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Originally Posted by J_9

Shouldn't we support them? I know I support my son who will be leaving on November 29. Whether I believe in his decision or not, he is my son and I support his decisions.

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For once, I will disagree with you. :(
I am sorry to hear your son is going over there, J-9. I have two teenagers and I feel an ache when I think of how it would feel, for you and others.

But I think there's a huge difference between supporting one's children and supporting all their decisions. I am sure you would not support his decision to do something dangerous such as driving too fast or not wearing a seat belt or hurting someone else. This decision is dangerous to him and to the mental well-being of his family.

I do not think you are morally obliged to support an entire war just because your son is involved in it. You can say you love someone and respect their right as a legal adult to make a decision you disagree with. You don't have to advocate for the decision itself. And even if you fully support his decision to enter the military, you don't have to support a particular war.

Of course, if you support the war for other reasons, that's a different matter. I was arguing with your reasoning.

Take care,
Asking

Does anyone here remember that congress voted bi-partisan to go to war in Iraq? You continue to blame Bush when he had the backing of both Democrats and Republicans in Congress who used available intelligence reports.
At least put blame where it belongs and quit using a scapegoat. Doing that doesn't impress me with your smarts.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

available intelligence reports

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We know more now about those and how they came to be.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello Steve:

She is talking about the dead Iraqi's - maybe up to 600,000 of 'em. I'm SURE, that every single one of them died in vain.

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Um, ex, that's what my question was about.

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And, you know what?? OUR dead soldiers died in vain too. The logic that we should continue a failed war because some of our soldiers DIED in it, is one of the most stupid things I've ever heard from a very stupid dufus in chief.

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Iraq has failed? I thought even Obama finally admitted the surge turned the tide. Of course if my logic was "that we should continue a failed war because some of our soldiers DIED" you'd be right, but you know that's not the logic. What's the logic in removing a genocidal dictator and then abandoning the people he oppressed? What's the logic in standing down in Iraq and emboldening their neighbor which has their sights set on Iraq and desires our demise and in the last few days has threatened us with suicide bomber attacks? What's the logic in turning our backs on liberty because we didn't like the price?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

the surge turned the tide

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Even we school teachers know all about that. When the students act up in the hallway during bathroom and drink breaks, and if the teachers can't control them, we get hall monitors (our "surge") to help us ride herd on the naughty ones and keep a close eye on the rest. Eventually, if it's done right, peace is restored and the hall monitors can go back to what they were doing. If it isn't done right, more severe action will be taken.

Sure, Obama agreed with the surge, but, if you remember, he was against going into Iraq in the first place. And oh yes, had we not gone into Iraq in the first place, we wouldn't have needed a surge at all, and an awful lot of people would still be alive.

Of course, once we had gotten to Baghdad (without securing the country as we marched), we shocked and awed and then cleverly sent home the Iraq army, so that took care of the hall monitors that were already trained and in place.

We sure did knock ourselves out doing things that weren't necessary.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Iraq has failed? I thought even Obama finally admitted the surge turned the tide.

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Hello again, Steve:

Turned the tide to what? Where are the WMD's? Did you forget that's why we went? If you wish to rewrite history, then you won...

But, I'm not as gullible or as forgetful as you righty's are. You're just stuck on this word "victory". But, you haven't a clue what that is. Even under McCain, we would be pretty much out by 2010 - and he'd call it victory. Obama is going to have our troops out a little sooner, and he isn't going to call it victory...

But, IRAQ will be the same NO MATTER which president brings our troops home. It won't be defeated and it won't be victorious... It will be a FAILED exercise.

excon

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Sure, Obama agreed with the surge, but, if you remember, he was against going into Iraq in the first place.

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No, Obama did not agree with the surge, he finally admitted it worked - after lying about what he's said all along.

“It is clear at this point that we cannot, through putting in more troops or maintaining the presence that we have, expect that somehow the situation is going to improve, and we have to do something significant to break the pattern that we’ve been in right now.” 10/06

“I am not persuaded that 20,000 additional troops in Iraq is going to solve the sectarian violence there. In fact, I think it will do the reverse.” 1/10/07

“we’re not going to baby sit a civil war.” 1/11/07

“We cannot impose a military solution on what has effectively become a civil war. And until we acknowledge that reality, we can send 15,000 more troops, 20,000 more troops, 30,000 more troops, I don’t know any expert on the region or any military officer that I’ve spoken to privately that believes that that is going to make a substantial difference on the situation on the ground.” 1/14/07

My assessment is that the surge has not worked and we will not see a different report eight weeks from now." 7/18/07

"Finally, in 2006-2007, we started to see that, even after an election, George Bush continued to want to pursue a course that didn't withdraw troops from Iraq but actually
doubled them and initiated a search and at that stage I said very clearly, not only have we not seen improvements, but we're actually worsening, potentially, a situation there." 11/11/07

After all that, Obama claimed he believed it would work all along at the NH debate:.

“I had no doubt, and I said at the time when I opposed the surge, that given how wonderfully our troops perform, if we, uh, place 30,000 more troops in there, then we would see an improvement in the security situation and, would we would see a reduction in the violence.” 1/5/08

Liar, liar, pants on fire Mr, Obama.

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And oh yes, had we not gone into Iraq in the first place, we wouldn't have needed a surge at all, and an awful lot of people would still be alive.

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I've heard and read this line so many times and it's as irrelevant today as it was the first time. It doesn't matter, the fact is we're there so the question is what do we do now? Finish the job or run away?

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Of course, once we had gotten to Baghdad (without securing the country as we marched), we shocked and awed and then cleverly sent home the Iraq army, so that took care of the hall monitors that were already trained and in place.

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As if they were going to suddenly turn their allegiance from Saddam to Bush?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Figure this math out for us, Bobby. What's the percentage of ratings versus views on all Youtube videos? Do you really think most people ever rate ANY Youtube video?

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Who is the "us?" You and your ego? That means it's insignificant enough not to be worthy of rating. Like rubber necking as you pass a wreck. You just slow down traffic as you continue peering through the rear view mirror. I know you hate it when I punch holes in your statements. Just think! I do it 100 percent of the time for FREE! How you like that math? ;)

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

Turned the tide to what? Where are the WMD's? Did you forget that's why we went? If you wish to rewrite history, then you won.....

But, I'm not as gullible or as forgetful as you righty's are. You're just stuck on this word "victory". But, you haven't a clue what that is. Even under McCain, we would be pretty much out by 2010 - and he'd call it victory. Obama is gonna have our troops out a little sooner, and he isn't gonna call it victory...

But, IRAQ will be the same NO MATTER which president brings our troops home. It won't be defeated and it won't be victorious..... It will be a FAILED excercise.

excon

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BINGO! We have a winner here folks!

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Originally Posted by BABRAM

Who is the "us?" You and your ego?! That means it's insignificant enough not to be worthy of rating. Like rubber necking as you pass a wreck. You just slow down traffic as you continue peering through the rear view mirror. I know you hate it when I punch holes in your statements. Just think! I do it 100 percent of the time for FREE! How you like that math?! ;)

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Apparently you failed at math... and logic, statistical analysis, and playing nice with others. Since your argument was about the percentage of ratings, the validity of your argument rests on the probability of ANY video being rated. As one has to sign in as a member to rate videos and most people are not members of Youtube I think it's highly likely that most videos viewed are never rated. I picked this random video and it was viewed 4655 times and rated 25 for a total of .537 percent. I picked the one below it, viewed 238,383 times, rated 1768 times for a percentage of .741 percent. Makes Dear Mr. Obama look like a smash hit at "a little over a small amount of 29 percent."

Stuff that in your ego and chew on it.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Apparently you failed at math ... and logic, statistical analysis, and playing nice with others. Since your argument was about the percentage of ratings, the validity of your argument rests on the probability of ANY video being rated. As one has to sign in as a member to rate videos and most people are not members of Youtube I think it's highly likely that most videos viewed are never rated. I picked this random video and it was viewed 4655 times and rated 25 for a total of .537 percent. I picked the one below it, viewed 238,383 times, rated 1768 times for a percentage of .741 percent. Makes Dear Mr. Obama look like a smash hit at "a little over a small amount of 29 percent."

Stuff that in your ego and chew on it.

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29 percent is huge, you're right, but like you say, Bab got their math wrong, it's actually 0.34%, somewhere around half of the percentage of the videos you cited. But I don't think this tells you anything. It just means that people forwarded this video to their moms and grandmoms who don't know how or why to rate a video. *shrug*. I try to stay out of these debates. As a brit it's not something I'm really able to take part in. But I'm happy to point out bad math and people putting importance on things which in reality mean nothing.

I'd like to point out that no one is better off under a dictator. I don't care if there was less killing. I for one believe in freedom and while it may not be Americas place to bring it to everyone. I do think it is something that everyone should understand how important freedom is.

The quote is "Give me liberty or give me death." not give me liberty or at least allow me to make enough to feed my family.

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Originally Posted by Capuchin

29 percent is huge, you're right, but like you say, Bab got their math wrong, it's actually 0.34%, somewhere around half of the percentage of the videos you cited. But I don't think this tells you anything. It just means that people forwarded this video to their moms and grandmoms who don't know how or why to rate a video. *shrug*. I try to stay out of these debates. As a brit it's not something I'm really able to take part in. But i'm happy to point out bad math and people putting importance on things which in reality mean nothing.

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Thank you Capuchin, you're right and that was my point, ratings don't tell us a thing.

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Originally Posted by excon

Turned the tide to what? Where are the WMD's? Did you forget that's why we went? If you wish to rewrite history, then you won...

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I'd still like to know where the WMD's are myself, but then you guys like to forget that the EVERYONE believed they had them, including that pinnacle of excellence the UN - which is largely what all those resolutions were about.

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But, I'm not as gullible or as forgetful as you righty's are. You're just stuck on this word "victory"...

But, IRAQ will be the same NO MATTER which president brings our troops home. It won't be defeated and it won't be victorious... It will be a FAILED exercise.

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I'm not stuck on the word "victory," I'm just not as cynical about Iraq as you are.

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Originally Posted by Capuchin

It just means that people forwarded this video to their moms and grandmoms who don't know how or why to rate a video. *shrug*.

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Hey Crapuchin, your granny knows how to click into watching a YouTube video, but not how to rate what was viewed? :p And Stevie found another video that wasn't worth no more than a look-see. ;) (yaaaawwwwnnnn... )

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Originally Posted by BABRAM

Hey Crapuchin, your granny knows how to click into watching a youtube video, but not how to rate what was viewed?! :p And Stevie found another video that wasn't worth no more than a look-see. ;) (yaaaawwwwnnnn...)

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Crapuchin? Glad we're having an adult debate here.

I don't think my point was really that she wouldn't know how to, but rather that she wouldn't have any reason to. We don't all have time to rate things on the internet.

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Originally Posted by BABRAM

Hey Crapuchin, your granny knows how to click into watching a youtube video, but not how to rate what was viewed?! :p And Stevie found another video that wasn't worth no more than a look-see. ;) (yaaaawwwwnnnn...)

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Gee, Bobby, maybe while your off and your wife has you by the testicles she can teach you the word "random," as in "I picked this random video" which was the first one on Youtube's home page at the time. Or go ahead, you pick a random video, everyone pick a random video and show us the ratings percentages.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Gee, Bobby, maybe while your off and your wife has you by the testicles ...

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You are hitting new lows every day. Enjoy your lonely internet life.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

You are hitting new lows every day. Enjoy your lonely internet life.

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Ah, NK, I love you, too. I call it like I see it, apparently you only see what you want or you think unrestrained arrogance, complete disregard for facts and calling someone "Crapuchin" elevates the discussion.

Steve
P.S. As for my "lonely internet life," your profile currently shows 6098 posts to my 1045. Looks like you're almost 6 times lonelier than me. :D

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

P.S. As for my "lonely internet life," your profile currently shows 6098 posts to my 1045. Looks like you're almost 6 times lonelier than me.

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You --> Join Date: Jan 2007
Me --> Join Date: Dec 2004

Another at your attempt at misleading people. Also my livelihood is based on being on the internet.