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we are not talking about a pregnancy, or even one at medical risk.

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Not talking about a pregnancy ? Umm wrong. An abortion is an invasive procedure that has risks . Doctors performing such a... um.. procedure.. have the same liablilities as other surgeons.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Not talking about a pregnancy ? umm wrong. An abortion is an invasive procedure that has risks . Doctors performing such a ...um.. procedure ..have the same liabilities as other surgeons.

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Its up to the doctor and patient to assume any risks, and liabilities of invasive surgery, NOT some ill informed law maker with a moral agenda. Don't you think they, the doctor and patient, are qualified to make that decision? What makes you think a government is? For what other purpose than put obstacles in front of a doctor performing a legal procedure would a legislature mandate a totally unnecessary, invasive procedure? And what's up with the moral testing clause in the rewrite of the transvaginal bill, and what's up with the person hood legislation if not to outlaw contraception?

You right wing conservative Christians look more like fundamentalist Muslims every day, thinking you can just outlaw a females rights and subjugate them to your own moral will. What's even more hypocritical, is that was the argument against affordable care by the right, a bureaucrat was going to get between a doctor and a patient. Didn't take long to see the true colors of the right did it?

Hello men riding high horses,

How long are you going to stick with that medically necessary BS, or are you going to admit that the REAL reason for ANY of this crap is to GUILT TRIP women into NOT seeking a legal procedure??

excon

We're the ones pointing out that what you're objecting to is already being done by the abortionist and you call us "men riding high horses"?

And as tom noted, you're objecting to this mandate (obviously for conscience reasons) while telling us our constitutionally enumerated right to religious freedom being violated by the Obamacare mandate is without merit? You can't be serious.

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You right wing conservative Christians look more like fundamentalist Muslims every day

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Yesterday the Iranian theocrats sentenced a minister to death for the crime of converting from Islam. There is a Saudi on the run for making tongue in cheek comments about Allah on Twitter . The Afghanis are having deadly riots over the burning of some Korans .Perhaps you might want to rethink your over the top hyperbole.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

We're the ones pointing out that what you're objecting to is already being done by the abortionist and you call us "men riding high horses"?

And as tom noted, you're objecting to this mandate (obviously for conscience reasons) while telling us our constitutionally enumerated right to religious freedom being violated by the Obamacare mandate is without merit? You can't be serious.

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What's being done by abortionist is what's called advise and consent. What you are trying to do is take away the advise, and the consent. How does the law take away YOUR freedom? I say it doesn't. How does it take away from the churches freedddom? It doesn't, you just say it does.

It does stop the church from denying others THEIR freedom though.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Yesterday the Iranian theocrats sentenced a minister to death for the crime of converting from Islam. There is a Saudi on the run for making tongue in cheek comments about Allah on Twitter . The Afghanis are having deadly riots over the burning of some Korans .Perhaps you might want to rethink your over the top hyperbole.

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You may be more sophisticated as opposed to barbaric, but no less driven to control others, but to be fair, all you guys think your religion should be the law for everybody, and that's what qualifies the comparisons.

And what you want is for the women to be denied an informed choice. You want them believing the lie that it is nothing more than a bloody lump of tissue to be discarded ,like so much chum .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Perhaps you might want to rethink your over the top hyperbole.

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Hello again, tom:

I don't know. Religious repression ALWAYS results in WAR and MAYHEM... If you don't Christians are capable of it, you ain't been paying attention..

excon

Ancient history. The only repression I see here is the rights of consciencious Christians and their institutions.

No different tal, the entire purpose of the ultrasound is "advise and consent". It just adds balance to the scale being weighted heavily in favor of infanticide. Babies should have rights, too.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

and wat you want is for the women to be denied an informed choice. You want them believing the lie that it is nothing more than a bloody lump of tissue to be discarded ,like so much chum .

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Hello again, tom:

This is MORE of your right wing arrogance. You BELIEVE that women don't know that they're ending the life of their baby... You ACTUALLY BELIEVE that they don't know that. So, MEN have to TEACH women about it...

There's nothing that can be said about that - NOTHING..

That's why this election has turned around dramatically in the last few days. The country is getting a looksee at who you guys REALLY are, and it scares them to death.

excon

I think after THOUSANDS of years, females know what an abortion is! I know they do! Its insulting to think that they don't. Its insulting to think that YOU, or anybody thinks that making a choice between you, and your doctor, is anybodies business.

The hypocrisy of such a position is you want to make a choice in the name of life but offer nothing after a child is born. Then you wash your hands of any responsibility, and put it on the mother who didn't want that responsibility in the first place.

Now it only affects poor, and those who have no power, or resources, because a female with money can/has/will do as she pleases any way.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I think after THOUSANDS of years, females know what an abortion is! I know they do! Its insulting to think that they don't. Its insulting to think that YOU, or anybody thinks that making a choice between you, and your doctor, is anybodies business. .

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Brother, it's the left that keeps telling us we're too dumb to know what to eat, what to feed our kids, how to prevent overdraft fees, that coffee is hot and coming soon, a symposium on how evil Coke is, but that teenage girl knows everything she needs to know about an abortion. Dude!

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The hypocrisy of such a position is you want to make a choice in the name of life but offer nothing after a child is born. Then you wash your hands of any responsibility, and put it on the mother who didn't want that responsibility in the first place.

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Um again, we're not the ones regulating us out of the business of being able to care for children, the sick, the homeless, the hungry, etc. etc...

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Now it only affects poor, and those who have no power, or resources, because a female with money can/has/will do as she pleases any way

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And Planned Parenthood is all too eager to provide those services, even without parental consent if they have to. Cry me a river, there is no lack of access - this is still a cure in search of a disease.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

but that teenage girl knows everything she needs to know about an abortion. Dude!

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Hello again, Steve:

So, you're going to punish ALL the women in order to teach some kids. Dude!

excon

PS> (edited) By the way, "teach" isn't what you're about.. It's INTIMIDATION so that you get the outcome YOU want.

Look. I don't know WHY you don't want to admit that you're TRYING TO CHANGE HER MIND. You're not being MEDICALLY correct.. You're not trying to INFORM kids. You're trying to CHANGE THEIR MINDS from seeking a LEGAL procedure...

WHY WON'T YOU ADMIT THIS?

Who said I won't admit I'm trying to change her mind? Darn right I want to change her mind, but you and I both know the abortionist isn't going to INTIMIDATE her into changing her mind.

So we've established a transvaginal ultrasound is not required by the law, 99 percent of clinics perform ultrasounds before an abortion already, I do want to change her mind but the abortionist isn't going to intimidate her into doing so. Again, what's the beef?

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Originally Posted by excon

This is MORE of your right wing arrogance. You BELIEVE that women don't know that they're ending the life of their baby.... You ACTUALLY BELIEVE that they don't know that. So, MEN have to TEACH women about it...

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Just a little correction here, the bill was introduced by Kathy J. Byron. Blame her for wanting to TEACH women about it.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I do want to change her mind but the abortionist isn't going to intimidate her into doing so. Again, what's the beef?

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Hello again, Steve:

Uhhh, you forgot, a mandatory waiting period, making her LOOK at the sonogram, making her LISTEN to the fetal heartbeat. You also forgot about the FAKE abortion clinics where they FOOL young girls...

These tactics are utterly DESPICABLE.

The beef I have, is abortion is a LEGAL procedure... In this great nation of ours, we should be INCREASING access to legal stuff, NOT restricting it. Like you always tell me about pot, if you don't like the law the way it is, CHANGE it.

Now, if you want to stand outside an abortion clinic and YELL at the women, go for it... That's legal. But, to get the state to do your dirty work for you is VERY Un-American... It won't stand.

excon

PS> (edited) Oh, yeah.. I forgot about the wanted posters and the murders... I suppose because they were abortion doctors, their murders were justified...

(edit 11) Yeah, that's right Un-American and Un-Constitutional... It's not the state involving itself in the church as YOU allege... It's the church involving itself in the state, as I allege. You're not going to deny that your disapproval of abortion is based upon your religion, are you?

Nahhh, because that's exactly where it comes from, and the state is constitutionally prohibited from aiding you in your religious cause...

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Uhhh, you forgot, a mandatory waiting period, making her LOOK at the sonogram, making her LISTEN to the fetal heartbeat.

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What's the waiting period... 2 days ? Seems reasonable if you want to snuff the life of a baby. There are no requirements to look at the image... they can sign a waiver... choice baby! Where is the baby's choice to choose life ?

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The beef I have, is abortion is a LEGAL procedure... In this great nation of ours, we should be INCREASING access to legal stuff, NOT restricting it. Like you always tell me about pot, if you don't like the law the way it is, CHANGE it.

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It is only the law of the land because the unelected for life black robed oligarchs decided it was . The people have not had their say.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

It is only the law of the land because the unelected for life black robed oligarchs decided it was . The people have not had their say.

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Hello again, tom:

I added edits above that I'd love you to comment on.

The only say you're going to get is a Constitutional amendment... That's the way it's done in this fine country of ours... I know you don't agree. I don't agree with a lot of our laws either.

excon

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You're not going to deny that your disapproval of abortion is based upon your religion, are you?

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I will deny it .The founders recognized the unalienable right of life in the Declaration of Independence. Sorry if I place that at a higher value than the 'persuit of happiness" . Certainly you must agree the 5th amendment due process clause is violated when a baby's life is snuffed .