Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

That kinda stuff. You know, the stuff we used to say were so horrible about the Soviet Union.

excon

---

Oh, the stuff we experienced under Janet Reno...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Cats:

Nahhh. You know what a police state is like, doncha? The cops can search you anytime they want. They can stop you on the street and ask to see your papers. The government spies on you. Your neighbors snitch on you. No dissent. You don't have a right to an attorney if you're arrested. You don't even get a trial. They can torture you into confessing...... No appeal rights.

That kinda stuff. You know, the stuff we used to say were so horrible about the Soviet Union.

excon

---

Let's disect this hyperbole

The cops can search you anytime they want. Isn't happening here .

They can stop you on the street and ask to see your papers. Nope still need probable cause

The government spies on you. Haven't heard of a case yet where the government is randomly spying on anyone .

Your neighbors snitch on you. That could mean you have crappy neighbors ;yes that happens in free and police states .

No dissent . You just called the dissenting tea partiers the enemy that you can see yourself shooting .

You don't have a right to an attorney if you're arrested. Not in this country ;or please document the example where that has happened .

They can torture you into confessing. What you call torture and I call enhanced interrogation has only happened to jihadists foreign enemies .

No appeal rights. What citizen has been denied the right to appeal ? For that matter ;what foreigner has been denied that?

I can't believe what I read here sometimes. Cops if anything act more restrained then they ever have in our history . If nothing else ;everything they do are subject to someone video taping them .

Did you see the President's disconnect yesterday ? He went to NYC to visit their Real Time Crime Center ;and to praise the rapid response to the Time Square terror attack on the same day he announced that he was slashing the money NYC receives to fight terrorism.

Even rabid Democrat Rep Anthony Weiner said that the decision by the President was mind-numbingly, insanely wrong.Even Schmucky Schumer spoke out against the decision.

Very scary

The Obama adminstration's disconnect knows no bounds.

On the original subject, Pakistan arrested an admitted accomplice of Shahzad while two were arrested in Boston, Pir Khan and Aftab Khan, suspected of financing Shahzad.

Some lone wolf.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Some lone wolf.

---

Hello again, Steve:

The jury is still out on that verdict. Besides, I'm not sure whether there's much difference. If you perceive an international plot, then I suspect you want to whisk him off to Gitmo to get a little torture, and reveal what he knows... Of course, NOT treating him that way resulted in the capture of the people you cite above. I guess you forgot about that. Maybe torturing him would have done it too. I don't know.

Nonetheless, the terms "lone wolf" and "international terrorist", AREN'T as clear as you would have us think. The first clue I had that he operated alone, was his astoundingly inept attempt at car bombing. One thing I know about committed jihadists is, they know how to build a bomb.

Yeah, this want to be jihadist went to Pakistan to meet some brothers, and he did. But, I don't know WHO he met. Frankly, I doubt he met anyone of consequence, because anyone of consequence would NOT let a new person, especially an AMERICAN new person into their circles. I say that, because the second thing I know about committed jihadists, is that they're NOT stupid,

We wonder WHAT terrorist group they were associated with because we want our terrorist groups to be defined in tight little packages... But, over there, there aren't tight little packages of terrorists who can be identified as belonging to a particular group. There's only brothers in arms. You can't throw a rock over there without hitting one. They don't like us much.

So, I don't know WHO he connected with. But, in terms of your definition, I'd call 'em lone wolves.

excon

Wow, thanks for defining my terms. You've really begun to speak for me quite a lot, and as the usual case for those who speak on my behalf unsolicited, you got it wrong. Sometimes I'm just addressing the OP as in this case, and not looking to address all the nuances of certain terms, beyond "jihadi terrorist" that is. This is what I was addressing from the OP:

Quote:

---

It must be embarrassing enough to them to first falsely presume that it was a domestic attack by right wing fringe groups or by Tea Partiers who were angry over Obamacare . At this point it would be a much safer bet to make the presumption that it was a jihadi terrorist . Oh but wait...

---

The facts just keep proving tom right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Wow, thanks for defining my terms.

---

Hello again, Steve:

You're welcome.

excon

Tom they use Homeland Security as an excuse to not have probable cause then when they are put on the spot about what was the probable cause they make one up. The police are stopping people and even tazering them for no real reason.
There are even YouTube videos of cops doing these things.
One is a guy and his girlfriend (or wife) visiting from Canada. They end up arresting him because he questions them why they are giving him the third degree.
Another is a woman and her kids and the cop tazers her twice in front of her kids when she wasn't posing any threat to the cop. I have seen a lot of videos like this and even know people in real life that this happens to. My 60 some year old neighbor that was in bad health simply asked the cops why they were arresting his son. Instead of just replying warrants they shoved him into the 6 ft fence.

But what do those videos show ? Are you looking at systemic abuse ;policy ,or random acts of excess police work that have always happened but are now being caught regularly on video tape ?

As I mentioned on the drug war op. These are snapshots in time that the viewer is not privy to content.

The other day on the news there was a nationally shown video of police stomping on presumable illegals. Yesterday there was a video of a teacher beating a student. I contend these are the exceptions .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

I contend these are the exceptions .

---

I disagree. I contend that it's been a policy for a long time. The victims are foreign when conservatives are in the White House and Citizens when the lib-progs live there. Reference Ruby Ridge, Waco, Elian Gonzalez, and these latest videos versus Abu Gharib, Extraordinary rendition, et. al. It depends on the President's focus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

The first clue I had that he operated alone, was his astoundingly inept attempt at car bombing. One thing I know about committed jihadists is, they know how to build a bomb.

Yeah, this wanna be jihadist went to Pakistan to meet some brothers, and he did. But, I dunno WHO he met. Frankly, I doubt he met anyone of consequence, because anyone of consequence would NOT let a new person, especially an AMERICAN new person into their circles. I say that, because the second thing I know about committed jihadists, is that they're NOT stupid,

We wonder WHAT terrorist group they were associated with because we want our terrorist groups to be defined in tight little packages... But, over there, there aren't tight little packages of terrorists who can be identified as belonging to a particular group. There's only brothers in arms. You can't throw a rock over there without hitting one. They don't like us much.

So, I dunno WHO he connected with. But, in terms of your definition, I'd call 'em lone wolves.

excon

---

I was listening to Armstrong and Getty, and a caller, with some military ties, called in and theorized that a seemingly well educated man of Shazaad's background should have been capable of making a functioning bomb. We all see that.

As a recently naturalized AMERICAN CITIZEN, he may have been targeted by jihadist. Already westernized and assimilated, as well as having legit documents.

Shazaad has not been linked to any Iman or mosque, unlike major Hassan. This is the other disconnect. I'm not sure there is anything, yet, in his background to indicate he was radicalized.

Anyway, the theory proposed is that they blackmailed him, [threatened family or financial ruin?] to do this. He may have seemed incompetent and amateurish, but perhaps he WANTED the mission to fail and to be captured? Wasn't his first statements "are you FBI or police?"

Just a theory, but if true, just goes to show you how ruthless and cunning these people are. Who would have done this --
Handicapped bombers kill dozens in Iraq - Conflict in Iraq- msnbc.com

Sun Tzu would approve.



G&P

It's become clear enough that Shahzad was not acting alone that the White House made a u-turn (which WaPo brilliantly terms an "escalation") and blamed the Pakistani Taliban. Who needs to be linked to a mosque after a five-month trip to Waziristan?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

It's become clear enough that Shahzad was not acting alone that the White House made a u-turn (which WaPo brilliantly terms an "escalation") and blamed the Pakistani Taliban. Who needs to be linked to a mosque after a five-month trip to Waziristan?

---

And it's clear that they "acted stupidly." I love turning that phrase around.

Cats ,Gen. Janis Karpinski was demoted for her lack of oversight of the Abu Gharib prison ;and 12 guards from Abu Ghraib were convicted of crimes related to the abuse.\\

If this was indeed a drift to a police state then why would they be held accountable for the abuses ?


Suspect Says He Was Inspired by Imam's Writings - WSJ.com

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

Cats ,Gen. Janis Karpinski was demoted for her lack of oversight of the Abu Gharib prison ;and 12 guards from Abu Ghraib were convicted of crimes related to the abuse.

---

Horiuchi was forced to resign and charged with Manslaughter, Tom. All the incidents still happened. It's incipient in a police force to form an "us versus them" mentality.

My contention is that the focus of those in charge of police oversight determines where that mentality is "aimed." I believe, as I assume you do, that foreign enemies are more appropriate targets.