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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

NK, I have actually read that on Teenwire, so if I can find the quote again I will certainly link to it.

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I can't find the quote I recall, but what's left on the site is all over the map.

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Planned Parenthood defines "abstinence" as not having any sex play at all.

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But...

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Planned Parenthood defines "outercourse" as any kind of sex play with a partner that isn't intercourse.

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And...

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However, whether people who practice outercourse would be considered sexually abstinent by other people would depend entirely on each individual's definition of sexual abstinence.

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Or yet...

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Most people define "virginity" as not having had vaginal intercourse — but that definition leaves a lot of room for other activities, like oral and anal sex.

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And then...

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There are two kinds of abstinence [periodic and continuous]. Both ways can prevent pregnancy by keeping a man's ejaculate and pre-ejaculate out of the vagina.

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And finally...

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Foreplay 411: Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Not Doing It

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"Outercuorse" of course is "kissing, massage, masturbation, "frottage" (rubbing bodies together), sharing fantasies — including cybersex and phone sex, anal sex play (exploring one another's anus/rectum with hands, mouths), and oral sex play," but to Planned Parenthood it is "not doing it."

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

NK, I have actually read that on Teenwire, so if I can find the quote again I will certainly link to it.

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I found this:

Before we get into more details about abstinence, let's define our terms. People interpret "sex," "abstinence," and "outercourse" in different ways.

We take it that you mean "vaginal intercourse" when you say your friend is having "sex," even though it could mean something else. Planned Parenthood defines "sex" as any kind of sex play — from masturbation to intercourse.


Planned Parenthood defines "outercourse" as any kind of sex play with a partner that isn't intercourse.


Planned Parenthood defines "abstinence" as not having any sex play at all. Not having any sex play at all is 100 percent effective in preventing sexually transmitted infections and pregnancy.
According to our definitions, Emily's friend is having outercourse, and may be at risk for sexually transmitted infection, whether or not she considers herself a virgin.


Which indicates they define abstinece as NO touchy-touchy at all.

In Focus: Abstinence: Who, What, When, Why, and How! — teenwire.com

Speech,
I agree, parts of that site make me uncomfortable if I knew my 12 year old were browsing it. But then again, as Jillean mentions better there then hearing misinformation to promote abstinence.

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Originally Posted by Chery

If 'vegan' means vegetarian.. then they don't have to work too hard at preventing overpopulation because IMO, protein from meat is a needed building block for development of the human. The body has a way of sending signals when essential nutrition is missing to have a healthy and functioning reproductive system. An example of this is women with eating disorders such as A and B - the body reverts back and does not even ovulate in most cases.

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Hi Chery, I've been working with a nutritionist on a book about diet recently. He has been teaching nutrition at Rutgers University for 50 years and is not a vegetarian himself (nor am I), but when I asked him if there was any reason not to be a vegetarian, nutritionally, he said no. He said there is nothing in meat that we can't get from plants. In fact, he added that the protein in some plants is of a better quality than what's in most of the meat that most people eat. He said meat from older animals is full of collagen and contains poorly balanced amino acids. But most Americans like meat that has fat in it and that comes from older animals. I'm not promoting vegetarianism, but I just thought that was interesting. I always thought we needed some meat too, but apparently not.
Asking

asking

True enough but it would be difficult to get the combinations of complex proteins that are contained in meat from a single plant source. You would need to consume a carefully planned combinations of legumes and other plants to get your protein requirements. It can be done obviously .

Edit . Soy beans comes the closest.

Sorry, speech, but some of your quotes are pulled out of context to make it look like PP says oral and anal can be done while still being abstinent or that they are inconsistent with their definition.

Firstly, they define abstinent as "no sex play", which you acknowledge in your first quote. Your second quote gives their definition of "outercourse" which they define as "sex play" which means they consider engaging in "outercourse" means you aren't abstinent.

Your third and fourth quotes reference what OTHER people define "abstinent" as, not PP.

Your fifth quote is taken WAY out of context. "Periodic abstinence" is for women who are learning their cycles so they abstain during their fertile times (adults who want to use the rhythm method), and they note it does NOT protect against STDs and they don't recommend teens use it. "Continuous abstinence" is no sex play at all, which they proceed to list the benefits of. In neither case do they say oral/anal "doesn't count"

Your last quote doesn't have anything to do with abstinence, it just defines intercourse and outercourse. Kissing, touching, etc is NOT intercourse, so it's NOT "doing it" but it's also NOT being abstinent. No where does the article say you can do these things and call yourself abstinent.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I add it all up and yes, they believe abortions help save the environment, even if they don't explicitly say so.

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So it's your opinion that that's what they mean. That's fine. We are all entitled to an opinion.

Did you lose your dog recently? It's makes me feel sad for you every time I see that line about missing your dog at the end of your posts.
Asking

I say good for the vegans. I didn't want their dumb kids on my planet anyway. :)

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Originally Posted by michealb

I say good for the vegans. I didn't want their dumb kids on my planet anyway. :)

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I feel uncomfortable with the amount of hostility in this thread. It's not typical of other threads I've seen at AMHD. I assume you don't literally hate the children of people who don't happen to eat hamburgers... I mean why would anyone even care what someone doesn't eat? (I don't eat avocados; am I in trouble? :) ) Do you assume that all vegans have beliefs you strongly disagree with?
Asking

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Originally Posted by asking

I feel uncomfortable with the amount of hostility in this thread. It's not typical of other threads I've seen at AMHD. I assume you don't literally hate the children of people who don't happen to eat hamburgers... I mean why would anyone even care what someone doesn't eat?? (I don't eat avocados; am I in trouble?? :) ) Do you assume that all vegans have beliefs you strongly disagree with?
Asking

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I could be wrong, but I think he meant the kids of the vegans in the OP. :)

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Originally Posted by asking

I feel uncomfortable with the amount of hostility in this thread. It's not typical of other threads I've seen at AMHD. I assume you don't literally hate the children of people who don't happen to eat hamburgers... I mean why would anyone even care what someone doesn't eat?? (I don't eat avocados; am I in trouble?? :) ) Do you assume that all vegans have beliefs you strongly disagree with?
Asking

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I meant specifically the vegans in the OP. I meant it as a joke though hence the :). It's more of a reference to past posts I've made about wanting an ethical way to get dumb people not to breed and I thought the vegans in the OP kind of fit the dumb part so I said good for them.

And as far as the my planet part well... thats just a matter of time. I want to make sure when I'm in charge it's still worth something. It's like washing the bird poop off a car that your about to buy it's not your car right now but you plan for it to be your car so you don't want the poop stain.:)

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Originally Posted by michealb

And as far as the my planet part well....thats just a matter of time. I want to make sure when I'm in charge it's still worth something. It's like washing the bird poop off a car that your about to buy it's not your car right now but you plan for it to be your car so you don't want the poop stain.:)

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I'll take this as a statement of your plans for world domination then. :)
Or do we all get a chance to be in charge of the planet at some point? Did I miss my turn?? Hey, wait!

Anyway, thanks for explaining. :)
Asking

Total world domination, I mean if I'm going to set goals I figured I'd start with a low one and go from there.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

I tried to find info on PP's kindergarten program, but all I saw was reference to "age appropriate information" and I think that's the key. I'll admit if I'm wrong, but my GUESS is sex ed for kids that young consists of body parts and names, which I have to objection to (if a parent does, they should be able to opt their kid out, however). The only thing I saw was this article

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That's just it Jillean, who knows what PP's sex education programs are because in public they are extremely vague about what that is and they are purposely very cautious in their choice of words when discussing it. However, this is their belief:

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Ideally, sexuality education is taught in ways that are age- and experience-appropriate in kindergarten through 12th grade (.pdf).

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What exactly is "age appropriate" and what exactly is "experience appropriate" in kindergarten? And absolutely if they do provide sex ed in school parents should be able to opt out, but PP doesn't seem to believe parents should have any say so.

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So again, it's about education and involved families.

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The last part is the key.

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As far as teens and the PP website goes, I don't object to it. Kids are curious about their bodies, and I'd rather my teen (if I had one) find information from a reliable source than from some pedo on the web.

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Of course that's your prerogative, but knowing what I do about PP, I believe they are one of the most destructive, subversive organizations in the world and I would never, under any circumstance knowingly allow a child of mine to get ANYTHING from them. I care more about people than to trust anything of any of any importance to that group. Besides my other objections, here's my number one reason why - had it not been for PP my daughter might be healthy and we might have a grandchild. I can only imagine how many others have been through as much thanks in part to their attitude and their ineptitude.

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Originally Posted by asking

I feel uncomfortable with the amount of hostility in this thread. It's not typical of other threads I've seen at AMHD. I assume you don't literally hate the children of people who don't happen to eat hamburgers... I mean why would anyone even care what someone doesn't eat?? (I don't eat avocados; am I in trouble?? :) ) Do you assume that all vegans have beliefs you strongly disagree with?
Asking

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Sorry asking, I don't feel I've been hostile though I can see what you might consider hostile, but then part of this was meant to make someone uncomfortable. :)

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

Sorry, speech, but some of your quotes are pulled out of context to make it look like PP says oral and anal can be done while still being abstinent or that they are inconsistent with their definition.

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As I said Jillean, I can't find the particular quote I recalled but it was there. You missed the key to the last quote, the title of the article is "Foreplay 411: Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Not Doing It."

I thought that was self explanatory, isn't "abstinence" the same as "not doing it?"

Speechlesstx,

I know you personally dislike PP and I understand why you do but I have to say I just don't see the evil in it that you do.

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Originally Posted by asking

So it's your opinion that that's what they mean. That's fine. We are all entitled to an opinion.

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This would be an interesting exercise, ask both groups to work out their goal of population control and a sustainable environment without abortion and see what happens. :D

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Did you lose your dog recently? It's makes me feel sad for you every time I see that line about missing your dog at the end of your posts.
Asking

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Awww, don't feel sad, but after 5 months I do still miss my dog very much. It's a small tribute to a great dog... but I won't keep it up there forever. :)

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Originally Posted by michealb

Speechlesstx,

I know you personally dislike PP and I understand why you do but I have to say I just don't see the evil in it that you do.

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And nobody says you have to either :) Still, if I can convince one person not to go to PP and have an abortion, if just one child gets a chance at life that wouldn't have otherwise, if one teen's life is not wrecked because of PP's influence...

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Speech,
I agree, parts of that site make me uncomfortable if I knew my 12 year old were browsing it. But then again, as Jillean mentions better there then hearing misinformation to promote abstinence.

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Lo and behold NK, we have finally found at least a little common ground :)