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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I have never said I support "current" abstinence education. In fact, I believe public schools should be teaching reading, writing and arithmetic and leave the rest for responsible parents to decide. Yeah, I know that leaves those kids who don't have responsible parents and that is a problem, but for the millions of responsible moms dads out there the government has no business intruding in personal areas such as sex and teaching or espousing values that run counter to the parents.

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The millions of responsible parents out there can opt their kids out of the programs. It's the millions of IRresponsible parents out there who make organizations like PP necessary.

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That's what the very proponents of sex education expect when it comes to religion and political values in school - and the "right to choose" (or right to privacy, however they look at it today) for both minors and adults - it's only fair and consistent for them to respect the right of parents to choose how to raise their children as well without interference and subversion.

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Again, the fairness comes with the parents having the ability to opt their kids out of the programs. I fully support that, and if my kid went to a school that taught abstinence-only, you bet your a$$ I'd opt them out.

I think we're meshing threads here, speech! :)

And obviously these kids parents were failing them, too, as pregnancy was like 7 of 60 girlsbefore my class graduated... and if no one watches out for these kids, shouldn't the school do it?

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

The millions of responsible parents out there can opt their kids out of the programs. It's the millions of IRresponsible parents out there who make organizations like PP necessary.

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Surely you can guess I don't think PP is necessary at all :D

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Again, the fairness comes with the parents having the ability to opt their kids out of the programs. I fully support that, and if my kid went to a school that taught abstinence-only, you bet your a$$ I'd opt them out.

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Works for me. Now if both sides would get that through their thick skulls we might begin to get somewhere :)

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Originally Posted by charlotte234s

Can anyone prove that? If so, how? How many kids do you think don't know about condoms?


George Washington University did a study on the results after abstinence only sex-ed and found it to be failing. And honestly, in my high school there were abstinence only sex ed and some kids did not understand proper condom usage or thought that one birth control pill would protect them from pregnancy. It was an outrage, theywere screwing these kids by not teaching them right.

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Charlotte, it's interesting that so many have raised the issue of the "failure" of abstinence only education when responding to me, as I haven't advocated abstinence only education. I don't think our government should be teaching either, especially since they can't even seem to be able to teach kids basic math.

I'm not saying you did, I'm saying that they need to teach contraception. I'm saying that condoms should be available to kids.

PP isn't necessary?

Why not just teach kids that having sex makes their penises fall off and that you sex makes them go to Hell.

Ignorance will never help anyone. PP helps people learn, gives them help, gives them options and choices. I think although I'm a Christian that church programs aren't necessary personally, but I don't make the decisions for the world and neither do you, so before you say something isn't necessary put yourself in the shoes of the people who benefit from it.

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Originally Posted by charlotte234s

I'm not saying you did, I'm saying that they need to teach contraception. I'm saying that condoms should be available to kids.

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Um, they are.

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Originally Posted by charlotte234s

PP isn't necessary?

Why not just teach kids that having sex makes their penises fall off and that you sex makes them go to Hell.

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LOL, I love it when people take it to the extreme for no apparent reason.

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Ignorance will never help anyone. PP helps people learn, gives them help, gives them options and choices. I think although I'm a Christian that church programs aren't necessary personally, but I don't make the decisions for the world and neither do you, so before you say something isn't necessary put yourself in the shoes of the people who benefit from it.

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I'm not trying to make decisions for the world, I just gave my opinion. My opinion is PP is an evil, subversive organization responsible for the deaths of more children in this country than anyone else. I find they're hiding behind "health care" an insult to the human race, and their continued support for the erosion of parental authority to be just what you complain of - making decisions for others.

[QUOTE=speechlesstx]Surely you can guess I don't think PP is necessary at all :D [QUOTE]

I know you don't, but you think that, it seems, because of your negative experience with them. You appear to ignore the GOOD they have done, or could do. You don't appear to acknowledge the women in this country who don't have a support system at home, who don't have anyone educating them about sex and who, in a time of need have an organization to go to. Not everyone comes from a loving, supportive family who will be there for you in your time of need. These girls need to have someone to turn to for information on women's health and their options in accidental pregnancy situations. Would Planned Parenthood by any other name be as evil?

I know you had a bad (horrible) experience with PP, but, in my opinion, that one instance doesn't make the entire organization "evil". Perhaps if I knew the intimate details of your experience I would change my mind, but given what I know, I don't think PP is the only party at fault.

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My opinion is PP is an evil, subversive organization responsible for the deaths of more children in this country than anyone else. I find they're hiding behind "health care" an insult to the human race, and their continued support for the erosion of parental authority to be just what you complain of - making decisions for others.

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Now who's taking it to the extreme? ;)

I don't think they should.

Why is planned parenthood evil? Because they offer abortion services to women? So now, not only can a girl not get a condom at school or BC through the school nurse, but she can't find help if she wants to abort the baby she created because of her lack of information or assistance. I wasn't taking anything to the extreme, I was mocking the way you sound. I'm not saying give condoms and BC to 12 year old, but to girls in high school, definitely, their parents may not support them and may not allow them to do what they need to do to protect themselves because they are trying to keep them from doing something they're obviously going to anyway.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

My opinion is PP is an evil, subversive organization responsible for the deaths of more children in this country than anyone else.

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That sounds like someone harboring a lot of anger and hatred.

Think about the world we live in today. There is influences every where that tells kids that sex is fun, it feels good, it's a game, it makes you a grown up and there is no consequences. And yes I will say it…parents plays a big part in what kids do with their spare time. You put satellite TV in the kids room to watch what ever they please. You let them listen to sexually explicit music. You give them there own cell phones and computers with out keeping track of what they are doing and who they are talking to. You get divorces and have your boyfriend/ girlfriends stay over while your children are in the next room. You are so busy trying to keep up with the Jones you don't have time to keep up with where your kids are or what they are doing. You fool yourselves into thinking that a 13 year old is mature enough to make the right decision and forget that they are still kids. You give them freedoms at 13 to run around and do as they please that 16 year olds probably shouldn't have. If other parents or teachers confront you about your child's behavior you go into a rampage, “ Not my little angel!” God forbid that they might need a hand on the butt as a form of punishment once in a while….Oh no that's abuse! You treat them like little miniature adults they are not, they are kids! You don't see what is right in front of your eyes, you don't listen to them when they speak and you are embarrassed to talk to them about sex. Then you wonder why they are having sex! Sure there are exceptions where teen girls and boys end up with babies even though their parents did everything right, but in general as long as we have public schools with kids who's parents are not being responsible this will go on forever. Now that I got that off my chest….
Statistics shows that a lot of teens have sex by the time they are 14. It is better they know how to protect them self's from HIV, pregnancy and STD's and they need to have access to the tools to protect themselves if they do decide to have sex.

Besides, if they're going to do it, they're going to do it, there's a point where a kid starts taking their own chances and making their own decisions and sometimes it doesn't matter what the parents do. Keeping them ignorant and unable to get protection is just stupid.

Aside from the moral implications of this entire conversation--who knows a teen that did/does NOT have the attitude "It happens, but statistics show that it probably won't happen to ME. Especially not if I'm CAREFUL!"

They apply that to their sex lives, their driving, their attitude towards death.

It's not just condoms anymore, stonewilder. There is a school in Maine which is providing birth control pills to pre-teens. That's where the bigger controversy lies.

FOXNews.com - School Board Approves Birth Control Prescriptions at Maine Middle School - Health News | Current Health News | Medical News

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

It's not just condoms anymore, stonewilder. There is a school in Maine which is providing birth control pills to pre-teens. That's where the bigger controversy lies.

FOXNews.com - School Board Approves Birth Control Prescriptions at Maine Middle School - Health News | Current Health News | Medical News

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Ok I missed that part of it. I can admit that passing out birth control pills is taking it a step too far with out the parents permission. I say that for two reasons. One a parent needs to know what medications their kids are on and two, if they are using birth control that means they aren't likely to be using the condoms.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

That sounds like someone harboring a lot of anger and hatred.

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The word is contempt. :D

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Originally Posted by charlotte234s

Why is planned parenthood evil? Because they offer abortion services to women?

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For my personal beef with PP, click here.

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So now, not only can a girl not get a condom at school or BC through the school nurse, but she can't find help if she wants to abort the baby she created because of her lack of information or assistance.

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Seriously now, since when is it the school's place to manage youth's sex lives? You don't find it a little disturbing that a 15 year old girl can't get a drivers license, can't buy a beer, a cigarette or go to an R-rated movie but it's OK for her to get an abortion? There's something very wrong with that, and very wrong with such a callous disregard for human life, for that "baby she created" that people would actually defend abortions for kids for the sake of convenience.

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I wasn't taking anything to the extreme, I was mocking the way you sound. I'm not saying give condoms and BC to 12 year old, but to girls in high school, definitely, their parents may not support them and may not allow them to do what they need to do to protect themselves because they are trying to keep them from doing something they're obviously going to anyway.

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Mocking, even better, lol. It's interesting how anyone that shows deserved contempt for PP and the chaos they've helped create gets mocked. Do you not find it ironic and inconsistent to mock me for fighting for the right to privacy - the right for parents to raise their children without government or Planned Parenthood interference - while a group that bases its abortion defense on "privacy rights" fights against that parental right to privacy?

Here's the thing on your last point - it's not just justifying this condom giveaway because "they're obviously going to anyways" - it's a surrender. Why should we surrender to the possibility of a future of guilt, shame, torment for our children? Why should we just give up and say "they're obviously going to anyways?" Aren't they worth more than that?

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Originally Posted by Synnen

Aside from the moral implications of this entire conversation--who knows a teen that did/does NOT have the attitude "It happens, but statistics show that it probably won't happen to ME. Especially not if I'm CAREFUL!"

They apply that to their sex lives, their driving, their attitude towards death.

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You are absolutely right, and that's a big reason why I would never trust my children in the hands of PP or the government.