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  • Jan 23, 2019, 10:22 AM
    talaniman
    [QUOTE=jlisenbe;3828675]You're dithering.[/QOUTE]

    The dufus dithers helped along by Slick Mitch who instead of doing his job, defers to the dufus. That's how and why the government workers are in soup lines and can't pay their bills and must work nonetheless. Abject slavery. That's IMMORAL and illegal according to the 13th amendment which forbids involuntary servitude.

    Quote:

    Illegals consume billions upon billions of dollars in tax money every year. That's how it should concern you.
    Site your source and I will site mine as to the billions they contribute to the US treasury. Of course we can ignore that fact as the right ignores any fact that shows they are wrong,

    Quote:

    Funny how liberals can never stray far away from race.
    How can we since repubs use race in institutional ways to target oppressive, suppressive, policy at minorities women and children. Just look at the make up of the conservative repub base, and look at the liberal dem base and you might see what I am talking about. You already know but are in deep denial that we hate racist policies, and conservatives NEED racists.
  • Jan 23, 2019, 10:30 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You're dithering.

    Has tRump stated his compromise position? (Psssst, he doesn't have one.)

    Quote:

    Illegals consume billions upon billions of dollars in tax money every year. That's how it should concern you.
    No, they don't. Do some research. They do all those dirty jobs whites refuse to do. Visit nursing homes and see who's washing the floors and residents' butts and befouled bedding. Talk with roofing and construction contractors who hire illegals on the cheap to do the scut (meaning menial) labor. Ask tRump whom he hired to do the crappy jobs when he built his towers and also ask him how many illegals work at Mar-a-Lago. And those illegals who don't have SS#s do pay taxes on goods and services.

    Quote:

    Funny how liberals can never stray far away from race.
    The r in Republican is for "racist."

    What was very upsetting was that, because of the dictated federal "furlough," tRump had no kitchen staff to prepare dinner for the Clemson Tigers, but was reduced to feeding them stone-cold burgers and fries. *shudder*
  • Jan 23, 2019, 10:37 AM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    Has tRump stated his compromise position? (Psssst, he doesn't have one.)
    Psssst. Yes, he does have one and he has stated it. He was on television just last Saturday doing so. Gosh you dems must sleep a lot. Now you might not like his proposal, but neither you nor the dems have the gumption to come up with an alternative.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tnCWsuR6u0

    Quote:

    The r in Republican is for "racist."
    Just another example of the unthinking, careless, and vindictive use of the term "racist" which is why it is rapidly becoming a word with no real meaning. It is about on the level of me trying to say the d in democrat stands for "dumb". Of course considering Warren, Ocasio-Cortez, and Sanders, there might at least be a little validity in the statement, but it would still end up being as outrageous as yours.

    Quote:

    They do all those dirty jobs whites refuse to do.
    Why is it that you don't have the courage to add, "or that blacks refuse to do". Is that some self loathing at work, or some subtle racism? Why do you only zero in on whites? BTW, I know MANY white, black, and otherwise who do janitorial work, yard care, construction work, painting, and any number of low paying jobs. Having to compete with illegals drives down wages in those jobs. Where do you get your data?

    The truth about illegals and taxes. https://www.justfactsdaily.com/illeg...-income-taxes/
  • Jan 23, 2019, 10:50 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Psssst. Yes, he does have one and he has stated it. He was on television just last Saturday doing so. Gosh you dems must sleep a lot. Now you might not like his proposal, but neither you nor the dems have the gumption to come up with an alternative.

    Offering to give back a crumb of what he took away is compromise????

    Quote:

    Just another example of the unthinking, careless, and vindictive use of the term "racist" which is why it is rapidly becoming a word with no real meaning. It is about on the level of me trying to say the d in democrat stands for "dumb". Of course considering Warren, Ocasio-Cortez, and Sanders, there might at least be a little validity in the statement.
    I'm a Republican and have been listening to fellow Republicans for over 50 years. I LIVE with one, am related to Republicans biologically and thru marriage. I know what I'm talking about when I say they are suspicious of and don't like anyone who isn't white.
  • Jan 23, 2019, 10:54 AM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    Offering to give back a crumb of what he took away is compromise????
    Far ahead of any proposal I have heard from you or the dems, which is nothing. That's why I asked you earlier what you would accept. You dithered. (Yes, I like that word.)

    If you are a repub, then by your own statement you are a racist. Don't you find that strange?

    As to the people you know, I live in Mississippi, and I don't know those people. I do know some black individuals who don't like whites, but not so much the other way around, and it is not epidemic in either group.
  • Jan 23, 2019, 10:59 AM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Psssst. Yes, he does have one and he has stated it. He was on television just last Saturday doing so. Gosh you dems must sleep a lot. Now you might not like his proposal, but neither you nor the dems have the gumption to come up with an alternative.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tnCWsuR6u0

    Pelosi and the dems have already hit the ground running sine January 3rd to open up the government, and relieve the suffering of works that the feckless repubs have allowed the dufus to do. Slick Mitch McConnel is the one who needs to show gumption and do his job.

    Quote:

    Just another example of the unthinking, careless, and vindictive use of the term "racist" which is why it is rapidly becoming a word with no real meaning. It is about on the level of me trying to say the d in democrat stands for "dumb". Of course considering Warren, Ocasio-Cortez, and Sanders, there might at least be a little validity in the statement.
    See my posts above.

    Quote:

    Why is it that you don't have the courage to add, "or that blacks refuse to do". Is that some self loathing at work, or some subtle racism? Why do you only zero in on whites? BTW, I know MANY white, black, and otherwise who do janitorial work, yard care, construction work, painting, and any number of low paying jobs. Where do you get your data?

    The truth about illegals and taxes. https://www.justfactsdaily.com/illeg...-income-taxes/
    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...llion-annuall/
  • Jan 23, 2019, 11:11 AM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    Pelosi and the dems have already hit the ground running sine January 3rd to open up the government, and relieve the suffering of works that the feckless repubs have allowed the dufus to do. Slick Mitch McConnel is the one who needs to show gumption and do his job.
    OK. What compromise have they proposed? What are the specifics?

    Quote:

    How can we since repubs use race in institutional ways to target oppressive, suppressive, policy at minorities women and children. Just look at the make up of the conservative repub base, and look at the liberal dem base and you might see what I am talking about. You already know but are in deep denial that we hate racist policies, and conservatives NEED racists.
    1. Be specific. What institutional ways are used to target minorities, women, and children? Are you referring to affirmative action, or AFDC, or the many welfare programs that positively target children, or free public education? Be specific.
    2. What do you mean when you say, "Look at the makeup of the conservative repub base"? Are you suggesting that white people are inherently racist? And if you are, then please explain how you are not engaging in the racism you say you detest. If that is not what you meant, then what did you mean?
  • Jan 23, 2019, 02:01 PM
    talaniman
    Pelosi and the dems have already hit the ground running sine January 3rd to open up the government, and relieve the suffering of works that the feckless repubs have allowed the dufus to do. Slick Mitch McConnel is the one who needs to show gumption and do his job.

    OK. What compromise have they proposed? What are the specifics?

    The bills the repubs passed in DEC by voice vote. Bipartisan supported I might add.
    How can we since repubs use race in institutional ways to target oppressive, suppressive, policy at minorities women and children. Just look at the make up of the conservative repub base, and look at the liberal dem base and you might see what I am talking about. You already know but are in deep denial that we hate racist policies, and conservatives NEED racists.

    1. Be specific. What institutional ways are used to target minorities, women, and children? Are you referring to affirmative action, or AFDC, or the many welfare programs that positively target children, or free public education? Be specific.

    Voter suppression laws that require ID' and then close or drastically reduce DMV hours of operations in minority communities, often a lot bigger in population than surronding, white communities. An old tactic. Anothe example is the dakota law that requires and address with a street ID that reservation Indians NEVER had since their village had no "streets" with official names any way but effectively CANCELED their democratic votes. Repub party leaders have long admitted publically there tactics were meant to shave democratic votes, predominately minorities that are targeted.

    2. What do you mean when you say, "Look at the makeup of the conservative repub base"? Are you suggesting that white people are inherently racist? And if you are, then please explain how you are not engaging in the racism you say you detest. If that is not what you meant, then what did you mean?

    No not at all just, predominately WHITE. and MEN. That does include some publically avowed racists, but I would not broadbrush the entire party as racists. You need those numbers to get a vote total to keep repubs relevant as a national political party, Let's face it the dufus is the leader of your party now and he is a racist in words, actions, behavior, and HISTORY.

    I would imagine that you feel as strongly disgusted about Hillary, and that's fair enough I suppose, but the difference is Hillary is history, and the dufus is the current racist in power NOW, so he is the target of the liberals, and even some of his own repubs, and conservatives as well.

    That's because he is disgusting and may well prove to be a criminal, in which case his presidency will be illegitimate.




  • Jan 23, 2019, 02:10 PM
    jlisenbe
    1. That's it?? Some states have voter ID. You have to have ID to do a lot of things. In Mississippi, there are a number of sources of voter ID cards, not just the DMV. That just won't fly. And the one example in the Dakotas. That's it? That's your proof of systematic racism? That's about the same as saying it does not exist at all.

    2. Then why did you feel compelled to use "the makeup of the conservative repub base" as proof of racism in the republican party?
  • Jan 23, 2019, 02:42 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Far ahead of any proposal I have heard from you or the dems, which is nothing. That's why I asked you earlier what you would accept. You dithered. (Yes, I like that word.)

    I've posted it here more than once: use the money to assign more well-trained immigration agents and, of course, use technology to keep the border secure.

    Quote:

    If you are a repub, then by your own statement you are a racist. Don't you find that strange?
    I've never bothered to change my party registration. This way I can vote on a Republican primary ballot and choose candidates who are worthy (not racist), then vote for candidates of either party during the general election.

    Quote:

    As to the people you know, I live in Mississippi, and I don't know those people. I do know some black individuals who don't like whites, but not so much the other way around, and it is not epidemic in either group.
    I was born in NC in the mid '40s and lived there for my first ten years. Thankfully, my minister father (from the Chicago suburbs) and mother (from south-central Idaho) had never learned to be racists, so I and my siblings were never taught to be racists either.
  • Jan 23, 2019, 02:58 PM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    1. That's it?? Some states have voter ID. You have to have ID to do a lot of things. In Mississippi, there are a number of sources of voter ID cards, not just the DMV. That just won't fly. And the one example in the Dakotas. That's it? That's your proof of systematic racism? That's about the same as saying it does not exist at all.

    No it's not and you know I could have written a lot more but Geez, it's a matter of history. Okay since you asked so NICELY!

    https://www.thoughtco.com/examples-o...he-u-s-2834624

    https://www.bustle.com/p/this-is-pro...-problem-43610

    https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at...ur-way-of-life

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/institu...-says-rep-lee/

    https://diverseeducation.com/article/64583/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Feagin

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Jim_Crow

    Let me know when you get through these as my archives on the subject is quite extensive and I hope informative and enlightening.

    Quote:

    2. Then why did you feel compelled to use "the makeup of the conservative repub base" as proof of racism in the republican party?
    I will let you consider that for yourself. It didn't take a lot of compelling to state the obvious.
  • Jan 23, 2019, 04:00 PM
    jlisenbe
    The first article is a joke including slavery (been gone for 150 years) and problems in World War 2. The second one seems to make sense until you consider how much it might apply to a law-abiding black man and that would be none.

    The problem I have with these discussions of institutional racism is that it deflects the conversation away from where it needs to be. What is the greatest problem in the black community? Very simple. The out of wedlock birth rate is over 70% which, just by itself, is devastating. A young black man is seven times more likely to commit murder than a young white man, and many times more likely to be the victim of a homicide (almost always at the hands of another young black man). The educational status of black children lags far behind the rest of the population, and that is especially true for males. Many black children are trapped in low-performing schools. The incarceration rate for black men is abysmally high because the crime rates are abysmally high. There is no law to fix these things. They are many times more the enemy of the black population than is institutional racism, yet they do not get talked about. Why? Because it would require major changes in the behavior of black people, and it is always much easier to talk about someone else changing than to talk about me (for instance) changing. Who is leading the charge against out of wedlock births and in favor of stable families? Who is? On the national stage, the answer is no one. What a tragedy.

    Is there institutional racism? No doubt there is still some, but compared to the problems listed above they are not worth talking about. You want to see any population group make progress? Honor the family, honor education, and commit to working hard. It is practically a miracle to see the results that can bring.
  • Jan 23, 2019, 04:11 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    I've posted it here more than once: use the money to assign more well-trained immigration agents and, of course, use technology to keep the border secure.
    And as I replied then, that is not a compromise, it is simply a position. "Take it or leave it," is not a compromise. What Trump proposed is at least the beginning of a compromise.

    Quote:

    I've never bothered to change my party registration. This way I can vote on a Republican primary ballot and choose candidates who are worthy (not racist), then vote for candidates of either party during the general election.
    You are a repub. You said repubs are racists. Again, wouldn't that make you a racist? And if not, then your statement would be invalid. We both know it is anyway. It is just another inaccurate use of the term that is rendering it nearly meaningless.
  • Jan 23, 2019, 04:13 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    The first article is a joke including slavery (been gone for 150 years) and problems in World War 2. The second one seems to make sense until you consider how much it might apply to a law-abiding black man and that would be none.

    The problem I have with these discussions of institutional racism is that it deflects the conversation away from where it needs to be. What is the greatest problem in the black community? Very simple. The out of wedlock birth rate is over 70% which, just by itself, is devastating. A young black man is seven times more likely to commit murder than a young white man, and many times more likely to be the victim of a homicide (almost always at the hands of another young black man). The educational status of black children lags far behind the rest of the population, and that is especially true for males. Many black children are trapped in low-performing schools. The incarceration rate for black men is abysmally high because the crime rates are abysmally high. There is no law to fix these things. They are many times more the enemy of the black population than is institutional racism, yet they do not get talked about. Why? Because it would require major changes in the behavior of black people, and it is always much easier to talk about someone else changing than to talk about me (for instance) changing. Who is leading the charge against out of wedlock births and in favor of stable families? Who is? On the national stage, the answer is no one. What a tragedy.

    So what are we (white people) doing to help improve the situation?
  • Jan 23, 2019, 04:18 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    So what are we (white people) doing to help improve the situation?
    I guess that's how we are different. I don't see the world by color. I don't get up in the morning and think, "What should I do to help xxxx class of people?" I try to be fair to people and generous when it is needed. What color they are doesn't matter. What color I am doesn't matter. I certainly don't always get it right, but I try not to pay attention to color. Pretty much have to in this thread since it is, for now, about institutional racism, but generally I just don't concern myself with it.
  • Jan 23, 2019, 04:24 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I guess that's how we are different. I don't see the world by color. I don't get up in the morning and think, "What should I do to help xxxx class of people?" I try to be fair to people and generous when it is needed. What color they are doesn't matter. What color I am doesn't matter. I certainly don't always get it right, but I try not to pay attention to color. Pretty much have to in this thread since it is, for now, about institutional racism, but generally I just don't concern myself with it.

    Your entire screed was on what's wrong with the black community. I just jumped off that.

    I agree, we're all in this together. How can I help my neighbor? (Hmmmm, I think I read that question in some book....)
  • Jan 23, 2019, 04:26 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    Your entire screed was on what's wrong with the black community. I just jumped off that.
    Fair point. As I said, I was responding to institutional racism. Of course many of the problems I cited afflict the country as a whole and not just the black community, but that is where the conversation was.
  • Jan 23, 2019, 05:58 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    The first article is a joke including slavery (been gone for 150 years) and problems in World War 2. The second one seems to make sense until you consider how much it might apply to a law-abiding black man and that would be none.

    The problem I have with these discussions of institutional racism is that it deflects the conversation away from where it needs to be. What is the greatest problem in the black community? Very simple. The out of wedlock birth rate is over 70% which, just by itself, is devastating. A young black man is seven times more likely to commit murder than a young white man, and many times more likely to be the victim of a homicide (almost always at the hands of another young black man). The educational status of black children lags far behind the rest of the population, and that is especially true for males. Many black children are trapped in low-performing schools. The incarceration rate for black men is abysmally high because the crime rates are abysmally high. There is no law to fix these things. They are many times more the enemy of the black population than is institutional racism, yet they do not get talked about. Why? Because it would require major changes in the behavior of black people, and it is always much easier to talk about someone else changing than to talk about me (for instance) changing. Who is leading the charge against out of wedlock births and in favor of stable families? Who is? On the national stage, the answer is no one. What a tragedy.

    Is there institutional racism? No doubt there is still some, but compared to the problems listed above they are not worth talking about. You want to see any population group make progress? Honor the family, honor education, and commit to working hard. It is practically a miracle to see the results that can bring.

    At the risk of being called racist, you have noted the high crime rate, etc, among the black population, but such statistics are not confined to the american black population, they are observed among black populations of various ethnicity in various places where they are a minority population. So, two observations; perhaps the eminent researcher who concluded that black persons are not as smart might be right, it might be genetic. Two; the victim mentality and the poverty trap. These people see themselves as victims and dispossessed, therefore their problems are always the fault of someoneelse not themselves, not their lifestyle, and not their responses
  • Jan 23, 2019, 06:35 PM
    talaniman
    https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?ur...oBqs.hAoPQ--~C

    https://www.arcamax.com/newspics/169/16942/1694213.gif

    Follow your leader!
  • Jan 23, 2019, 06:47 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    These people see themselves as victims and dispossessed, therefore their problems are always the fault of someoneelse not themselves, not their lifestyle, and not their responses.
    I don't see it as racial, but it is likely true that when people are allowed, or even encouraged, to see themselves as victims, then their problems automatically become the fault of others. That's why I hate seeing this emphasis on institutional racism. It makes a big deal out of a small deal.
  • Jan 23, 2019, 07:10 PM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    At the risk of being called racist, you have noted the high crime rate, etc, among the black population, but such statistics are not confined to the american black population, they are observed among black populations of various ethnicity in various places where they are a minority population. So, two observations; perhaps the eminent researcher who concluded that black persons are not as smart might be right, it might be genetic. Two; the victim mentality and the poverty trap. These people see themselves as victims and dispossessed, therefore their problems are always the fault of someoneelse not themselves, not their lifestyle, and not their responses

    Your no racist, just a bit prejudiced and misinformed but I would like to know more about these black populations of various ethnicity in greater detail. Also I am curious about your observation #2. Who sets the poverty trap?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I don't see it as racial, but it is likely true that when people are allowed, or even encouraged, to see themselves as victims, then their problems automatically become the fault of others. That's why I hate seeing this emphasis on institutional racism. It makes a big deal out of a small deal.

    I would feel very insulted if I didn't know you are clueless about the black experience in this country, but your solutions are just as old.bible thumper. I say that with affection and without judgement... or malice.
  • Jan 23, 2019, 07:24 PM
    jlisenbe
    My remarks did not mention the black population. You are the one who assumed that. In fact, I said I didn't see it as a racial item.

    As to being a "Bible thumper", I wear that badge with honor.

    If honoring family, honoring education, and honoring hard work are too old for your tastes, then I would suggest you start thumping the Bible a little yourself. It would solve 90% of the problems of those who do not honor those qualities, especially if "honoring God" was put at the head of the line.

    Said with great affection and no malice. Sincerely.
  • Jan 24, 2019, 12:42 AM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    #2. Who sets the poverty trap?

    .

    Socialist society. By insisting upon welfare what we get is a situation where jumping over that divide between a welfare recipient and an income earner is very difficult becauce the difference between welfare and low end wage may be nonexistent. This is why the minimum wage should be a living wage, not a youth wage
  • Jan 24, 2019, 04:22 AM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    This is why the minimum wage should be a living wage, not a youth wage
    That's an interesting proposition. I could be talked into considering it, but I have two, huge hesitations. If we go to let's say fifteen dollars an hour, then we will lose a lot of jobs and we'll accelerate the move towards AI taking the place of humans. That is already being done in a number of places and greatly increasing the cost of labor will not help. So people will end up with zero dollars an hour, not fifteen.

    I'm also concerned with teens who want part time or entry level work. At fifteen bucks an hour, most of them won't get it.

    Perhaps a better approach is to begin to teach people how to make themselves valuable as an employee and therefore worth a higher wage.
  • Jan 24, 2019, 08:20 AM
    talaniman
    Besides brown nosing, back stabbing, and kissing up to the boss, do you have any examples of being more valuable to your boss?
  • Jan 24, 2019, 02:02 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    Besides brown nosing, back stabbing, and kissing up to the boss, do you have any examples of being more valuable to your boss?
    Sometimes you write things that just amaze me and that is one of them. You've never heard of learning more skills, becoming great at what you do, getting to work consistently on time, staying late if needed, not being a whiner, getting along with your fellow employees, working hard without complaining every five seconds, and producing outstanding work results?? What on earth has happened to our country when "becoming a valuable employee" is interpreted as "brown nosing, back stabbing, and kissing up". I never cease to be amazed at how differently we see the world, and how glad I am I don't see it the way you so often seem to do.
  • Jan 24, 2019, 02:11 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    That's an interesting proposition. I could be talked into considering it, but I have two, huge hesitations. If we go to let's say fifteen dollars an hour, then we will lose a lot of jobs and we'll accelerate the move towards AI taking the place of humans. That is already being done in a number of places and greatly increasing the cost of labor will not help. So people will end up with zero dollars an hour, not fifteen.

    I'm also concerned with teens who want part time or entry level work. At fifteen bucks an hour, most of them won't get it.

    Perhaps a better approach is to begin to teach people how to make themselves valuable as an employee and therefore worth a higher wage.

    It is all in the point of view, 15 bucks an hour is a miserly sum if paid to an adult, a slave wage
  • Jan 24, 2019, 03:11 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    It is all in the point of view, 15 bucks an hour is a miserly sum if paid to an adult, a slave wage

    Don't ever work in a public library.
  • Jan 24, 2019, 03:36 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    It is all in the point of view, 15 bucks an hour is a miserly sum if paid to an adult, a slave wage
    Not if you're the one whose job goes away.
  • Jan 24, 2019, 08:23 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Not if you're the one whose job goes away.

    It's a fallacy, jobs abolished by not paying fair wages are literally not worth having. You might think it is better than welfare, but if it is not a living wage forcing someone to work two jobs, if they can get it, all it is doing is making small business owners rich at the employees expense. Better to pay them more and have less inefficient workers. It is called productivity..

    You do know there is a reason unions were formed and it is because employers would not pay fair wages. I do not subscribe to the idea a manager or owner is work hundreds of times the lowest workers wage. What I say is pay the drones at the top less so income is fairly distributed, reward talent and loyalty. Capitalist ideas are what starts revolutions when the people are oppressed rather than fairness enforced
  • Jan 24, 2019, 08:29 PM
    jlisenbe
    I'm going to take a wild guess you don't own your own business. Try opening a fast food outfit and paying 15 dollars an hour. You won't last long. Sad but true. And when you or anyone else gets to decide what management gets paid, then freedom has gone. Better solution is to teach people how to move up the wage scale. Talent gets rewarded already, and loyalty does as well.
  • Jan 25, 2019, 04:43 AM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I'm going to take a wild guess you don't own your own business. Try opening a fast food outfit and paying 15 dollars an hour. You won't last long. Sad but true. And when you or anyone else gets to decide what management gets paid, then freedom has gone. Better solution is to teach people how to move up the wage scale. Talent gets rewarded already, and loyalty does as well.

    I'm going to guess you are a theorist. I have owned my own business and managed staff and businesses having responsibility for large businesses. I know that if we treated our employees as minimum wage slaves we couldn't expect their loyalty. Some people can't "move" up the wage scale, not everyone has equal ability. Your capitalist utopia doesn't work for anyone but the elite
  • Jan 25, 2019, 05:50 AM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    I'm going to guess you are a theorist. I have owned my own business and managed staff and businesses having responsibility for large businesses. I know that if we treated our employees as minimum wage slaves we couldn't expect their loyalty. Some people can't "move" up the wage scale, not everyone has equal ability. Your capitalist utopia doesn't work for anyone but the elite.
    And you did all of this because of government mandates, or because it was a sound business decision? No, I am not a theorist. I was a school principal for more than twenty years, so I have experience in managing personnel. Even more so, I had a lot of contact with people who worked minimum wage jobs. You might think it would have been better if they had no job at all, but I don't agree with you. The vast majority of people who start at minimum wage move past that within a couple of years. For that matter, I worked at minimum wage in my younger years on several occasions and at sub-minimum wage once in my teens. There was no oppression involved, and I got past that. It worries me when the wage theorists like you want to start telling everyone else what to do. Leave the system alone. It works.
  • Jan 25, 2019, 01:54 PM
    talaniman
    When you speak of a minimum wage in the face of decades long prices going up, you cannot ignore the fact that the minimum wage has not kept pace with those rises, nor account for the difference between a minimum wage, and entry level wages. Let's face it, times have changed and every job should pay a living wage, and it should be against the law for any business to not do otherwise. I always use the Walmart example of paying low wages (And getting tremendous tax breaks from local governments) and workers on some kind of welfare, and we aren't talking teens we are talking adults with families, and must note they have since raised the wages of their workers, and show no signs of going out of business.

    They got their tax break and in fact LOCAL, and state minimum wages have CHANGED.
  • Jan 25, 2019, 02:54 PM
    tomder55
    minimum wage is an artificial construct .
  • Jan 25, 2019, 03:16 PM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    minimum wage is an artificial construct .

    So is capitalism.
  • Jan 25, 2019, 03:26 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    minimum wage is an artificial construct .

    Your constitution is an artificial construct, which makes your country and in fact every country an artificial construct
  • Jan 25, 2019, 03:29 PM
    tomder55
    so when did you become an open border globalist ?
  • Jan 25, 2019, 04:21 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    Let's face it, times have changed and every job should pay a living wage, and it should be against the law for any business to not do otherwise.
    1. How have times changed such that every job must pay a "living wage"? Did people not need a "living wage" 40 years ago?

    2. How many jobs are you prepared to see go up in smoke in order to make you and others feel better about people doing well? What do you tell to those people who no longer can get a job, or lose their job, in order that the minimum wage might be doubled?

    3. What's wrong with someone working 65 hours a week in order to make ends meet? Whoever said life was going to be easy?
  • Jan 25, 2019, 05:16 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    1. How have times changed such that every job must pay a "living wage"? Did people not need a "living wage" 40 years ago?

    2. How many jobs are you prepared to see go up in smoke in order to make you and others feel better about people doing well? What do you tell to those people who no longer can get a job, or lose their job, in order that the minimum wage might be doubled?

    3. What's wrong with someone working 65 hours a week in order to make ends meet? Whoever said life was going to be easy?

    I seem to remember what happen to the last man I know who espoused that credo.

    Industries fail, they can be helped to restructure or the people can be helped to retrain. If they are so inefficient that they can only survive with minimum wage then they deserve to fail, this is the capitalism you love, enslave the population under the guise of doing something for them. I thank God I don't live in such a society

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