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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Wow, we went from you not being in Canada to my mother's untreated cancer. Nice segue. My mother is recovering nicely from hip replacement surgery. All went well, staff at hospital and rehab are excellent and we will never see a medical bill, nor deal with an insurance company nor need the services of a lawyer.

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Questions:
How long did your mother have to wait for the visit with her primary care physician to check out the pain in her hip?
How long did it take for your mother's doctor to figure out that the pain in her hip was due to a need for a hip replacement?
How long did it take for your mother to see the specialist once her PCP figured out what was wrong with her?
How long did your mother wait before she was approved for the surgery?

How much less time would each of these things have taken in the USA? What was the quality of care compared to the USA?

And finally, what percentage of your income is (or was) your mom paying in taxes... all taxes, not just federal income tax? I include local income taxes, sales tax, vat tax, capital gains tax, everything. And how does that compare to taxes in the USA?

You may not see a bill for your mother's care, but that doesn't mean the care is free. You or your mother are still paying for it with much higher taxes than we have here in the USA. And if you compare the care in Canada OVERALL (not just your single case) with care in the USA, you will find that you (as a nation, not you in specific) are paying more for less quality and slower response. Again, as a nation, not in your specific case.

This is a fact. It is a fact that has even been acknowledged by your own government, whether you wish to admitt it or not. That is why your government has tried to implement waiting period limits... they acknowledged that the wait periods were too long. Unfortunately, they haven't been able to fix the problem except by knocking some people off the waiting lists... aka rationing care. But despite the fact that your own government has acknowledged the problems in your system, you continue to insist that the problems don't exist.

Whatever!

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

First of all, the graph is bogus. It just so happens that the government is the single largest real estate holder in the USA owning something like 80% of all undeveloped land in the USA and something like 20% of the buildings in the USA. The fact that they don't call them "business assets" doesn't mean that they don't count. This graph ignores government ownership of real estate completely.

Then there's the amount of assets owned by the Department of Defense... all those tanks, planes, ships, army bases, ammunition, etc. and all the assets necessary to support them. Again, they are not considered "business assets" so they are not taken into consideration in this graph.
Elliot

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You completely missed the point. The graph doesn't take into account "assets" that were owned by the government *before* the change in administration, what's the point in that? It shows the changes since the change in admin. Hey if you want to call me a socialist that's fine, it's no insult. I go with what works. I know what I'm not and that's a pure, no-holds barred, screw-the-other-guy, power-hungry capitalist. That's what messing up your country, the values are all screwed up and it's being reflected in your corrupt government and corporate leaders. Good luck with that!

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I agree, your government is too corrupted to run it right.

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So's yours. You just can't see it.

Questions:
How long did your mother have to wait for the visit with her primary care physician to check out the pain in her hip? She went by ambulance, she broke her femur.
How long did it take for your mother's doctor to figure out that the pain in her hip was due to a need for a hip replacement? None.
How long did it take for your mother to see the specialist once her PCP figured out what was wrong with her? Specialist was at hospital, saw her right away.
How long did your mother wait before she was approved for the surgery? She didn't need to be approved, they scheduled her right in. YOU guys ned the approval, we don't.

How much less time would each of these things have taken in the USA? What was the quality of care compared to the USA? I just posted how good her care was, the family is happy. Who knows what would have happened in the US.

And finally, what percentage of your income is (or was) your mom paying in taxes... all taxes, not just federal income tax? Same as we all pay, don't know the percentage. But we don't whine about it because we're ok with the service rendered.

You may not see a bill for your mother's care, but that doesn't mean the care is free. No one ever said that. We all know how it's paid. You or your mother are still paying for it with much higher taxes than we have here in the USA. Yup, we're ok with that.
And if you compare the care in Canada OVERALL (not just your single case) with care in the USA, you will find that you (as a nation, not you in specific) are paying more for less quality and slower response. Nope. You keep trying to convince me because that is your agenda.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Questions:
How long did your mother have to wait for the visit with her primary care physician to check out the pain in her hip? She went by ambulance, she broke her femur.
How long did it take for your mother's doctor to figure out that the pain in her hip was due to a need for a hip replacement? None.
How long did it take for your mother to see the specialist once her PCP figured out what was wrong with her? Specialist was at hospital, saw her right away.
How long did your mother wait before she was approved for the surgery? She didn't need to be approved, they scheduled her right in. YOU guys ned the approval, we don't.

How much less time would each of these things have taken in the USA? What was the quality of care compared to the USA? I just posted how good her care was, the family is happy. Who knows what would have happened in the US.

And finally, what percentage of your income is (or was) your mom paying in taxes... all taxes, not just federal income tax? Same as we all pay, don't know the percentage. But we don't whine about it because we're ok with the service rendered.

You may not see a bill for your mother's care, but that doesn't mean the care is free. No one ever said that. We all know how it's paid. You or your mother are still paying for it with much higher taxes than we have here in the USA. Yup, we're ok with that.
And if you compare the care in Canada OVERALL (not just your single case) with care in the USA, you will find that you (as a nation, not you in specific) are paying more for less quality and slower response. Nope. You keep trying to convince me because that is your agenda.

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Ahhh... it was an emergency situation, not an elective surgery. That's pretty instantaneous in the USA too, and if you can't pay, you still get medical care anyway. Your universal health system is no improvement over our system there... and it costs you more in taxes than it does for the guy wh can't pay in the USA.

So what you are saying is that you know you pay more than we do, and just don't care. Fine by me. Just don't tout your system as a money-saving endeavour.

But the point of the system is to help those who CAN'T pay. I wonder if the people who are struggling financially are happy to be paying such high tax rates.

The average American worker pays about $3,400 per year for medical insurance (his employer covers the rest) and is covered for everything. In Canada, your taxes are so much higher than ours that you are paying more than $3,400 more than we are in taxes. We're paying less than you are in taxes.

Now, if you want to tell me that you're OK paying more, that's fine. But don't tell me that the Canadian system saves you money and therefore helps people in financial need, because your system is costing you more in taxes than our system costs us on average.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

But don't tell me that the Canadian system saves you money

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I never said that. I alluded to the fact the we don't go bankrupt due to medical bills.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I never said that. I alluded to the fact the we don't go bankrupt due to medical bills.

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No, you go bankrupt due to taxes... which are driven in large part by medical expenses.

Which means your people go bankrupt due to medical bills. The difference is that it's the GOVERNMENT'S medical bills rather than bills in your name.

Big deal!

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

No, you go bankrupt due to taxes... which are driven in large part by medical expenses.

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Absolutely not. But nice try.

I personally think the number of people in the USA without any health insurance is probably closer to 100 million. I have no idea where they come up with the 15% figure. Ridiculously low number if you ask me. The 15% would be all the illegal aliens then and that figure is wrong anyway if you are counting just them and not Americans.

Health insurance is a real scam if you ask me. They already made car insurance mandatory (but the illegals don't even bother getting car insurance) and now they're trying to push health insurance down our throats. Does anyone really think the illegals are going to register for health insurance? No.

If more Americans just stopped eating out at Micky D's, BK, KFC, pizza joints and started eating sensible foods (yes, I'm dreaming here) then a lot of health problems would not exist. Ban the advertising of pizza, fast burgers, etc on TV like they banned tobacco ads years ago and the populace would be much, much healthier in the long run. But then who would have the guts to pass that sort of legislation on junk food advertising? Not any of our cash cow politicians, that's for sure. They have their hands deep into the pockets of Big Pharma and like the wads of cash they keep pulling out of the magic bottomless pit pocket.

In Russia they have universal health coverage for citizens ONLY. You must prove you are a Russian citizen to get treatment. They will treat tourists for free though but not treat the illegal aliens for free. The US should institute a similar policy and stick to it. The treatment for free of all the illegal aliens in California really trashed that state financially having to close many hospitals.

If a person in Canada has to go through the normal channels to get say a hip replacement due to the hip deteriorating it would not be instantaneous service. It would be many months or weeks before such major surgery would be given permission to be done. Accident problems get immediate attention. Rightly so. But for 98% of everyone who needs a hip replacement I'm positive it's many months or weeks of waiting. Can't be any other way to get around their system.

The universal health plan in the US is also a terrific way of population control by withholding services to the elderly. Also, it would curtail extremely expensive operations from routinely happening. Only the rich or some politician's relative would be eligible to receive these "expensive procedures or treatments". The rest of the population would just be put on indefinite hold and told to come back next month (year, whatever). I do forsee this happening here in the USA. Sooner than anyone can even imagine.

Elliot,

I'm not suggesting that the Government will do a better job running health care in your country. In fact I don't really care.. I was simply suggesting that links to articles on a few failures in other countries systems isn't what I call a strong argument.

I think your best argument is the question you pose about what makes people think that a government with such a wasteful history would do a good job with health. That's a good question. But I think Excon makes some good points in rebuttal. Particularly about the insurance companies.

The fact that this is such a big issue must mean there is a problem.

Health care in Australia is an issue. Always will be. But generally it is so easy. Most people are happy. We don't have such strong debate because of this. Sure there is the odd botch up, mis-run hospital, or wasteful spending but generally everyone gets the care they require at little or no cost.

The fact that it such a big issues in the US and a debate that seems to have been going on for some time suggests to me that there is a problem. Your answer to the problem seems to be to simply go on doing exactly what you are doing now... Others feel there is a need for change if problems are to be fixed. Your instant dismissal of other models based on some negative articles dragged up by a conservative with the same opinion as you isn't going to convince the people who feel change is required.

That was my point.

http://www2.nationalreview.com/image...2009_large.jpg

Oh I get it, he going to stick a finger up your a$$. Hahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Oh I get it, he gonna stick a finger up your a$$. Hahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha.

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In the US we refer to that as he's telling the American public to "bend over."

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

In the US we refer to that as he's telling the American public to "bend over."

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More anal sex similes? Interesting.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

More anal sex similes? Interesting.

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Get a clue, NK. Connect that with the image of Obama as the doctor and you should easily be able to come up with what I mean. Get your mind out of the gutter.

Dude you chose that pic to post, not me.

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They already made car insurance mandatory (but the illegals don't even bother getting car insurance) and now they're trying to push health insurance down our throats.

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I don't want to deal with the illegals aspect to this comment . But indeed the plan is to force everyone into some form of health insurance whether they want it or not. There are a significant part of the uninsured who have chosen to not contract for health insurance . For some it is an economic decision but also there are many more young adults who would choose things like enhanced cell phone options ;large flat screen HDTV ,cars that are less than the economy model ,and frequent dinners out over the purchase of health coverage.

But don't despair . The plan working it's way through Congress would force them to sign on to a health plan regardless that they would make other choices with their money.

The Senate version imposes fines of $1,000 for uninsured people who decline coverage. Families will pay even more if they don't sign on.It's modeled on the Taxachusett plan, which also imposes a $1,000 fine.

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The fact that this is such a big issue must mean there is a problem.

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And yet 80% of Americans (243 million )have indicated we like our current coverage and doctors. Even if the system needs tweeking to deal with the few who are uninsured and would like to be covered ,it does not mean the whole system needs to be scrapped and replaced with a draconian alternative .

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Dude you chose that pic to post, not me.

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I guess you can't tell the difference between a gloved finger and some other 'gloved' anatomical appendage.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I guess you can't tell the difference between a gloved finger and some other 'gloved' anatomical appendage.

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Where does that gloved finger go?

Geez NK, figure it out.