.

Clete I get it . In your view the United States is the root of all evil.

Self appointed for profit cops are hardly the way to popularity in the world.

We went to Iraq for the oil, right? What profit were we going after in Afghanistan?

Sooner or later US has to leave afgan that's confirm but that's not going to change anything expect those who hates US, might change some views. I don't think US is cause of terror in particularly sub-continent. India need a democratic pakistan if not secular for regional stability, not causing any unrest in pak. Pak is itself responsible for destablising entire region, if I may say world.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

We went to Iraq for the oil, right? What profit were we going after in Afghanistan?

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You know that's a really good question the opium fields offer opportunities, supply has been good in recent years but there are lots of untouched minerals there, might be important one day, but you're are there to keep the pressure on Iran and keep Russia in the north

We went there because the world slept while the Taliban took it over ,and created a safe haven for AQ. We have stayed there to assist set up a representative central government that has a sufficiently competent internal security apparatus to fend off the Taliban/Paki ISI .
This is in the interest of all the nations surrounding Afghanistan except evidently Pakistan . It is clearly in the interest of India ,China ,and Russia (you are wrong about that too Clete... Russia wants us there ,and that is why they have provided an alternate supply route through their country ) .

History of the Taliban - Brief History of the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, With al-Qaeda and the United States

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Originally Posted by tomder55

We went there because the world slept while the Taliban took it over ,and created a safe haven for AQ. We have stayed there to assist set up a representative central government that has a sufficiently competent internal security apparatus to fend off the Taliban/Paki ISI .
This is in the interest of all the nations surrounding Afghanistan except evidently Pakistan . It is clearly in the interest of India ,China ,and Russia (you are wrong about that too Clete ....Russia wants us there ,and that is why they have provided an alternate supply route through their country ) .

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You can't blame the world for Al Qaeda blame yourselves they were your enemy and now you want to say you are opposed to your ally Pakistan. What sort of twisted crap is this? The sort of twisted crap you always go on with playing one against the other. Yes an independent Afghanisan is in the interests first of the Afghani and who gives a stuff if it is in the interest of India, China or Russia. Russia was happy to facilitate you kicking the @rse of those who kicked them out, nothing more and it isn't really Russia but surrounding nations who didn't want the destabilising influence of the Taliban. If Pakistan were not a failed state who would worry about their influence in Afghanistan, it was good enough during the Russian occupation for you to cultivate Pakistan and that ISI you now disown. This is a monster of your own making, just as Iran is, just as Iraq was. Don't think it is in the interest of Iran to have you in Afghanistan

Yeah that's right... all the ills of the world is the US fault . Do you ever listen to yourself ?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

yeah that's right ... all the ills of the world is the US fault . Do you ever listen to yourself ?

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You know Tom you just might stop and think once in a while... was this necessary?. why would we do that?. it is good to see you are not interferring boots and all in Syria although I wouldn't put it past you to have fermented it. You are all about projecting your power here or there or somewhereelse, you should stop and listen to yourselves and yes Tom I know what I am saying isn't sweet music to your ears because it is a reality check