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Originally Posted by tomder55

Use of a SWAT team because the father is a "self-proclaimed constitutionalist" is troubling .

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't all Americans be "self-proclaimed Constitutionalists?"

What's wrong with holding to the ideals and standards and LAWS set forth in the Constitution?

It seems to me that the Constitution is becoming more and more an instrument for the government to enforce its will, and less and less an instrument of the people to hold that government in check.

Hello again, tom:

I don't disagree with you at all. The cops have WAYYYY too much power. The sheriff too. But, who gave it to 'em, and who lets them keep it? Why it was the right wingers, of course. You thought they were only going to use their guns on the bad guys. Well, guess what?

When you give them the power to try your children in an ADULT court, then you shouldn't be surprised when they think have control over your children's health care too.

I think they should stay OUT of child rearing all together. If a kid get's into trouble, you treat him like a kid. If a parent wants to treat their kid, let 'em.

excon

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But, who gave it to 'em, and who lets them keep it? Why it was the right wingers, of course.

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Really ? Was it not Clinton that used Federal Agents to torch the Branch Davidian compound ? Or to take Elian Gonzalez at gun point ?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Really ? Was it not Clinton that used Federal Agents to torch the Branch Davidian compound ? Or to take Elian Gonzalez at gun point ?

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Now tom, it's hardly fair to raise the specter of Clinton's "absolute power" years... or considering the candidates we have, is it?

I guess the people have reached their limit with the abuses at the top. Let the revolution begin! Of course all bets seem to be pointing to american citizens just rolling over and taking it ever so gently.

Hello again:

Guys? Can you stay on point? I know you want to blame Clinton and the Goricle for everything. But, Dudes. This is about the LOCAL cops - not the politicians.

And, PLEASE don't tell me that your right wing dudes on the Supreme Court don't side with the cops all the time. That's exactly why you want them there. You're just bummed that the cops turned their guns on these people. All I'm saying is, you shouldn't be surprised.

excon

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Really ? Was it not Clinton that used Federal Agents to torch the Branch Davidian compound ? Or to take Elian Gonzalez at gun point ?

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I don’t believe it would have mattered which administration was in office, the results would have been the same. What took place was intuitionally ingrained.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I guess the people have reached their limit with the abuses at the top. Let the revolution begin! Of course all bets seem to be pointing to american citizens just rolling over and taking it ever so gently.

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Not all of them.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again:

Guys? Can you stay on point? I know you wanna blame Clinton and the Goricle for everything. But, Dudes. This is about the LOCAL cops - not the politicians.

And, PLEASE don't tell me that your right wing dudes on the Supreme Court don't side with the cops all the time. That's exactly why you want them there. You're just bummed that the cops turned their guns on these people. All I'm saying is, you shouldn't be surprised.

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Well excon the justice mon, I've had mixed experiences with law enforcement. I have a kid in a California prison, a brother that's a Sargent in the local Sheriff's department and I've had both pleasant and unpleasant experiences with the locals. I'm actually for balance, and I certainly don't approve of locals gone wild - whether it's SWAT turning their guns on a family for apparently no good reason or little Johnny law writing tickets with an attitude. They do - or are supposed to - work for us.

As an aside, you'd probably get a kick out of our Sheriff's election this year. The current sheriff and his former top deputy running against him are both under indictment. I can't believe this idiot got elected in the first place, but I hope our good citizens will have the brains to make a different choice this time.

Steve,

They sound about as sharp as some of our guys. Did you hear about our SWAT team debacle a few years ago where one of the team members shot his buddy in the back of the head during an op?

I figger if it's up to these guys to keep me safe, I'll take my chances on my own, thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by kindj

Steve,

They sound about as sharp as some of our guys. Did you hear about our SWAT team debacle a few years ago where one of the team members shot his buddy in the back of the head during an op?

I figger if it's up to these guys to keep me safe, I'll take my chances on my own, thank you very much.

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I either missed that or forgot about it. Our guys are just corrupt, they're not shooting each other - yet.

My local police operate on an entrepreneurial basis, it works, for them.

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

My local police operate on an entrepreneurial basis, it works, for them.

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Sounds like how New Orleans used to be.

From my EMT days, I happen to know that the EMTs/Paramedics had no right to enter the home without permission.

I also know that its not hard for a parent who is also a paramedic to take care of his own kid when he gets hurt. A paramedic would know when he's over his head and when to get his kid to the ER.

Furthermore, after social services (notice the initials of those words) saw that the kid was fine (they called him out of the bathtub fer godsakes), their job was OVER. Their job is to ensure the safety of the kid. They did that. Mission accomplished, let's go get a beer. Once the safety of the kid was established, they had no reason or right to petition for police intervention.

The judge granting the warrant did so without proper cause. There was no evidence that the kid was in any sort of trouble, no evidence of any sort of danger or criminal activity, and thus no probable cause for a warrant.

And even if the warrant was in order, I see no reason to call out SWAT to handle a situation that could just as easily have been handled by regular police. There is nothing in this article that talks about a danger of weapons in the home, or the father being anything other than verbally beligerant... not physically, just verbally.

So by any reasonable standard, this was a case of unwarranted and illegal government intervention in a private domestic affair.

That's scary.

As to the question of whether being armed would have helped that situation or not... let's put it this way: if someone wants to invade my home illegally by busting through the front door, I would want to be armed to protect myself. Who wouldn't?

Furthermore, I truly believe that such incidents would be more prevalent and more common if nobody were armed. Cops and social services, and anyone else with a modicum of "authority" would conduct illegal raids every day, without having to worry about their own personal safety. If only the government can be armed, then nobody can ever stop that government from doing anything it wants with impunity. But half a million or a million civilians with guns in this country are the check-and-balance that keeps the government from usurping authority that way.

So would a gun have helped in this specific situation? I don't know. Probably not, based on what I have heard. But gun ownership DOES keep such an occurrence from becoming more common. And THAT is the point of the Second Amendment.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Furthermore, I truly believe that such incidents would be more prevalent and more common if nobody were armed. Cops and social services, and anyone else with a modicum of "authority" would conduct illegal raids every day, without having to worry about their own personal safety. If only the government can be armed, then nobody can ever stop that governement from doing anything it wants with impunity. But half a million or a million civilians with guns in this country are the check-and-balance that keeps the government from usurping authority that way.

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That's the point I was hoping to get across.

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Furthermore, I truly believe that such incidents would be more prevalent and more common if nobody were armed. Cops and social services, and anyone else with a modicum of "authority" would conduct illegal raids every day, without having to worry about their own personal safety.

Elliot

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They aren't down here. Never heard of such a thing happening here. That's not a personal belief like your is either. Its fact!

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Originally Posted by Skell

They arent down here. Never heard of such a thing happening here. Thats not a personal belief like your is either. Its fact!

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Same where I live. It would be interesting to see what would happen if these internet tough guys did in fact start shooting at cops and federal agents.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Same where I live. It would be interesting to see what would happen if these internet tough guys did in fact start shooting at cops and federal agents.

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Besides sounding like a rather warped curiosity, if you're referring to the experts here making the point it's a rather insulting image being painted of a couple of good guys.

Steve
P.S. And it isn't "half a million or a million civilians with guns in this country," almost half the population owns at least one gun so it would be more like 150 million armed citizens. That is a force to be reckoned with.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

It would be interesting to see what would happen if these internet tough guys did in fact start shooting at cops and federal agents.

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My aunt is a retired DEA agent, before that she worked for the U.S. State Department. My brother is a former federal agent (U.S. Marshal's Service). Two of my best friends are cops, one with a Sheriff's Dept. and one a local cop. I myself spent about a year working with the DEA in Panama and California.

I say all that just to say this: the amount of power these agencies have is frightening. What's more frightening is the fact that they have it not because of the Constitution, but in spite of it.

I'm no historian, but it seems to me that before any country went fascist, communist, socialist, or whatever other negative "-ist" you choose, there was first a surge in the authority and scope of not the military, but the nation's police forces.

I'm not saying that is what's happening here, but one does well to know a little bit about history so the warning signs (if there are any) can be seen.

I hope and pray there NEVER comes a day when an American citizen has a need to draw down on a cop. I love cops, but I hate what they (as an overall group) are becoming.

In some areas, I think the term "brownshirts" might not be too far away.

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Originally Posted by kindj

In some areas, I think the term "brownshirts" might not be too far away.

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Hello Dennis:

At one time or another, regardless of one's political persuasion, the advent of the police state becomes obvious to those who care to look.

Right now, your co-horts on the right champion the police and especially the DEA because it suits their political agenda. What they don't realize is that when the rights of the unpopular get trampled upon, their rights are next.

Some of the people here think that insuring the rights of the downtrodden is coddling them. You hear the cry here all the time. The drug war would be successful if we only cracked down a little harder... Little do they know, that if they don't guard those people's rights,, well, you get my drift. Cracking down, of course, means giving the DEA even MORE power.

Then, the Patriot Act gave them even MORE power than that. If torturing a terrorist works, how long before they decide to torture our ordinary prisoners? What if they think one of them has information that can save lives?? Isn't that the justification??

In my view, I think the term “brownshirts” is UPON us.

You see on television every day how your ordinary cop operates. They stomp on peoples heads, they wack them unmercifully with their nightsticks. They throw them to the ground. I'm not talking about the "liberal" news, either. I'm talking about the popular cop shows.

I think the kind of behavior we have come to accept, is unacceptable. I truly think that most of us view that behavior as abhorrent and an anathema to our values as a nation. Course, I would have said the same thing about torture, and I would have been wrong.

It's possible that fascism lies just underneath our skins. Didn't somebody say that when it arrives, it will be wrapped up in the American flag and the Bible??

I'm going to stop now. I only wish to say, that's it's refreshing to see, that you can actually see, and you see it from within. Maybe Texas ain't so bad. Both you and speech are cool dudes.

excon