Ima have to say I don't agree on what your saying about tax breaks, I know a guy who's dad is illegal and he pays taxes every time knowing he won't be getting anything back at all, has a house he's paying on including property taxes. And I'm sure the government doesn't mind all those illegals being here when they get to keep all that uncollected tax money at the end of the year and you see everyone else going shopping like if they just won the lottery. Id have to say that's maybe millions if not billions of unclaimed tax money the government keeps.

Gs, I never once said the government was fair, believe me. I am one of the most anti- government people in America. They lie through their teeth and us Americans pay for it. Point lately, this whole bailing out banks and companies.

Here are a few questions that need to be answered.

1) Does the USA have a right to determine who enters its borders? Does it have the right to prevent criminals from entering in order to protect its citizens? Or are the needs/desires of foreign nationals of greater importance than the security of the USA?

2) Does the USA have the right to limit the number of people entering the USA to work or for any other purpose to prevent jobs currently held by Americans from being lost to foreign workers?

3) Does the USA have to have an open border policy to allow anyone and everyone who wishes to enter to do so without answering to any oversight?

4) What means has the government allowed for LEGAL immigration into the USA? Are these means sufficient? Why or why not? Are they insufficient? Whay are why not?

5) Which is paramount: The needs of foreign nationals to come to the USA to find work, or the need for the USA to protect itself from criminals, terrorists and other dangerous persons who are a potential danger to the USA and its citizens?

Until we answer these questions, we cannot address the issue of a fence. Until we are clear what our national goals are, we cannot determine the best way to achieve those goals.

I already have my answers to these questions. I already know what my goals are. Build the fence. It has been working well in Israel to limit terrorist incursions into Israel proper. We can do it just as well here.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

I already have my answers to these questions. I already know what my goals are. Build the fence. It has been working well in Israel to limit terrorist incursions into Israel proper. We can do it just as well here.

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Hello Elliot:

Couple things. The Mexicans want to wash your dishes, not blow you up. Plus, I for one, am not interested in paying lots more for my lettuce, grapes, clean sheets, and clean plates in my local restaurant. You are! How perfectly UN right wing of you.

excon

And here I thought you would be opposed to near slave like working conditions and well below standard wage.

The only way you get that cheap produce you desire is by maintaining that system here ;or by importing the product of low wage labor from elsewhere .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

and here I thought you would be opposed to near slave like working conditions and well below standard wage.

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Hello again, tom:

Only people with full belly's sit around and discuss working conditions.

And, I'da thought that you would be opposed to an illegal immigrant union, but it looks like you'd support one.

excon

How could I be in support of an illegal immigrant union when I oppose illegal immigration ?

Your earlier response about reforming immigration rules made plenty of sense . However ,we the people have a right to decide who gets to live here. A nation that can't control it's borders has no claim to territorial control at all.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

How could I be in support of an illegal immigrant union when I oppose illegal immigration ?

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Hello again, tom:

I don't know. It looked, for a minute, like you were worried about their employment conditions.

I don't disagree about our right to control who comes in... But, when you make a law that virtually PREVENTS people from coming in through the front door, as our immigration law with Mexico does, you encourage them to come in through the back door.

It would seem to me, that the way to fix it, is to change the law - not to try to throw out the million's of people, and destroy their families, simply because they wanted to mow your lawn.

But, that's just me.

excon

Nowhere did I say that anyone should be thrown out ,although the people who are here illegally need to be properly vetted and recorded . Some may need to be thrown out .

What we have shown in this country is a willingness to reform ;to give amnesty on condition that we would properly control the borders at some later date. The second part of the bargain has consistently been ignored once the first part is enacted.

I am all in favor of reform ;but this time lets take the steps to control the flow into the country 1st .Then WE DECIDE WHO COMES IN .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

nowhere did I say that anyone should be thrown out ,although the people who are here illegally need to be properly vetted and recorded . Some may need to be thrown out .

What we have shown in this country is a willingness to reform ;to give amnesty

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Hello again, tom:

I was referring to your party. But, I'm glad to see that you disavow that particular plank. I think we agree here.

excon

I have tried to tell you before that I am not Republican . They are closer to me philosphically than the Dems but there is a significant part of the party that is not and never was conservative.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I have tried to tell you before that I am not Republican

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Hello again, tom:

Wow! So, you and Steve are coming over?? Cool. I know, I know. You won't be bringing Elliot along.

excon

I never was Republican .I quit the Democrat party some time ago and remain a registered independent. I may have to register at some point if the Republicans get their heads out of their butts in NY... but I don't see that happening soon . Even when the Republican party was legit in NY it was of the country-club Republican wing .

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello Elliot:

Couple things. The Mexicans want to wash your dishes, not blow you up.

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First of all, how do you know that?

Second of all, are ALL of the people coming over the Mexican border Mexicans?

Third, crime and terrorism are not the only sources of danger to the American people from beyond the border. There's a swine flu pandemic spreading throughout the world, and it originated in Mexico. Do we have a right to know that those coming over our borders aren't bringing swine flu with them? Or TB? Or avian flu? Or any of the thousands of other contagious bugs that exist outside the USA, but have been virtually wiped out inside the USA. (TB WAS one such case... we had it licked here in the USA until Mexicans with TB came here illegally and started spreading it around. Now TB cases in the USA are on the rise again.)

Fourth, whether they are Mexican or not, don't we have the right to determine who is coming over the border into our country before they come in?

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Plus, I for one, am not interested in paying lots more for my lettuce, grapes, clean sheets, and clean plates in my local restaurant. You are! How perfectly UN right wing of you.

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Are you really bringing financial arguments into this again, excon? Haven't I kicked your butt enough times on economic issues?

Labor is roughly 3%-6% of the cost of fresh produce at the store*. Even if we DOUBLED the cost of labor by only using Americans for our labor force, the cost would only increase by 12 cents on the dollar. So your $5 head of lettuce will end up costing about 60 cents more, not $20 dollars.

The REAL costs associated with fresh produce are in the transportation costs and the costs of storage. Scarcity als plays a role in the price of the produce. But labor is just about the smallest variable involved in establishing the price of produce.

But you miss my point again, excon. I'm not talking about keeping Mexicans away from doing these jobs. I'm not even talking about keeping them out of the country. I'm talking about making sure they aren't here ILLEGALLY. Let them come here if they want to. But let them do so in a legal manner, with proper oversight and proper checking of a) their intentions, and b) their health.

What part of that are you against?

Elliot

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello Elliot:

Couple things. The Mexicans wanna wash your dishes, not blow you up. Plus, I for one, am not interested in paying lots more for my lettuce, grapes, clean sheets, and clean plates in my local restaurant. You are! How perfectly UN right wing of you.

excon

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One more thing:

Why is it that when I ask an inconvenient question (or in this case a bunch of them) you ignore them completely and make a comletely different point. Please answer the questions that I posted above. Because it is by answering those questions honestly that you will have your answer to the question of whether we should build a fence on the border with Mexico.

Excon, I find it interesting that you, who are so worried about the cost of healthcare in the USA, are willing to risk importing disease to this country from Mexico, AND are willing to import uninsured illegal aliens to drive up the cost of healthcare in the USA.

Can you explain how or why a person who is so worried about the cost of healthcare in the USA is so willing to take actions that drive up the cost of healthcare in the USA?

On the other hand, if they are here LEGALLY, which is what I advocate, they will be sponsored by an employer or supported by family that is already here, who will help pay for his medical costs. And if he is here legally, we will know about his health status, and know that he's not bringing disease here, which will also keep costs of healthcare under control.

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

excon, I find it interesting that you, who are so worried about the cost of healthcare in the USA, are willing to risk importing disease to this country from Mexico,...

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Aren't there many visitors to your country from all over the world? Do you view them as disease carriers as well? When you build the wall, will you also ban the tourists because they may carry diseases?

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

I find it interesting that you, who are so worried about the cost of healthcare in the USA, are willing to risk importing disease to this country from Mexico,

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Hello again, El:

It IS interesting that you bring this up... Tis true, the first white men who didn't respect OUR borders brought along disease and pestilence. What people it didn't kill, they did.

So, given our own history, I'd worry too. But, you got to consider that not all peoples are as barbaric as we were.

excon

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Aren't there many visitors to your country from all over the world? Do you view them as disease carriers as well? When you build the wall, will you also ban the tourists because they may carry diseases?

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They all come here LEGALLY, with passports, visas, etc. They can be, and based on where they are from they often are, checked before entering. If they are from a high-risk country, you can be sure that they are either coming with medical documentation verifying that they are safe, or they are submitting to quarantine until they are cleared by a physician for entry. And YES it does happen regularly. Additionally, agro items, especially foods, are restricted as well, because of plant-borne disease risks. That is the job of the Department of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). Or at least it is supposed to be.

I never get "checked" before I cross the border, nor has anyone I know been checked, in fact that simply doesn't happen. Is Mexico and all its citizens always been considered a high-risk country for diseases?