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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

why isn't everyone fed up with this hoax?

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Hello again, Steve:

Doncha remember when I said it doesn't matter if we believe it or NOT? The solution to OTHER, more pressing problems will fix climate change, IF it's a hoax, or if it's not. You're not saying, are you, that you don't want to fix our energy problem because Al Gore is full of it about global warming?? I think you ARE saying that...

Boy, is THAT head in the sand thinking.

excon

PS> By the way, if WE fix our energy problem, it'll nip the liberal global government plan in the bud too. If you're soooo pissed at the libs for trying that, I'd think you'd be on board... No, huh?

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

Its not a hoax. It has grown beyond that to a religion. And a very dangerous one at that.

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Agree with you in that, and given the views it has all the appearances of Nazism. You are allowed one view and only one, Zieg Heil!

Yes, ex, how can I forget? Here's the thing, if we don't know that there is any such thing as anthropological global warming, what are we fixing?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

what are we fixing?

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Hello again, Steve:

We're fixing the problem running out of oil causes. That's a REAL problem. If we FIX it, we'll ALSO fix anthropological global warming, if there IS such a thing.

You're not saying, are you, that if there isn't such a thing, then we shouldn't fix our energy problem? Nahhh, you're not saying that... Are you? Dude! I think you ARE saying that.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

We're fixing the problem running out of oil causes. That's a REAL problem. If we FIX it, we'll ALSO fix anthropological global warming, if there IS such a thing.

You're not saying, are you, that if there isn't such a thing, then we shouldn't fix our energy problem? Nahhh, you're not saying that... Are you? Dude! I think you ARE saying that.

excon

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Now Ex there's another problem we think we need a fix for that the evidence is fairly thin for, what you are really saying we can't get it out of the gound fast enough and refined and we need a fix for that, now that I can agree with that.

What's your definition of "fixing?"

Like remaking the whole health care industry to take care of a small percentage of needy people, which doesn't even cover everyone and provides a growing number of waivers (including two unions that lobbied for Obamacare, insurance companies, one county and a state agency that helps people find insurance)?

That kind of fixing? Yeah, the kind of fixing that provides expensive, complicated, burdensome solutions looking for a problem.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

What's your definition of "fixing?"

Like remaking the whole health care industry to take care of a small percentage of needy people, which doesn't even cover everyone and provides a growing number of waivers (including two unions that lobbied for Obamacare, insurance companies, one county and a state agency that helps people find insurance)?

That kind of fixing? Yeah, the kind of fixing that provides expensive, complicated, burdensome solutions looking for a problem.

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Why the dummy spit? I have no idea why you have to link a failed health care system with climate policy. If your politicians are too inept to see a way out of your problems then get rid of them.

You have these problems because you have an aversion to social security solutions to the problems of the poor and under privileged and think that capitalism provides a solution to all problems rather than being part of the problem

I agree that some things don't need fixing. I don't happen to think cap n trade will fix climate problems, nor do I think putting a price on carbon is necessary or a solution to anything. There is a problem we all will have to face and that is the increasing price of oil and energy and along with that food and many other things, right around the time someone thinks it is a good idea to peg wages at the low end. You can pay for your problems with higher taxes or you can pay with higher prices but you can't escape paying this side of the divide.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Why the dummy spit?

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I have no idea what a "dummy spit" is, but the example I gave is entirely relevant to my point, why should I endorse expensive, complicated, burdensome solutions looking for a problem?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I have no idea what a "dummy spit" is, but the example I gave is entirely relevant to my point, why should I endorse expensive, complicated, burdensome solutions looking for a problem?

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As I said if you can't convience your politicians, dump them. I have agreed with you we don't need much of this environmental crap produced by the left side of politics. BUT there is a difference between health care and climate policy. I don't like populist politics at the best of times but there are things a rich nation can do to look after its people. One of your right leaning politicians thought no child should be left behind, at the same time he though tax cuts and playing with housing a good idea. Politics is full of both bad and good ideas the trick is to know which of them are really needed

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

What's your definition of "fixing?"

Like remaking the whole health care industry to take care of a small percentage of needy people

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Hello again, Steve:

Nahh. I'm a capitalist after all. Hefty tax incentives for innovation. Prizes for invention. Government can prime the pump, and it should. Do I believe there is an alternative source, or a combination thereof, that will maintain our lifestyle?? You betcha. I don't plan on going back to the stone age. Do you?

Look. I don't know IF there IS a way out of our energy problem, but if we go down, we should go down swinging. But, to say, that we're not going to invest in alternative energy sources, because you hate Al Gore too much, is kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face...

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

Nahh. I'm a capitalist after all. Hefty tax incentives for innovation. Prizes for invention. Government can prime the pump, and it should. Do I believe there is an alternative source, or a combination thereof, that will maintain our lifestyle??? You betcha. I don't plan on going back to the stone age. Do you?

Look. I dunno IF there IS a way out of our energy problem, but if we go down, we should go down swinging. But, to say, that we're not going to invest in alternative energy sources, because you hate Al Gore too much, is kinda like cutting off your nose to spite your face...

excon

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Who is the one dictating the alternative energies? Common sense or those that are enviromentalists?

So far the latter has managed to do enough damage to our system then any other and they do wish to return to the stone age.

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

Who is the one dictating the alternative energies? Common sense or those that are enviromentalists?

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Hello again, dad:

Neither. BOTH are contaminated with wrongheadedness. The wackos on the right who absolutely WON'T get on the green train because they hate Al Gore too much, and the environmental wackos the left. But, I agree with your premise. Politics on BOTH sides is getting in the way...

My solution? Turn it over to business, and let them innovate and invent.

excon

PS> Hopefully, my calling a new energy source "the green train" doesn't cause your Al Gore knee to jerk. It could hurt you.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, dad:

Neither. BOTH are contaminated with wrongheadedness. The wackos on the right who absolutely WON'T get on the green train because they hate Al Gore too much, and the environmental wackos the left. But, I agree with your premise. Politics on BOTH sides is getting in the way...

My solution?? Turn it over to business, and let them innovate and invent.

excon

PS> Hopefully, my calling a new energy source "the green train" doesn't cause your Al Gore knee to jerk. It could hurt you.

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Until such time as we can perfect fusion there is no green train. Its only a caboos trying to push a dead engine.

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

Until such time as we can perfect fusion there is no green train. Its only a caboos trying to push a dead engine.

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Hello again, dad:

Wow. I didn't know you righty's had so little faith in American ingenuity.

excon

What is missing in this discussion is that the Goracle did promote an alternate fuel that in reality had zero chance of replacing carbon based energy sources. He claimed to support reducing the carbon footprint and chicken-littled about the consequences if we didn't climb aboard his bus.
He now reveals that his primary motivation was not to find an alternative to carbon based fuels ,but instead his own electoral prospects .

This in fact is illustrative of what will happen if we continue to allow politicians to make our energy choices for us. They will always go for parochrial and personal interests over the greater good... especially when someone else's money will pay for it.

Is there an alternative to oil ,gas ,coal ? Maybe... I favor using existing technologies .But,as 'dad' has already pointed out more than once, the public is way too risk adverse in all things related to energy.

American ingenuity... hmm. Why did Thomas Edison invent the incandescent bulb ? It was not because some planner ordered him to . He did what free men do, invent stuff.

It was only after he proved it a commercially viable alternative to things like gas lights ,which had replaced whale oil lanterns, that the governments of the country step up to the plate and invest in the infrastructure.
The government should not be wasting our money on a gamble and a pipe dream.

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Originally Posted by excon

But, to say, that we're not going to invest in alternative energy sources, because you hate Al Gore too much, is kinda like cutting off your nose to spite your face...

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It might be, IF I had ever said that. You're still working on assumptions.

Hi Tom we all know that there is a viable alternative to carbon based technologies, it is somewhat more expensive but we have a little political problem, if we adopt it then we have to share the technology with everyone and there goes the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and those pesky Iranians and NK have a free hand. Difficult decision and one that I don't think americian ingenuity is up to. We also have the problem that it won't be long before we face the same shortages we are looking down the barrel of now. Personally doesn't affect me, my nation has vast reserves and we like digging holes in the ground

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, dad:

Wow. I didn't know you righty's had so little faith in American ingenuity.

excon

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Interesting that you side with the eco freaks here. Lets take a look at ingenuity for a minute. We run electric trains that are driven by diesel motors. They are efficient. We have ways already to exceed 100 mpg in common cars but yet our government stands in the way because its different. Lets use the example just posted in the message before. Edison. Would you hold him up as an icon of ingenuity ? Or was he a business man who ran rough shot over his own people to gleen as much profit as possible?

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

Lets take a look at ingenuity for a minute. We run electric trains that are driven by diesel motors.

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This you call ingenuity? The oil fueled internal combustion engine in any form is still an oil fueled internal combustion engine. Whose technology is the diesel engine? Replacing the carbon cycle with the hydrogen cycle is ingenuity. Generating electricity by chemical reaction as in a fuel cell is ingenuity. Discovering your economy can actually exist without slavery is ingenuity

What we all need is different thinking, not more of the same

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Discovering your economy can actually exist without slavery is ingenuity

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Chicken of the Sea closed its cannery in American Samoa last year because the federal government mandated a $7.25 an hour minimum wage. Over 2000 workers lost their jobs. However, 200 new jobs were created in Georgia when they moved their operations. Starkist announced 800 layoffs this year for the same reason. That kind of ingenuity?

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What we all need is different thinking, not more of the same

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In lieu of a "bolder approach," a couple of Democrats have offered this kind of different thinking, "a new strategy of gradualism" (please note the sarcasm font has been engaged).