American politics is silly be definition so you got me there.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello:

I'm all for keeping secret THAT which will HARM my country... In fact, I STILL have my secret clearance, and I have NEVER divulged what I know, nor will I EVER. However, I'm all for exposing THAT which embarrasses those in power. That's because if they did RIGHT, they wouldn't BE embarrassed. In fact, it's my view that a journalists job is to expose the truth.

The righty's think, I suppose, that a journalists job is to keep secrets that enable government... They certainly didn't like it when the Rolling Stone told the truth about McCrystal... And, they ain't gonna like this leak any better.

Oh, by the way.. If you didn't know, the leak detailed widespread torture by the Iraqi's on their fellow citizens while WE stood by and did NOTHING. I thought we went there to get RID of that big bad torturer.... Or was it WMD's??

excon

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Personally Ex I think the reasons the US, along with the rest of us, went into Iraq are somewhat confused and if it was with the expectation of removing a middle eastern repressive regime that was very niaive indeed.

I am fed up with spin, ex, and I think many others are also. Many people were killed in Iraq who didn't need to die. Ok no Americans were killed on home soil, but that doesn't excuse the losses in Iraq and the destruction of the country. It would appear that 100 Iraqi might have died for every american killed in 9/11, not justice by any measure, particularly since America was already waging war on the perpetrators and allegedly still is.

Wikileaks has done a valuable service, it has enabled us to see where we have been lied to

So a delusional paranoid rapist ,and a geeky Army Pfc. Bradley Manning know better what should remain classified than the elected Executive of the countries involved in the war against jihadistan ,the leaders of the diplomatic corp ,the chiefs of the intelligence services , and the top military brass??
No thanks . I don't recall Manning's or Jullian Assange's name on any ballot I cast .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

So a delusional paranoid rapist ,and a geeky Army Pfc. Bradley Manning know better what should remain classified

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Hello again, tom:

I say again.. IF what they're hiding EMBARRASSES them rather than exposes SECRETS, then the information SHOULD be exposed, even by deranged people. Period. End of story.

excon

The ad hominems are signs that they don't have a retort with substance.

What they in fact released is a bunch of unvetted documents without content. Little of it is news to anyone who has followed the war.
What's news ? Iraqis are brutal jailers ? No .Saddam had WMD ? No . A lot of Iraqi's have died at the hands of the Iranian and Al Qaeda led "insurgency " ? No. Iran's involvement ? No .


What bothers me is that buried in these unvetted docs is surely similar examples to the last Wiki-dump. Intelligence that does not embarrass but instead puts intelligence assets in danger.
I submit that PFC Mattingly doesn't know jack about the real implications of his illegal theft .

Jullian Assange is so deranged that he couldn't care less. If I were him I'd be paranoid too . There are a lot of brave people on the run today because of his irresponsible ego trip.

NK ,everything I said about both are fact.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, tom:

I say again.. IF what they're hiding EMBARRASSES them rather than exposes SECRETS, then the information SHOULD be exposed, even by deranged people. Period. End of story.

excon

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If there were classified documents... what they actually contain is irrelevant.

There is a big difference between (unclassified) embarrassing documents and Classified documents.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

There is a big difference between (unclassified) embarrassing documents and Classified documents.

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Hello again, smoothy:

That would be true IF they DIDN'T classify documents that EMBARRASS them in exactly the same way as documents that are indeed SECRET. But, they DO, and THAT'S the problem.

One is to protect the country. The other is to protect their a$$. I'm not in to protecting a bureaucrats a$$. You?? I guess you are.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy:

That would be true IF they DIDN'T classify documents that EMBARRASS them exactly the same as documents that are indeed SECRET. But, they DO, and THAT'S the problem.

One is to protect the country. The other is to protect their a$$. I'm not into protecting a bureaucrats a$$. You??? I guess you are.

excon

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Well, look who you elected two years ago... his Birth Certificate, his college records... everything about his past is either classified or under a court ordered seal. Want to talk about what is BS. THAT is what is the real BS.

Fact is... whatever the reason something is classified... its classified. There is no gray area for Joe Average. Yeah certain politicians get away with it... but most of us can and will get sent up the river if we violate the law pertaining to classified documents.

Do YOU want the blood of Soldiers, operatives or agents on your hands because you had this burning need to violate the law for a political agenda? Because often that is exactly what will happen. Plus by the very nature of how this all works... you can't possible know what is tied to what else and how... bits of seemingly irrelevant information usually is the key to figuring out other things... who are you or I or some idiots at wikileaks with an agenda to get our people killed to determine exactly what bits mean nothing or mean something. After all, someone without an agenda saw reason to classify them in the first place.

Word for the day... Compartmentalization. Understand that as it relates to this topic and you understand WHY there is a problem.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

After all, someone without an agenda saw reason to classify them in the first place.

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Hello again, smoothy:

We disagree. And, for a Tea Partier, you sure do TRUST the government a whole lot. I don't suffer from that affliction. I NEVER trust 'em! That's NEVER!

If they classified stuff for the sole reason of a COVER UP, then they absolutely HAD an agenda. This leak revealed lie after lie that was told to us during the war. Those lies were told to cover the a$$ of one Donald Rumsfeld and a few others. They were NOT told to protect the country. They were told to FOOL us.

I, for one, want to KNOW about that. You, not so much.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy:

We disagree. And, for a Tea Partier, you sure do TRUST the government a whole lot. I don't suffer from that affliction. I NEVER trust 'em!! That's NEVER!

If they classified stuff for the sole reason of a COVER UP, they they absolutely HAD an agenda. This leak revealed lie after lie that was told to us during the war. Those lies were told to cover the a$$ of one Donald Rumsfeld and a few others. They were NOT told to protect the country. They were told to FOOL us.

I, for one, want to KNOW about that. You, not so much.

excon

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Did you even bother looking up comparmentalization and how it relates to classified documents? If you had you would understand the risk a single document can cause. Its really not that difficult to understand so give it a try.

Clearly your political agenda means far more than the lives of those a leaked document can put in danger.

But who cares if people die as long as you can try to use something to further an agenda? Right?

War is hell, people die... always been that way, always will be.

Turns out this time Assange ,sensitive to the charges I've made about the last data dump decided that he was qualified to act as the editor of this batch of documents and did his own redacting prior to their release.
The question then becomes :what other information did he choose to extract from the final copy ?
The bottom line is that it is neither Assange' or PFC Mattingly's call.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

But who cares if people die as long as you can try to use something to further an agenda? Right?

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Hello again, smoothy:

Surprisingly, you got this one just right... Ceptin about the care part. I care if people die. And, you're right about having an agenda. You're just wrong about what it is.

My agenda is to SAVE lives AND my country. Here's how. I believe that, from this day forward, MORE lives will be SAVED than will be lost, IF the TRUTH about the mistakes we made in past wars, is revealed. You? Not so much.

excon

From the great Victor Davis Hanson.

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Had the public known in real time from periodic media leaks about operational disasters surrounding the planning for the D-Day landings, intelligence failures at the Bulge or Okinawa, or G.I. treatment of some German and Japanese prisoners, the story of World War II might have been somewhat different. But then, in those paleolithic days FDR and Winston Churchill did not have to be flawless to be perceived as being far better than Adolf Hitler.

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WikiLeaks? Selective Morality - Victor Davis Hanson - National Review Online

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy:

Surprisingly, you got this one just right... Ceptin about the care part. I care if people die. And, you're right about having an agenda. You're just wrong about what it is.

My agenda is to SAVE lives AND my country. Here's how. I believe that, from this day forward, MORE lives will be SAVED than will be lost, IF the TRUTH about the mistakes we made in past wars, is revealed. You? Not so much.

excon

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So... you care about those aiding the terrorists... and don't give a hoot about our troops and those who are helping us... because its THOSE people you (for supporting wiki-leaks criminal violations) are going to get killed... is your political agenda THAT important you want Americans and people helping us killed... Wikileaks isn't helping us, they are VERY anti-American... they are helping Iran and the Terrorists they are supporting.

Personally I find that disgusting and morally reprehensible. Breaking the law and providing Classified documents to the enemy NEVER helps us.

After all, exactly what capaity makes these crimiunals experts in what can and can not be declassified? OH, right... they DON'T have that capacity... OR knowledge.

Personally... I hope they ALL get locked up... See, I read the documents I had to sign... and I also understood WHY the system is the way it is. I take it seriously.

Zero Sympathy here... I hope they get IRS audits every year for the rest of their lives... They wanted to dance... time to pay the piper. They will now have the very people you don't want to upset... ticked off with them.

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Personally I find that disgusting and morally reprehensible

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In Assange' case it's espionage.In Mattingly's you can add treason to the charge.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

From the great Victor Davis Hanson.

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Hello again, tom:

From the GREAT excon...

You righty's STILL have a problem with the language. These weren't "operational disasters" or "intelligence failures". They were outright LIES! Big difference!

excon

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Originally Posted by smoothy

So...you care about those aiding the terrorists...and don't give a hoot about our troops

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Hello again, smoothy:

I wish you could read better, or maybe had a better grasp of the issues, or maybe weren't so fast to cast aspersions... In fact, it's YOUR agenda that's driving your posts - not your brain.

Over 4,000 AMERICAN men and women have been killed in Iraq. Since we now know the TRUTH about the lead up to the war, and our conduct in it, we're probably not going to do that again. Had the TRUTH been revealed BEFORE we went in, more than 4,000 AMERICAN'S would be alive.

That's what TRUTH does. I don't know what's so hard about that to understand...

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy:

I wish you could read better, or maybe had a better grasp of the issues, or maybe weren't so fast to cast aspersions... In fact, it's YOUR agenda that's driving your posts - not your brain.

Over 4,000 AMERICAN men and women have been killed in Iraq. Since we now know the TRUTH about the lead up to the war, and our conduct in it, we're probably not going to do that again. Had the truth been revealed BEFORE we went in, more than 4,000 AMERICAN'S would be alive.

That's what TRUTH does. I don't know what's so hard about that to understand....

excon

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Really... Gee, my agenda is follow the law and throw the book at people who break it and release classified documents to our enemies... which is exactly what Wiki-leaks is doing... as well as the d1ckless wonders that gave the documents to them.

THere IS no gray area... the Documents were Classified... these COWARDS and terrorist lovers broke the law... I honestly hope they all get life in prison.

After all, if there was nothing in them then why didn't Obama have them declassified... He is the all knowing omnipotient Messiah... its hard to find someone that hates the Military and our Soldiers more than he hates them... It would have been in his interest... or is there something here that's REALLY important you are missing... like because you never read the forms you HAD to sign to get a clearance or even get it renewed. You know its in there along with that thing about being subjected to random drug and urine testing... etc. and yeah... right where it details the penalties and legal action you would be subject to if you violate the terms you signed on to.

YOU aren't in grade of determining what should or shouldn't be declassified. The fact remains it is... and legally that's ALL that matters. Try driving pass a stopped schoolbus at 90 mph without stopping just because you don't think you should have to... see how far that gets you in court.

And it only gets far more touchy at higher levels of clearances and classification levels. But you have a clearance you should know all of that already.

Incidentally... YOU were one of those saying we should not be in Iraq OR Afghanistan... because there are soveriegn nations... you know, Like Germany and Japan were, then exactly WHY do you think we should have done anything when they were torturing Terrorists... or is there Hypocrisy there on your part?

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Originally Posted by smoothy

You know its in there along with that thing about being subjected to random drug and urine testing...

YOU aren't in grade of determining what should or shouldn't be declassified. The fact remains it is.....and legally thats ALL that matters.

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Hello again, smoothy:

Well, it isn't ALL that matters... What matters MORE is the bedrock values of our nation. When our leaders betray them, somebody has to tell.

excon

PS> I was in Vietnam.. They didn't have no stinkin drug tests then..