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Originally Posted by phlanx

Elliot, tell me, if you were being atatcked, would you want a state run police department to come to your rescue

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Actually, having been attacked, I trust my own skill in combat more than I do the skills of most police. I've trained with police officers (let me rephrase that: I have trained police officers) in hand-to-hand combat, and frankly I'm a better fighter than 90% of them.

So in answer to your question, no, I don't really want or need the cops to come to my rescue.

On the other hand, you are asking your question as a general rule and as a general rule most people WOULD want the cops to be available to rescue them.

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If your house was on fire, would you want a state run fire truck to turn up to put out the fire and save as much of your house and family as possible?

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Actually, my town in New Jersey does just fine with a VOLUNTEER fire department rather than a city-run fire department. But again, I take your point.

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So you pay taxes for state run organisations that are there to help and assist you when you need help, and yet a doctor putting a plaster on your leg must be paid for individually

Don't get it!

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Let me ask you some questions now...

What happens if there are multiple fires at one time, and the fire department isn't avialable to put out the fire in your kitchen?

Answer: personal fire extinguishers that you can buy on your own to put out your own fires.

What happens when the police are on another call and can't get to you in time to save you from your attacker? (There's an old saying: "When help is needed within seconds, the police are there in minutes." That's why I learned to fight for myself and not rely on the cops being there.)

Answer: Ownership of a personal weapon and martial arts training.

What happens when the state-run health care runs out of beds for the operation that you need?

Answer: A privately-purchased health plan that covers private medicine.

The point is to not be so tied to a system that you are completely reliant on it when the crap hits the fan. The point is to be able to do for yourself what "the system" will fail to do for you. Because Murphy's Law (one of it's many permutations) says that if a system can fail, it will do so when you need it most. Therefore, it is best to have a system that leaves you the largest number of choices and options for if that system DOES fail. And being forced into a government system leaves us the FEWEST options, not the most.

If the government is taking money away from me in order to pay for the system that I am most afraid is going to fail me when I need it most, then I am being left with fewer options than if I kept the same money and spent it on the health care that I want or need. Any system that takes money out of my pocket is one that leaves me with fewer options than if I got to keep that money.

Elliot

Elliot, you can be the most trained, lethal weapon in the world, you can't STOP BULLETS! (Please don't get silly on the idea of wrapping yourself up in cottonwoil to rebuff that statement)

As for murphy, I have made in one of my best mates, as only my mates know how to trip me up with such regularity :)

And yet again your comments are me me me!

Look I understand why you say your comments, it is better to have choices and in a democracy, choices are provided to you

However, a democracy also means there is a tier system, and we all know that poo rolls down hill, so if you are at the bottom, and somebody has to be at the bottom, you are in a for a rough ride

So, being that you are an advocate of Murphys law, then you SURELY can accept that it doesn't matter how well trained, how well protected, how well provided for you are, there are times when you will be tripped up and need the assistance of another human being!

Elliot, haven't you understood that the fewer social problems there are, the less taxed you will be?

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried"

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Originally Posted by phlanx

Tomder, so why do you pay taxes?

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Uhhh, cause the law says so.

It sure isn't because I'm expecting wonderful services from the government... because they don't provide wonderful service at anything they do.

And it isn't so that I can be charitable... I can do that on my own without government forcing me to do it. And the charities that I give money to are more efficient (there's that word again) at making sure that my money is put to good use than the government is.

The only reason that I pay taxes is because I don't want to go to jail for tax evasion.

Are you telling me that you pay taxes because you think you're getting something out of it? That you pay those taxes gladly and eagerly? That you LIKE paying taxes? That you LIKE being reliant on a government to give you goods and services that you could easily purchase for yourself (and in much greater quantity and quality) if only you didn't have to pay so much in taxes?

The tax rates in the UK (last I heard) are over 50%. The average UK salary is in the L23,000 range. So, what are you getting for L11,500 per year that you couldn't buy on your own? Is what you are getting worth what you are paying? Do you truthfully believe you are getting your money's worth from the money you pay in taxes?

I know I'm not.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

The tax rates in the UK (last I heard) are over 50%

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Nope way off the mark there.
It's a tiered system: HM Revenue & Customs: Rates and Allowances - Income Tax
Starts at 10% sub £2,440 the bulk of people pay 20% up to £37,400 and then it's 40% on whatever is above that limit.

National insurance is a further percentage but harder to work out.

What happens in America for Emergency treatment ?

Are you stitched up and then billed?
Or mended for FREE!

Elliot, the tax rate, is based on what you earn

The less you earn the less of a tax bracket you are in

For starters, the average salary (dpending on further tax credits you can get for kids etc) will be at approx 22% of your salary and not 50%

If it was at 50% pal, we would all be moving out

If you earn more than £40k ($70k approx) PA, then anythying earned over 40k will be taxed at 40%, and again, (unsure what the amount is for 50% as it is new) but I think anything over £100k ($160k) and you will be taxed at 50%

I never expect, demand, or require government services, to quote yourself, I am self reliant and as such would probably make a good american.(wow that left a taste :)

However I come from a background that had two very poorly paid parents, who worked hard for what they had, and what they taught me has allowed me to do what I like

I never saw my parents complain or demand that they were not getting enough off the government, but they went out and worked for it themselves

However, my parents bless them are not the sharpest tools in the box, and as such cannot be doctors, teachers, or any other professional, so how could they go get what they need without stealing it, if they didn't have the assistance of the state

There is not a single business on this planet which is answrable to the people.

As an American I would have thought you would understand why a Government must listen to its poeples wishes, even if it is just a voice they are getting, the alternative is war matey, or is that another concept of the social structure lost on you as well?

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

It sure isn't because I'm expecting wonderful services from the government... because they don't provide wonderful service at anything they do

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Then Move. Move somewhere where you approve of what the government does. Does such a place exist? Oe are you doomed to whine about government services until you die? That's a crappy choice of lifestyle in my humble opinion.

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Originally Posted by phlanx

Elliot, you can be the most trained, lethal weapon in the world, you can't STOP BULLETS! (Please don't get silly on the idea of wrapping yourself up in cottonwoil to rebuff that statement)

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NEITHER CAN THE COPS WHO AREN'T THERE WHEN YOU NEED THEM!! I can get shot dead a lot cheaper than the amount that I pay in taxes.

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As for murphy, I have made in one of my best mates, as only my mates know how to trip me up with such regularity :)

And yet again your comments are me me me!

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Yes... because, as Adam Smith makes very clear in Wealth of Nations, the "me me me" attitude is the attitude that helps "us us us".

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Look I understand why you say your comments, it is better to have choices and in a democracy, choices are provided to you

However, a democracy also means there is a tier system, and we all know that poo rolls down hill, so if you are at the bottom, and somebody has to be at the bottom, you are in a for a rough ride

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But the wonderful thing about our system is that you don't have to STAY at the bottom if you don't want to. Capitalism is such that there are very few barriers between the poor and the rich. The poor can become the rich very easily... albeit with a lot of hard work. Nobody has to STAY poor. The system REWARDS hard work and PROMOTES success.

So nobody has to be hip-deep in poo for any longer than they decide to stay there.

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So, being that you are an advocate of Murphys law, then you SURELY can accept that it doesn't matter how well trained, how well protected, how well provided for you are, there are times when you will be tripped up and need the assistance of another human being!

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Yes. And when that time comes, I'd rather have the money in my pocket with which to pay that other person for his services, rather than rely on his charity or the intervention of the government to pay for it for me.

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Elliot, haven't you understood that the fewer social problems there are, the less taxed you will be?

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Yes... and it's funny how MOST of the social problems in existence are ones created by the GOVERNMENT so that they can justify more taxation.

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"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried"

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Winston Churchill. And I agree with the sentiment. But it was said by Jefferson that "The government that governs best governs least." The least intervention by the government, the least taxation by the govermment, resulting in the most personal choices available.

I simply do not see the government as the solution to my problems or anyone else's problems either. You clearly do. Given the historical lack of success of governments throughout history in providing solutions to problems, I'm not quite sure what you base your beliefe on, though. But that is where we differ.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Then Move. Move somewhere where you approve of what the government does. Does such a place exist? Oe are you doomed to whine about government services until you die? That's a crappy choice of lifestyle in my humble opinion.

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There is no place where I would approve of what the government does... because NO GOVERNMENT EVER DEVISED has ever done anything good for its people in the long run.

The biggest lie in history is 9 words long: "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help."

However, the USA, for all that its government is becoming ever more intrusive in our lives, STILL offers the greatest opportunities and the lowest level of government interference of any place in the entire world. My whole point is to prevent it from becoming more intrusive than it already is so that the next generation can enjoy the same opportunities that I have enjoyed.

Not the same government programs.

Not the same taxation levels.

Not the same welfare statism.

Not the same nanny statism.

THE SAME OPPORTUNITY.

So, I'll stay here and defend the USA for as long as I can and enjoy the opportunities while trying to hold off the government as long as possible.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Then Move. Move somewhere where you approve of what the government does. Does such a place exist? Oe are you doomed to whine about government services until you die? That's a crappy choice of lifestyle in my humble opinion.

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You call it crappy, I call it freedom. Hopefully we'll still have that when Obama is done trying to wreck the country.

Somebody in a Capitalist Society HAS to be the lowest paid!!

According to you if they have the work ethic they can rise out of that and get a beter life for themselves

SO WHO REPLACES THEM! Somebody must be lowest paid!

Businesses compete with each other and as such they demand more for less from their emplyees, and their suppliers which is a perpetual cycle

As such people who work hard will still get paid low wages

Surely it is the repsponbility of the fortuante to assist the misfortunate

As regards this :

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I can get shot dead a lot cheaper than the amount that I pay in taxes.

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Why don't you lobby your government to ban weapons? :)

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So nobody has to be hip-deep in poo for any longer than they decide to stay there

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A weekly pay check when rasing a family is a very powerful thing to have, the uncertainty of a bsuiness can be very off putting

AND AGAIN! In a capitalist society, not everyone can be rich, the structure of employment would be gone and nobody would deliver the bread

And don't forget, all the winston churchills, jeffersons, and Adam Smiths in the world cannot stop this

We are just three meals away from anarchy!

You need a government, you demand a government, without it, you and I would not be talking, we would be fighting!

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Originally Posted by phlanx

Elliot, the tax rate, is based on what you earn

The less you earn the less of a tax bracket you are in

For starters, the average salary (dpending on further tax credits you can get for kids etc) will be at approx 22% of your salary and not 50%

If it was at 50% pal, we would all be moving out

If you earn more than £40k ($70k approx) PA, then anythying earnt over 40k will be taxed at 40%, and again, (unsure what the amount is for 50% as it is new) but I think anything over £100k ($160k) and you will be taxed at 50%

I never expect, demand, or require government services, to quote yourself, I am self reliant and as such would probably make a good american.(wow that left a taste :)

However I come from a background that had two very poorly paid parents, who worked hard for what they had, and what they taught me has allowed me to do what I like

I never saw my parents complain or demand that they were not getting enough off the government, but they went out and worked for it themselves

However, my parents bless them are not the sharpest tools in the box, and as such cannot be doctors, teachers, or any other professional, so how could they go get what they need without stealing it, if they didnt have the assistance of the state

There is not a single business on this planet which is answrable to the poeple.

As an American I would have thought you would understand why a Government must listen to its poeples wishes, even if it is just a voice they are getting, the alternative is war matey, or is that another concept of the social structure lost on you as well?

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How much are you paying in national income taxes, local income taxes, real estate taxes, sales tax, VAT tax (or the local equivalent), excise taxes, stamp duties, motoring taxes, capital gains taxes, Television fees, and every other government tax and fee that you pay.

BTW, our income taxes in the USA max out at 35% for the highest tax bracket... at least until next year. And I still pay about 49% in taxes, because of state and local income taxes, real estate taxes, sales taxes, etc.

(The gas tax is a big one... $0.18 of every dollar I pay for gas goes to the government... even though they don't produce the gas and have actively prevented the companies that DO produce the gas from producing more. What has the government done to justify that tax? What service am I getting in return from the government? Absolutely none.)

So you are actually paying MORE in taxes than your income tax rate.

What's the all-in percentage you're paying? Calculate it. Then tell me if what you are paying is worth what you are getting in return. (That's the only point of mine you didn't address in your last post.)

Elliot

I'd say most of those in the "lowest paid" category here are teenagers. It's also true that what's considered "poverty" here is often over dramatized. Not to say we don't have those who are truly misfortunate who should be helped one way or another. We're not ogres, and yes we need government, but not the type of nanny state government the left in this country desires - government is not the answer to everyone's problems.

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Tomder, so why do you pay taxes?

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There are essential services enumerated in the Constitution that the national government has a duty to perform and it is reasonable for Congress to collect taxes for those purposes.

The rest of the things that we are taxed for ;the schools ,the police forces ,the fire depts ,and even most of the safety net services that you are referring to are the exclusive authorities of the states in our federal system.

That's just the way it is . Any attempt by the national government to fund these are a usurpation of power. I do not oppose the funding of a safety net. I object to a central nanny state ,with representatives from the 4 corners of our large nation making decisions that are largely parochial .
In other words ,I'm perfectly content with the system the founders put in place since they added a means to AMEND the Constitution as an instrument to handle evolving sociatal and cultural standards.

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And tomder, your atempt to quote ens to is a little lost especially when you quote Washington, which states We must, and our efforts.

Do you think Washington was refferring to me and I when he made his statements?

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You must separate my signature quote with the D*ckens quote . I added Washington's quote after Republicans got their butts handed to them . It is a rally call ;an inspirational quote . Specifically Washington used it in the darkest days of our Revolution when it appeared you guys were going to win.

The D*ckens quote as I stated illustrates what I think is the complete error of the effort to compel benevolence out of people by some kind of Robin Hood mentality . Lest we forget , Sherwood ,representing government power to tax ,was the bad guy in that tale .

I have addressed your points several times on this issue, and I have told you I agree with you that a government will always do more robbing than providing

However, I have also stated many many times, you need a government to be there to provide the link in the social structure

Don't get me started on the gas tax over here - shocking how much we pay

As I have an inhouse accountant, and the wife takes care of the books at home, personally I have no idea

I would suspect it wouldn't be far off 50-60% of all money spent is on taxes

But then that is a very simplified view of the way it works here

We pay taxes, but we get tax credits which gives us some back for us too look after our kids

My wife's tax bracket is supplimented because she works limited hours so she pick up the kids from school etc

The cars we use are taxed at the point of sale, yet I claim the tax back through the business

So over here it is not as easy to read into the figures as it is with yourselves

I have to assume you are not on a low income and as such you live in an afluent area of NJ

So with few homes around covering a larger area of space, the taxes raised from these homes would not cover the cost of the building the road outside your house, or the one that takes you to the supermarket to get the milk delivered by the poorly paid worker

So you have to accept that the cost of services that you use is supplimented by the masses

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I have to assume you are not on a low income and as such you live in an afluent area of NJ

So with few homes around covering a larger area of space, the taxes raised from these homes would not cover the cost of the building the road outside your house, or the one that takes you to the supermarket to get the milk delivered by the poorly paid worker

So you have to accept that the cost of services that you use is supplimented by the masses

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I am familiar with NJ taxes .Trust me ;the taxes not only cover services for the local community but in fact pay for wealth transfer to lower wage areas to fund their school districts etc. In effect ,once your home is fully paid for the property taxes in NJ (where I work ) and NY (where I live )are the equivalent of paying an extra rent on your home.
It is for this reason more than any other that once we become geezers on a fixed income we are forced to vacate this great area and move to states that are much more friendly to the elderly . (ok the winters also have something to do with it)

The funny thing is that in those states they still manage to provide services that you are saying could not be provided unless the taxes were at an oppressive rate .

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

There is no place where I would approve of what the government does... because NO GOVERNMENT EVER DEVISED has ever done anything good for its people in the long run.

The biggest lie in history is 9 words long: "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help."

However, the USA, for all that its government is becoming ever more intrusive in our lives, STILL offers the greatest opportunities and the lowest level of government interferance of any place in the entire world. My whole point is to prevent it from becoming more intrusive than it already is so that the next generation can enjoy the same opportunities that I have enjoyed.

Not the same government programs.

Not the same taxation levels.

Not the same welfare statism.

Not the same nanny statism.

THE SAME OPPORTUNITY.

So, I'll stay here and defend the USA for as long as I can and enjoy the opportunities while trying to hold off the government as long as possible.

Elliot

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Are there any places/countries on this earth where the governemnt is running to your liking?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Are there any places/countries on this earth where the governemnt is running to your liking?

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Not speaking for Elliot but I doubt it. What you guys outside of the U.S. can't seem to figure out is the founders rightfully had a deep distrust of government and that distrust and suspicion of government is a hallmark of the American concept and experience.

That is the basis of our constitution, the reason for the separation of and specifically enumerated powers, the bill of rights, the "shall nots," and words like violate, infringe, abridge etc. in the constitution. If we as a country lose that distrust and suspicion and allow the government to continue to abridge our rights and go beyond the powers specifically enumerated we are no longer America, the land of the free. Nowhere in the constitution is Congress given the power to take my money and give it to someone else... period.

It must suck going through your entire life not liking the way your country is run and no way of ever having it to your liking.

Not at all ;a distrust of government is fundamental to liberty .

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How else could it end? What reasonable social and political order could conceivably be built and maintained where authority was questioned before it was obeyed, where social differences were considered to be incidental rather than essential to community order, and where superiority, suspect in principle, was not allowed to concentrate in the hands of a few but was scattered broadly through the populace? No one could clearly say. But some, caught up in a vision of the future in which the peculiarities of American life became the marks of a chosen people, found in the defiance of traditional order the firmest of all grounds for their hope for a freer life. The details of this new world were not as yet clearly depicted; but faith ran high that a better world than any that had ever been known could be built where authority was distrusted and held in constant scrutiny; where the status of men flowed from their achievements and from their personal qualities, not from distinctions ascribed to them at birth; and where the use of power over the lives of men was jealously guarded and severely restricted. It was only where there was this defiance, this refusal to truckle, this distrust of all authority, political or social, that institutions would express human aspirations, not crush them.

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(Bernard Bailyn The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution. )