Ask Me Help Desk - Transgender Women

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Sex organs don't make the gender, the male or the female.

I was responding to YOUR comment on sex organs!

Quote:

t's the HORMONES that do that. She's been doing hormone therapy -- progesterone and estrogen, probably for years. Her testosterone has been greatly reduced. She still needs time taking female hormones, and also maybe for voice coaching, possibly face sculpting, if desired, allowing hair to grow out, and, near the end of probably six years, Genital Reassignment Surgery (GRS).

The issue is transgenders competing in women's sports. Not transgendering.

Quote:

"Under the standards of care adopted by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), the first step usually is meeting with a mental health professional for a diagnosis and psychotherapy. A diagnosis of gender identity disorder or gender dysphoria and a letter of recommendation from the therapist allows a person to begin hormone therapy with a doctor. That is usually followed by a period of living publicly as a member of the opposite sex and, finally, surgery to alter the genitalia and other body parts."

PLEASE stay on track. Your lengthy links/quotes do not apply to male-to-female transgenders competing with women in sports.

Quote:

Ha, ha, a "typical woman" on any sports teams. Apparently, you don't understand what coaches want on their teams. A typical woman (whatever that is -- weak as a kitten?) isn't it. And she must have passed the gender test to be on that team.

Untrue.

I'm trying to keep this a serious discussion, but you are making it difficult. The nastiness is unnecessary. The topic is male-to-female transgenders competing with women in sports. It's a simple enough topic. I'm not asking about the processes or self-identities of transgenders - I've said that repeatedly now trying to keep you on track, but I seem to be failing.

Quote:

Nope. Please consult your favorite librarian for more information.

It gives me great sadness to say I no longer have a favorite librarian. The one I did have is gone. If there's a chance she should return, I would welcome her back.

I have no clue what you're complaining about, Athos.

She is well on her way to being female, thanks to hormone therapy.

Nastiness? That wasn't my intent. Read it over. I don't see nastiness in that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I have no clue what you're complaining about, Athos.

Avoiding the direct answer re women's sports.

Quote:

Nastiness? That wasn't my intent. Read it over. I don't see nastiness in that.

Quote:

Ha, ha, a "typical woman" on any sports teams.

Laughing at me is nasty.

Quote:

Apparently, you don't understand what coaches want on their teams.

A gratuitous comment criticizing my lack of understanding. To be accurate, I've played on enough teams to know very well what coaches want.

Quote:

A typical woman - (whatever that is -- weak as a kitten?) isn't it.

Not nice - nasty - implying what I never said or even hinted at.

Quote:

And she must have passed the gender test to be on that team.

I don't know what a gender test is. Don't explain - I'll take your word for it. But, again, that is not the issue.

I was not being mean. I even said I'm a typical woman who has been turned down by coaches because I wasn't "right" for some reason. Typical women are too often dissed as wusses -- "She's such a typical woman!"

Do you know what coaches of women's teams want? I had forgotten to add that adjective, women's. I did not intend to criticize you. I thought that adjective would be understood because we're talking about women and sports.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Do you know what coaches of women's teams want?

I assume they want what any coach wants regardless of team.

Quote:

.......... because we're talking about women and sports.

No, not exactly. The topic is male-to-female transgenders competing unfairly on women's sports teams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athos

No, not exactly. The topic is male-to-female transgenders competing unfairly on women's sports teams.

If the preliminary hormone testing and other exams are done correctly, fairly, and accurately, a MtF transgender can be eligible for a women's sports team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

If the preliminary hormone testing and other exams are done correctly, fairly, and accurately, a MtF transgender can be eligible for a women's sports team.

That's not the issue.

Can a MtF trans compete fairly with women?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athos

That's not the issue.

Can a MtF trans compete fairly with women?

Yes!!!! And I have given you the reasons why she can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Yes!!!! And I have given you the reasons why she can.

No, you gave me no reasons. You gave me a lot of info re transgendering, but no reasons a MtF trans can compete fairly in women's sports.

OTOH, I gave you many reasons why they can't. I will restate some of them here:
1. Skeletal structure is denser and stronger than women.
2. Musculature is denser and larger than women.
3. Stamina is greater based on larger lung capacity than women.
4. Males are larger than women in height and weight.

Some less than obvious ones:
1. Men have a higher metabolism which lets them burn more calories gaining more strength. Women have slower metabolism which coverts food to greater proportions of body fat necessary to withstand cold and to provide nourishment to babies.

MtF trans retain these male characteristics although sometime in diminished amounts especially after extensive hormone therapy.

There is much more but I do not need to create a library here on all the factors. We can each research the issue, keying on the issue of sports. If you can find data supporting your position I will promise to read it.

Aerosmith - Dude (Looks Like A Lady) (Official Music Video) - YouTube

As one commenter so eloquently put, you cannot drive a truck in a bicycle race...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athos

No, you gave me no reasons. You gave me a lot of info re transgendering, but no reasons a MtF trans can compete fairly in women's sports.

My MtF trans friend said:

"There is no strength advantage! If anything it's a disadvantage. We have larger bones and the muscle loss kills us. Like toting a #50 feed bag 24/7."

FACT: Trans athletes do not have an unfair advantage in sports.

MYTH: Trans athletes’ physiological characteristics provide an unfair advantage over cis athletes.

Women and girls who are trans face discrimination and violence that makes it difficult to even stay in school. According to the U.S. Trans Survey, 22 percent of trans women who were perceived as trans in school were harassed so badly they had to leave school because of it. Another 10 percent were kicked out of school. The idea that women and girls have an advantage because they are trans ignores the actual conditions of their lives.
Trans athletes vary in athletic ability just like cisgender athletes. “One high jumper could be taller and have longer legs than another, but the other could have perfect form, and then do better,” explains Andraya Yearwood, a student track athlete and ACLU client. “One sprinter could have parents who spend so much money on personal training for their child, which in turn, would cause that child to run faster,” she adds. In Connecticut, where cisgender girl runners have tried to block Andraya from participating in the sport she loves, the very same cis girls who have claimed that trans athletes have an “unfair” advantage have consistently performed as well as or better than transgender competitors.
“A person’s genetic make-up and internal and external reproductive anatomy are not useful indicators of athletic performance,”according to Dr. Joshua D. Safer. “For a trans woman athlete who meets NCAA standards, “there is no inherent reason why her physiological characteristics related to athletic performance should be treated differently from the physiological characteristics of a non-transgender woman.”
https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-righ...etes-debunked/

Gotta agree with Athos on this one. Other than one off the cuff comment by a friend of yours, there was very little compelling evidence.

Quote:

“A person’s genetic make-up and internal and external reproductive anatomy are not useful indicators of athletic performance,”according to Dr. Joshua D. Safer.

Seems like a really foolish statement, easily disproven by the fact that men routinely outperform women in athletic endeavors. I remember hearing a story about a female athlete (maybe Jackie Joyner Kersee??) one time. She had won the Olympic 400 meter run and held the women's world record. At that same time, there were literally dozens of high school boys with better times than her world record.

She also said:
"Ask them if real men lactate, because I sure do. I have lost 60% muscle mass too. I used to pick up #500 poles like my son Jason did when we built a fence. I couldn't even budge it.

Our muscle turns to fat plus our metabolism goes away down. We walk past a Mrs. Fields and gain ten pounds."

Still just an anecdotal account.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Still just an anecdotal account.

Lots more accounts are available from others. Plus, she, when male, worked EMS/Fire/Police, was a private military contractor at an Air Force base, flew helicopters and knows a great deal about aviation.

AND none of us are true binaries. That doesn't exist.

Why have "men's" teams and "women's" teams? Why can't teams be made up of people, regardless of gender, who qualify?

So he/she knows about aviation? How does that matter?

Still just anecdotal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So he/she knows about aviation? How does that matter?

Just to include that she had a very full and interesting life as a male. And that male gave all that up to be a ... uh ... woman??? Hmm... wonder why.

All of which has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion. Many people choose to "switch" genders and then give it up to "switch" back to what they really are. But that also has nothing to do with the topic.