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Originally Posted by smoothy

I tossed the impaired intelligence thing in because of the whiners of a number of ethnic groups that complain their test scores are lower because of discrimination......when the answer is they are lower as a group, because that group doesn't expend the same energy on education that other groups do. They all have the same capacity to learn as a group that any other group has.

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Hi Smoothy,

Two separate issues here.


Impaired intelligence to most people suggest that a person is suffering from a mental disability, usually genetic or the consequent of an accident/disease. We would use the term in a similar fashion toward someone who is hearing impaired. Because of their impairment they are unable to compete with people in ordinary society. No one would suggest that you give a hearing impaired person a job that requires acute hearing.

You comments on ethnic groups seems to be a reference to Intelligent Quotient or I.Q. testing. I am sure all ethnic groups would argue they have the same capacity to learn as any other group. They would also want to argue that some groups are disadvantaged by their cultural background when it comes to I.Q. testing. In other words, there is no such things as a culturally fair I.Q. test whereby we can accurately determine intelligence across a range of cultural groups.

Cultural background can be a determining factor when it comes to education. It can and does mean that some people are disadvantaged when it comes to schooling

Tut

I have said before that all the below average intelligence people have to live somewhere. Either we are not as smart as we think we are or there are vast pockets of people with lower intelligence. Why do teenagers drop out, I suspect it isn't lack of opportunity, which affirmative action suggests, but lack of intelligence.

Research has indicated that certain ethnic groups, I won't name them becauce of PC in this place, have lower intelligence levels and it could be said that their behaviour at times reflects this. Education might lift an individual but it doesn't lift the group

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Hi Smoothy,

Two separate issues here.


Impaired intelligence to most people suggest that a person is suffering from a mental disability, usually genetic or the consequent of an accident/disease. We would use the term in a similar fashion toward someone who is hearing impaired. Because of their impairment they are unable to compete with people in ordinary society. No one would suggest that you give a hearing impaired person a job that requires acute hearing.

You comments on ethnic groups seems to be a reference to Intelligent Quotient or I.Q. testing. I am sure all ethnic groups would argue they have the same capacity to learn as any other group. They would also want to argue that some groups are disadvantaged by their cultural background when it comes to I.Q. testing. In other words, there is no such things as a culturally fair I.Q. test whereby we can accurately determine intelligence across a range of cultural groups.

Cultural background can be a determining factor when it comes to education. It can and does mean that some people are disadvantaged when it comes to schooling

Tut

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I consider that anyone who uses that excuse for failing to study or make the most of what they have available to them.

Without pointing fingers at specific groups... because I feel they all have the same capacity to learn... just because others in your ethnic group think its cool to hang out until 3am run in packs causing problems rather than actually study. That's their decision, not a genetic inability to learn. Compare an equal random sampling of Asian, White, Hispanic and black students from the same inner city school... you can predict who comes out on top, and who comes out on the bottom.

And its not because one group has more or less mental capacity on the average than any of the others... but because of the choices they make. There are many examples of people on any specific ethnic background that despite poverty... have risen above the rest and made themselve not only a success, but have provided contributions for the community and even the country. And they did so without contributing to stealing someone else's opportunity.

Affirmative action is in itself rascist discrimination. And no different than rascist policies of any nation past and present.

And people are held responsible for their choices. Affirmative action is about rewarding bad choices and punishing those who make good ones.

Everyone in this country today gets a free education through the 12th grade. Anyone that fails to take advantage of that fully loses any right to claim being disadvantaged. That's no different than poking your own eyes out... then blaming the world for making you blind.


Of course there are a certain number of people far belove average in intelligence in any ethnic group... I am not referring to them as they are in the vast minority.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Affirmative action is in itself rascist discrimination. And no different than rascist policies of any nation past and present.

And people are held responsible for their choices. Affirmative action is about rewarding bad choices and punishing those who make good ones.

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Hi Smoothy,

My only area of disagreement is with the above. Affirmative action is a little different to racial and gender discrimination. It is often difficult not to look like the racial group you belong to. It works the same for gender. It is hard not to look like a female if you are a female. If an employer is a misogynist then he is going to discriminate against you based on your appearance.

Affirmative action takes in things that are not always obvious in terms of physical appearance. For example, sexual orientation and religion. These things are not usually obvious when one applies for a job. They only become obvious if a person admits to them or a employer asks questions along those lines. To discriminate against someone based on their religion is not racial discrimination.

Tut

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Originally Posted by smoothy

I consider that anyone who uses that excuse for failing to study or make the most of what they have availible to them.

Without pointing fingers at specific groups....because I feel they all have the same capacity to learn.... just because others in your ethnic group think its cool to hang out until 3am run in packs causing problems rather than actually study. Thats their decision, not a genetic inability to learn. Compare an equal random sampling of Asian, White, Hispanic and black students from the same inner city school.....you can predict who comes out on top, and who comes out on the bottom.

And its not because one group has more or less mental capacity on the average than any of the others.....but because of the choices they make. There are many examples of people on any specific ethnic background that despite poverty....have risen above the rest and made themselve not only a sucess, but have provided contributions for the community and even the country. And they did so without contributing to stealing someone elses opportunity.

Affirmative action is in itself rascist discrimination. And no different than rascist policies of any nation past and present.

And people are held responsible for their choices. Affirmative action is about rewarding bad choices and punishing those who make good ones.

Everyone in this country today gets a free education through the 12th grade. Anyone that fails to take advantage of that fully loses any right to claim being disadvantaged. Thats no different than poking your own eyes out....then blaming the world for making you blind.


Of course there are a certain number of people far belove average in intelligence in any ethnic group.... I am not reffering to them as they are in the vast minority.

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In all honesty I can't agree, not everyone has the same capacity to learn. If you say this you are suggesting that we can serve up a hamogenous course of facts and everyone can be expected to emerge with the same knowledge clearly this is wrong and why education fails some groups. Education might be available, but it is often not relevant, because it is directed at preparing candidates for higher education, directed at educating a minority.

So, affirmative action has failed us and in the environment that currently exists it could result in the wrong choices being made in who to retain. Education has failed us, producing more educated idiots than it has genuses and we are left with the results of being selective, and if you look at the economic chaos about us, you could well say this is the result of wrong thinking, of pandering to the masses, who it appears are good for one thing only, electing governments. It takes no intelligence or education to punch the election machine

You wouldn't need affirmative action if there was NO discrimination. And don't worry Smoothy or Clete, when you become minorities you can get YOUR affirmative action too.

You will probably need it. Oh wait this is about ugly people, well I am for it, I need all the help I can get.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

You wouldn't need affirmative action if there was NO discrimination. And don't worry Smoothy or Clete, when you become minorities you can get YOUR affirmative action too.

You will probably need it. Oh wait this is about ugly people, well I am for it, I need all the help I can get.

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I'm already part of a minority, I may even be part of more than one minority and I have never been a picture post card and have suffered discrimination, both obvious and hidden. These things are part of life and there are b*astards everywhere. If I were to rely on someone doing something for me through affirmative action I would never get anything done. This is what affirmative action does, it means lazy people don't really have to try

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Hi Smoothy,

My only area of disagreement is with the above. Affirmative action is a little different to racial and gender discrimination. It is often difficult not to look like the racial group you belong to. It works the same for gender. It is hard not to look like a female if you are a female. If an employer is a misogynist then he is going to discriminate against you based on your appearance.

Affirmative action takes in things that are not always obvious in terms of physical appearance. For example, sexual orientation and religion. These things are not usually obvious when one applies for a job. They only become obvious if a person admits to them or a employer asks questions along those lines. To discriminate against someone based on their religion is not racial discrimination.

Tut

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Affirmative action IS discrimintation in its purist form.

I will not hire you because you are white or male... I will hire the less qualified female or (pick a minority group).


THAT is no different than a white guy not hiring a black guy or woman because he doesn't personally think they are the best choice for ANY reason... even personal ones...

Discrimination is putting one or more groups at a disadvantage for no other reason than their race, gender or other reason. And affirmative action does exactly that, puts some groups at an advantage at the expense of other groups. In total disregard of actual job qualifications.

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Affirmative action IS discrimination in its purist form.

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And discrimination is hatred in any form. So what?? Whose perfect. You are lucky you aren't as ugly as I am.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

And discrimination is hatred in any form. So what??? Whose perfect. You are lucky you aren't as ugly as I am.

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Can't say I've ever seen your picture to say if you are or not. Hell, we might be equally ugly. But then, ugly is in the eye of the beholder. So who's to say.

But for the Former... then why do liberals endorse what is discrimination?

I don't when the rules are fair and transparent. But now that the KKK has taken off its hoods and started running for elected office, I keep my eyes peeled for haters.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I don't when the rules are fair and transparent. But now that the KKK has taken off its hoods and started running for elected office, I keep my eyes peeled for haters.

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They changed their name to the National Black Caucus.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Affirmative action IS discrimintation in its purist form.

I will not hire you because you are white or male...I will hire the less qualified female or (pick a minority group).


THAT is no different than a white guy not hiring a black guy or woman because he doesn't personally think they are the best choice for ANY reason....even personal ones...

Discrimination is putting one or more groups at a disadvantage for no other reason than their race, gender or other reason. And affirmative action does exactly that, puts some groups at an advantage at the expense of other groups. In total disregard of actual job qualifications.

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Yes, affirmative action is discrimination. Some might call it positive discrimination. I'm not disputing that. The point I am making is that if I discriminate on the basis of someone's skin colour then I might rightly be called a racist. If I discriminate on the basis of someone's religion then I am not a racist. I might be anti-religion, but I am not a racist. On this basis racism and affirmative action/discrimination are not exactly the same.

Tut

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Yes, affirmative action is discrimination. Some might call it positive discrimination. I'm not disputing that. The point I am making is that if I discriminate on the basis of someones skin colour then I might rightly be called a racist. If I discriminate on the basis of someone's religion then I am not a racist. I might be anti-religion, but I am not a racist. On this basis racism and affirmative action/discrimination are not exactly the same.

Tut

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Hi again smoothy,

If on the other hand you are saying the OUTCOMES are the same then I would tend to agree with you.


Tut

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Yes, affirmative action is discrimination. Some might call it positive discrimination. I'm not disputing that. The point I am making is that if I discriminate on the basis of someones skin colour then I might rightly be called a racist. If I discriminate on the basis of someone's religion then I am not a racist. I might be anti-religion, but I am not a racist. On this basis racism and affirmative action/discrimination are not exactly the same.

Tut

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Discrimination is discrimination... there is no such thing as positive discrimination, its always negative because someone is getting the shaft unwillingly... that is a falicy created in the minds of those doing the discrimination to "justify" what is an abhorant act.

I don't buy into the BS PC crap that its going to fix a damn thing... perhaps the same people that believe in that form of discrimination would also be willing to consider getting robbed as payback for having taken advantage of a situation earlier where they took advantage of someone else's mistake. After all, two wrongs make a right in the democrarts mind... don't they?

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Discrimination is discrimination....there is no such thing as positive discrimination, its always negative because someone is getting the shaft unwillingly....that is a falicy created in the minds of those doing the discrimination to "justify" what is an abhorant act.

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Hi Smoothy,

No problem, call it negative if you like.

The only thing I am disputing is your claim that affirmative action is the same as racism. The outcomes may well be the same, but this does not make them one and the same. I know this is nitpicking, but it is an important nit to pick in this case.

Tut

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Hi Smoothy,

No problem, call it negative if you like.

The only thing I am disputing is your claim that affirmative action is the same as racism. The outcomes may well be the same, but this does not make them one and the same. I know this is nitpicking, but it is an important nit to pick in this case.

Tut

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It is the same because it is the same... the only differences are the excuses given for it.

Someone gets screwed in favor of another, for reasons other than actual qualifications. What Color, or gender, it doesn't matter. Its still discrimination. What the Black Caucus wants to do... and that the White Supremacists want to do... are exactly the same, in fact they are both different sides of the same card. No excuse in the world can justify the discrimination they both want to commit.

It it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... its a duck.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

No excuse in the world can justify the discrimination they both want to commit.

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Hello again, smoothy:

I don't know about that... To ME, keeping people as SLAVES justifies some affirmative action/discrimination... It's a GOOD excuse too. You just don't agree with it.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy:

I dunno about that... To ME, keeping people as SLAVES justifies some affirmative action/discrimination... It's a GOOD excuse too. You just don't agree with it.

excon

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Funny, if the conservatives took over, and by your rules... rightfully implement affirmative action programs to discriminate against liberals in all things due to past discrimination to conservatives and responsible people in general. Then that would not only be legal but fair. Lets see how you like it if it ever becomes reality.

And about the slavery thing... its way past time they get over it already... nobody alive, their parents, or even grandparents were ever a slave here. Its been well over 150 years... they need to grow up, accept responsibility for their own actions... and again... get over it!

I didn't even have ancestors on these shores (as in the American Continent ) in the 1800's. Nothing I or any of my ancestors ever did had ANYTHING remotely to do with that. SO therefore I am and have been suffering discrimination as a result. NOBODY in my bloodline was ever even remotely responsible for anything that happened here before the early 1900's.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

It is the same because it is the same.....the only differences are the excuses given for it.

Someone gets screwed in favor of another, for reasons other than actual qualifications. What Color, or gender, it doesn't matter. Its still discrimination.

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Yes, you are right discrimination based on colour is racism. However,discrimination based on gender is not racism. It's discrimination based on gender. Isn't it? If it were discrimination based on colour then it would be racism.


Consider this hypothetical...

I am an employer in a country with a large Buddhist population. According to my hiring records I have not employed any people of the Buddhist faith. Affirmative action moves in and tells me I MUST stop discriminating against Buddhists in my interviewing process. Basically this means I must start hiring Buddhists.

Affirmative action also tells me that certain penalties are in place based on various types of discrimination in the work place. I thumb my nose at affirmative action. They are not going to tell me who to hire. I would rather pay the fine.

When I find myself up before the courts the judge imposes a 24 month jail term for racial discrimination. But wait! Doesn't discrimination based on religion only carry a $500 fine?

The judge tells me yes, but then iterates, "What does it matter, it's still discrimination.If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck".

Tut