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This thread is about YOUR belief that unbelievers are condemned to eternal punishment in hell. Stop trying to divert the discussion. If you wish to discuss other beliefs, start a new thread.

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Like I said. Afraid to take a position.

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You must not watch much tv or play video games or read dystopian novels. "Hellfire and damnation" et al. are frequent threats that pop up and have become part of everyday conversation and even are jokingly referred to. And obviously, you've never experienced the hell that is a kitchenful of dirty dishes that must be hand washed and dried -- much less an ENDLESS number of them to hand wash and dry.

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Yes. I'm sure Jesus was referring to video games.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Like I said. Afraid to take a position.

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As I said, Hell is a subjective experience. What would be Hell for me (obviously) isn't Hell for you. Jesus used fire in His description of Hell because that what his listeners were very familiar with, in particular because of nearby Gehenna, and because fire was very much a part of their daily lives. They knew fire is hot and hurts when touched and will destroy property and people. Maybe because of the recent and current wildfires in the US, we are returning to an understanding of what fire can do. Maybe the term "hellfire" will recapture the meaning and import it used to have.

Hell for me was the dufus getting elected and sucked up to Kim, Vlad, and that sheik guy who murdered a reporter, an American resident, and cut the body into pieces worse than those ISIS lunatics. If that's not hell, then what is?

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As I said, Hell is a subjective experience.

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That is what you said. It is not what Jesus said.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

That is what you said. It is not what Jesus said.

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Yes, He did. As I carefully explained, Jesus always used words and language His hearers could identify with.

No, He didn't. You show me where Jesus said hell is a subjective experience and I'll agree with you. All you've shown is where YOU said that.

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Not trying to be obstinate, but what you posted was their belief about Jesus. Their belief about salvation includes the following: "Salvation is attained now the same way it was then: we must have faith in Jesus Christ....

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Yes, I posted their belief about salvation, which includes Jesus.

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Carol: As I said, Hell is a subjective experience.

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jlisenbe: That is what you said. It is not what Jesus said.

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Carol: I didn't say it was what Jesus said. Jesus used words and language that his listeners could relate to. That's subjective.

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Jesus used words and language that his listeners could relate to. That's subjective.

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So Jesus did not say hell was subjective. At least we can agree on that.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So Jesus did not say hell was subjective. At least we can agree on that.

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But maybe that's what He meant. ;)

Happy Thanksgiving, JL!

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=jlisenbe;3825525]The story of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar further reinforces the idea of a burning hell.

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The Lazarus story is not to be taken literally. It's a parable. In your idea of hell, Lazarus would hardly be talking to father Abraham.

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And then there is this passage from 1 Peter. "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8(for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); 9then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment.

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"Condemned to extinction", EXTINCTON is not eternal punishment.
"Until the day of judgment", not ETERNAL punishment.

This is a good example how you misunderstand the plain meaning of words by adding your own ideas that simply aren't present.

Can we apply those same "extinctions" of man to the modern towns and cities that are wiped out by floods, fires, and earthquakes?

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"Condemned to extinction", EXTINCTON is not eternal punishment.
"Until the day of judgment", not ETERNAL punishment.

This is a good example how you misunderstand the plain meaning of words by adding your own ideas that simply aren't present.

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Uhm... actually, I did not give my understanding of the meaning. I simply quoted the text, so it would be helpful if you would give up your prejudices and read a little. The only person who has added their ideas to that passage is you.

Hope all of you have a great Thanksgiving!

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The Lazarus story is not to be taken literally. It's a parable. In your idea of hell, Lazarus would hardly be talking to father Abraham.

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A great many people do not agree with your assessment. Parables typically do not have named characters and do not have this level of detail. I tend to take it as a literal story, but I wouldn't be dogmatic about that. One way or the other, hell is portrayed as an eternal punishment.

I think the problem with your position is a lack of scripture which teaches that hell is not a literal place of eternal punishment. Do you know of any passage which teaches that?

Essentially you are talking about the afterlife, which we know nothing about, so not surprising humans fill those unknowns with myths and stories to understand what we don't understand. Those who fear death, a natural part of being human, worry excessively about the next plane of existence. I would think it misleading to get locked into such ideas so absolutely, and be distracted from the purpose of this life that we should be grateful for and celebrate with good works.

Difficult to have such a huge holiday shared by all in perpetuity, except by what we do each and everyday we live this life. May you all celebrate and bring happiness to all you know and share this life with.

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Essentially you are talking about the afterlife, which we know nothing about, so not surprising humans fill those unknowns with myths and stories to understand what we don't understand.

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This is what I am coming to like about you, Tal. I think you are misguided and mistaken, but at least you are willing to state unambiguously what you believe.

If the Bible is accurate, and that is a question you must first satisfy for yourself, then we actually know a lot about the afterlife.

Have a great Thanksgiving.

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Essentially you are talking about the afterlife, which we know nothing about, so not surprising humans fill those unknowns with myths and stories to understand what we don't understand.

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Beautifully stated! thus the biblical references to "hellfire" and "destruction," what all those evil, unChristian people deserve. Now, as a senior citizen, I've googled every which way about the afterlife. Nobody knows anything, of course (even Lazarus didn't give us a report), but speculation runs wild and includes bathrooms, teleportation, wearing clothes/not wearing clothes, all who end up in Heaven are age 33, animals/no animals -- fascinating stuff from people (Christians!) who really don't have a clue.

And I believe God is a bigger and more loving deity that we can ever imagine, so am guessing there are all sorts of surprises in store for us.

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am guessing there are all sorts of surprises in store for us.

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Quite likely.

I have no doubt the accuracy of the bible in its time, nor the feelings of hope for which it was written for those that needed to believe in something greater than themselves they could put faith in. It doesn't take much to see what ancient man dealt with from OTHER humans, nor the devastation and turmoil visited on the peoples at a whim. I think modern man having more knowledge of himself and his world has gotten quite beyond the alliterate colorful languages that ancient man engaged in and communicated with. The gaps of the unknown have been continually filled in with facts that often contradict feelings and speculations. One cannot ignore the evolutions of the human condition in the last few thousand years, at least to the extent we interpret the ways of the ancients. After all one cannot find order amongst chaos on a long term basis without some sort of drawing the masses along with custom and tradition, process that is reliable. Not only the Christian bible but all the religious works of the world that seek to fill that very human need.

I suppose it's okay to be the sheeple of the good shepherd who provides grass and protection from the wolves who would feed on them, such is the nature of the wolf, but to assign such absolutes to anything has it's own consequence. I just believe man must always grow beyond his present form, and history says we do, as we strive to be better and no way can that be achieved without remembering what we were, and how we screwed up, and do better than we did. Faith and belief are such personal things so you must forgive me if I don't just take your word, or that of your bible and seek my own answers. Yeah, I could be wrong, but so could you.

Wouldn't that be something if we met in the afterlife, and we were BOTH wrong?

8D

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I have no doubt the accuracy of the bible in its time, nor the feelings of hope for which it was written for those that needed to believe in something greater than themselves they could put faith in.

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It just comes down to a simple proposition. If the Bible is true, then we know a lot about many things, including the afterlife. If the Bible is not true, then we know very little.

How would you be able to know the Bible was accurate in its time?

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we know a lot about many things, including the afterlife.

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What "a lot" do you know about the afterlife?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

How would you be able to know the Bible was accurate in its time?

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I don't think "accurate" or "true" is the correct word to use in describing the Bible. It's made up many different styles of writing, including allegory, poetry, wisdom literature, parable, history, prophecy, law, fiction, and narration, so it must be interpreted and understood in the context of those styles.