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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

There are reasons that I don't have any pictures of myself in swim trunks.

Elliot

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I guess you don't have any pics of yourself in speedos, then !

Tick

Im sure you all look sexy in speedos.

Don't wear speedos, never have.

Just to bring this back on topic somewhat.

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France's tussle between religious practices and its stern secular code.

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A 2004 law banning the wearing of Muslim head scarves at public schools sparked fierce debate. That legislation also banned Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses in public classrooms.

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This law also banned the wearing of ANY religious symbols in any public place, not just Muslim, but as ever this particular minority appears to be the most vocal.

This is not Religious discrimination, but adherence to their laws.

Now if you want to adopt a new country than you should abide by their statute laws.

Australia has the right attitude. Their PM was quoted as saying pretty much the same.
After all there's certain things you cannot hide, like race, but religion is a personal choice that should not be pushed on others, this includes Christianity..

I honestly believe that France has the right idea about this and is attempting to integrate all aspects of it's society with no overt boundaries.

You think that it's OK for a government to restrict openly displaying religious symbols as if they are something to hide ? I think only a state promoting its own brand of secular worship would resort to such rights repression.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

You think that it's ok for a government to restrict openly displaying religious symbols as if they are something to hide ? I think only a state promoting its own brand of secular worship would resort to such rights repression.

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You are right Tom we don't restrict them here although I personally think their unwillingness to assimulate is an affront and an insult, I can give them a little slack but it is weird to see women dressed that way in our streets and it is the women not the men who make themselves obvious so it is discrimination against women and we should not allow it to be practised. We do not see the men wearing their traditional dress

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Originally Posted by tickle

I guess you dont have any pics of yourself in speedos, then !

tick

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Hey, my family are members and donors of Heritage for the Blind. I have no intention of CAUSING blindness in others.

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Originally Posted by Curlyben

Now if you want to adopt a new country than you should abide by their statute laws.

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Curly,

Judaism has a concept that states "Dinah d'malchuta dinah", which means "The Law of the Land is the Law." Basically, that means that we have to follow the laws of the lands in which we live.

There's a caveat to this Jewish Law, though.

If the law of the land is discriminatory toward Jews (ei: the Inquisitions, forced conversions, or laws that REQUIRE us to break Jewish Law in order to be compliant) we are not required to follow that law of the land. The best choice, of course, would be to leave and go elsewhere, where we are permitted to practice our religion in peace. But there have been times in history when travel to a new location was either restricted or was just not feasible. In those cases, we did what we could to follow Jewish Law to the best of our ability, even in secret.

(The Morano Jews aka "the Conversos" of Spain in the 1490s were a perfect example... Jews who outwardly followed the laws of the land, but who practiced their "illegal" religion in secret and in violation of the law of the land.)

So here's the question: do these laws in France which prevent Muslims from wearing burkinis and traditional headress and Jews from wearing yarmulkas in public schools constitute discriminatory acts against Muslims and Jews preventing them from practicing their religions?

Because if they are, then the concept of "Dinah d'malchutah dinah" goes right out the window. The idea that we need to follow the local laws TO THE EXCLUSION of following our religion changes the equation, in my opinion.

The best choice, as I have said before, is for people to move elsewhere, so that they can practice their religions in peace. But if that isn't possible, for whatever reasons... well then, one must do what one must do even in a hostile land.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

So here's the question: do these laws in France which prevent Muslims from wearing burkinis and traditional headress and Jews from wearing yarmulkas in public schools constitute discriminatory acts against Muslims and Jews preventing them from practicing their religions?

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I think you are picking things up incorrectly here.
It's NOT aimed at Jews or Muslims or any one Religion, but ALL of them.
France is a proudly secular state and wishes to remain so in public at least. This does not impinge on the rights to practice religion at all, just the public display of such.

What is practised in the privacy of your own home is entirely your choice.

I'll put a slight spin on this for you.
Would you find it acceptable if your own county started enforcing strict Shira law, as there was a large Muslim community?

Please don't get me wrong.
I am NOT a racist, but I don't understand why some groups "demand" special rights to live in their ADOPTED countries.
After all the same latitude would NOT be shown to us if it where the obverse..

Interestingly enough ;the French in fact cave in on issues of Sharia law in the "banlieus" Muslim ghettos (French police rarely enter these enclaves ,and when they do their cars are torched. ) .

And of course ;here and in France ,Sharia financing laws are becoming encorporated into our laws.

Face the facts ;soon France and much of Europe will be dominant Muslim and their desperate quest to remain secular excluding all external displays of religion will go .

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Originally Posted by Curlyben

I think you are picking things up incorrectly here.
It's NOT aimed at Jews or Muslims or any one Religion, but ALL of them.
France is a proudly secular state and wishes to remain so in public at least. This does not impinge on the rights to practice religion at all, just the public display of such.

What is practised in the privacy of your own home is entirely your choice.

I'll put a slight spin on this for you.
Would you find it acceptable if your own county started enforcing strict Shira law, as there was a large Muslim community ??

Please don't get me wrong.
I am NOT a racist, but I don't understand why some groups "demand" special rights to live in their ADOPTED countries.
After all the same latitude would NOT be shown to us if it where the obverse..

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So, let me get this straight... if I want to have a public display of lighting a Menorah in Central Park (as the Chabad hassidic group does every year) during Hannukah, you would have a problem with that public display?

If I walked in to a court house somewhere and someone tried to force me to take off my yarmulka, you'd be okay with that because I am making a "public display" of my religion?

I'm curious, Ben... when did the freedom of religion guaranteed by the 1st Amendment become only a right to practice in private? When you say that France is interested not in preventing the practice of religion, just the PUBLIC practice of religion, you are essentially saying that France is prohibbiting public religious practice.

Is the right to free speech only allowed to be practiced in private as well? Or does the US Constitution SPECIFICALLY give us the right to practice free speech in public, along with freedom of assembly, and freedom of the press?

When did the right to freedom of religion, including religious practices that you disagree with, suddenly become a right that can only be practiced in privacy? Isn't the whole point of the 1st Amendment that it specifically allows for religious practice IN PUBLIC?

Ditto for the Muslims and their mode of dress. Or the Hassidic community and their mode of dress.

Now... I understand that we're not talking about the USA. This is taking place in France. Our laws don't apply there. But you made comments about what you believe SHOULD be done here. And I disagree with that STRONGLY.

The "freedom" to hide my religion away in my home or to keep it private is no freedom at all.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by paraclete

You are right Tom we don't restrict them here although I personally think their unwillingness to assimulate is an affront and an insult, I can give them a little slack but it is weird to see women dressed that way in our streets and it is the women not the men who make themselves obvious so it is discrimination against women and we should not allow it to be practised. We do not see the men wearing their traditional dress

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I think the way muslim women dress goes way beyond a preference for them. There are certain laws in their religion that demand that they (women) dress the way they do. Men, however, can expose more flesh when out in public.

paraclete, you may think it is weird and an insult but we do have to respect their beliefs to a certain extent, as we do here in Canada, we being multinational on our streets and in our public venues. I, for one, don't find it insulting and also find that it is being relaxed somewhat in their young people as they assimilate into our society.

If we are all going to live together in harmony, then we must all realize that a little give and take must be observed in all things, IMO.

Gosh, in our enlightened age some of us can't even tolerate seeing a new mother nursing a baby in public even when she observes all the proper techniques not to be too obvious. Some people find that an insult and an affront.

Tick

Elliot, I'm sorry, but I think we misunderstand each other.

The point I was trying to make is the fact that certain minorities demand special treatment simply because they are different. Do other religious groups make these demands or are as vocal as the Muslims?
What France is attempting to do is level the playing field as it where.
I certainly agree with your Jewish quote of "Dinah d'malchuta dinah".

Hi Ben,

I don't see how women wearing burkinis to go swimming equates to them making demands of any sort.

Yes, Muslims do have a habbit of doing that sort of thing, and when they do, I'm the first one to criticize it. For that matter, when Mexican illegals do it here, I'm the first one to jump on the bandwagon to criticize it.

But I don't see how you can say wearing a burkini (and not trying to force anyone else to wear one) equates to demanding special treatment.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by Curlyben

Elliot, I'm sorry, but I think we misunderstand each other.

The point I was trying to make is the fact that certain minorities demand special treatment simply because they are different. Do other religious groups make these demands or are as vocal as the Muslims ??

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Hello:

I'm not sure the discussion can be brought down to a common denominator...

In fact, I think there are certain minorities HERE in the US that demand special treatment because they're different. They get it too... But, what difference does it make it they're a minority or not? Should the majority demand special treatment because they're different than the minority?? No! Neither group should get special treatment...

Oh, by the way.. The majority who demand special treatment HERE in the US, are the Christians... They want the government to OK THEIR stuff in the public square, but nobody els's. To justify it, they call the US a Christian nation... How obtuse?

excon

Here's an interesting turn in this discussion

Swimmers are told to wear burkinis - Telegraph

British pools are holding special Muslim swimming sessions and women are REQUIRED to wear the burkini.

People PEE in swimming pools!! It's a more like a public toilet than a pool! There's nothing hygenic about pools. That's why they have chlorine in them.

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Originally Posted by XOXOlove

people PEE in swiming pools!!! it's a more like a public toilet than a pool! there's nothing hygenic about pools. that's why they have chlorine in them.

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So... does that mean you support the rights of Muslims to wear burkinis in the pool or support the French officials in banning it?

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

So... does that mean you support the rights of Muslims to wear burkinis in the pool or support the French officials in banning it?

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Oh! I support the muslims. I was just trying to say that pools are already dirty.. nothing can make them more dirty.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

here's an interesting turn in this discussion

Swimmers are told to wear burkinis - Telegraph

British pools are holding special Muslim swimming sessions and women are REQUIRED to wear the burkini.

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That's the sort of thing that I'm referring to.

Now if this was MALE only swimming there would be uproar!!