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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I am not the only one.

I'm German-American. Are you going to blame me for WWII?

And that has what to do with this discussion? You have absolutely NO idea of my connections with any of the targets, so you have no right to disrespect me with that comment.

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I'm Half German too... and it's the Grandparents that came over before WW2. But it wasn't Budists that were responsible for 9/11 or most other terrorism.

Hey... YOU made the comment to start with... MOST people that are appologetic to the Terrorists are people that were NOT in Manhattan much less the Towers or even the Pentagon. We all know those on the Jet with the last one all died before that one could complete his task.

I am the one who has good reason to be offended. If it wasn't for an unusual gut feeling that I had to get out of there (not a remonition but I did want nothing more than to get out of there)... I would likely not be here holding this discussion with you now. I was IN the Pentagon that night, all night, and left not long before the area I was working was hit and burned. Some of the people I worked with died.

So unless you were actually INSIDE one of those three places yourself as I was... your connections are not quite as strong.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Hey... YOU made the comment to start with... MOST people that are appologetic to the Terrorists

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Where do you read that I'm apologizing for the terrorists?

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So unless you were actually INSIDE one of those three places yourself as I was... your connections are not quite as strong.

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So unless I was in the Towers or the Pentagon at the time of the attack, I have nothing worthwhile to say?

How ecumenical ! I bet there will be all types of people from all religions in pick up basketball games and singing kum bay you in the cafateria afterwards! And Islamberg is a peaceful mountain community in the Catskill Mountain .

Every major news source is calling it a mosque .None dispute it will be anything else .Yes it is understood that in addition to a mosque they intend to have some kind of community center .
Mosques are located all over the world . Some have minarets and domes ,some are in apartment complexes... any edifice will do. When the call for prayer booms out of loudspeakers 6 times a day the people in the area will know that it's a mosque.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Where do you read that I'm apologizing for the terrorists?

So unless I was in the Towers or the Pentagon at the time of the attack, I have nothing worthwhile to say?

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You are defending a Mosque that WILL be a defacto memorial for the 9/11 terrorists. There really isn't any middle ground. And if there is, it would literally fit IN the eye of a needle.

If you were not inside one of the three... you can't be lecturing someone that was about what they should think or feel. Its hard to put into words... but you have to actually have BEEN in that situation to understand it.

Soldiers with Combat experience know it all too well, victims of violent crime do too. It's a life altering experience. You will never view things exactly the same again.

You never saw unedited filmn from the attacks did you. They edited out the bodies of people jumping and falling. I kow somebody very well that was literally like two blocks away at that in the upper levels of building he was in, looking at it when it happened... he hasn't been able to work since after seening hundreds, not dozens of people fall to their death, some on fire many not.

And you can't fathom how sensitive I am about that topic. Actually in my line of work, my life essentually revolved around that for weeks afterwards as well. So there is a double whammy. Almost die... then have to deal with fixing the problems due to that event.

Smoothy, I just want to say that I'm so very sorry that you had to experience that. I can't imagine. Just the images on the news that day, and weeks later, made me sick, made me weep, broke my heart. If I had been there I would probably be in a padded cell sucking my thumb to this day.

I don't know much about Mosque's or what they represent, nor do I now a lot about the Muslim religion, so I cannot comment on Exy's topic.

If someone could explain, in a nutshell, what a mosque is, why it's erected, than perhaps I'll have something to contribute to this conversation. :)

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Smoothy, I just want to say that I'm so very sorry that you had to experience that. I can't imagine. Just the images on the news that day, and weeks later, made me sick, made me weep, broke my heart. If I had been there I would probably be in a padded cell sucking my thumb to this day.

I don't know much about Mosque's or what they represent, nor do I now a lot about the Muslim religion, so I cannot comment on Exy's topic.

If someone could explain, in a nutshell, what a mosque is, why it's erected, than perhaps I'll have something to contribute to this conversation. :)

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Completely changed the way I view everything. I was a LOT more happy go lucky before... I'm a whole lot more serious now just for starters. Nothing like almost dying to make you really serious about certain things.

Consider that a Mosque to a Muslim is as a Church to a christian, or a Temple to a Jewish person. The are essentully the same thing but to different religions. In Islam a Mosque is also used as a symbal of conquest historically... Mosques are and have been contructed FIRST on any conquered land at prominent inportant locations historically. Think back to when the whole region including Turkey was Christian... first think Muslims did was take all symbals of Christianity and convert them into Mosques not only destroying Christianity but rubbing it into everyone's faces... not to mention what was historically done to the people... convert or die. True we are talking a long time ago... but how is that essentually any different from what Christians and Jews experience in many Muslim nations today. There is a term for it in Islam, and its right on the tip of my toungue.

But Islam is far more than JUST a religion... its a dictated way of life... government control etc... and that's WHY its so dangerous.

The Idiot Cleric that is trying to build this Mosque has openly called for America to become Sharia Compliant... which would trample the constitutional rights of everyone here.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

You never saw unedited filmn from the attacks did you. They edited out the bodies of people jumping and falling.

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I saw the bodies falling, and I heard the splats [this word doesn't do it -- the awful sound when their bodies hit the pavement -- a sound I never want to hear again, the sound my elderly neighbor's head made when he fell off his porch onto his sidewalk]. I saw the rescue workers wincing and turning away. I too winced and turned away -- and cried.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

You are defending a Mosque that WILL be a defacto memorial for the 9/11 terrorists.

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No. I am defending their right to build this building.

I too have seen the elephant, Smoothy. I saw him in '78. I have no problem, as I said before, with building a mosque wherever an Imam wants to build a mosque. My problem is that the plans for the "community center" have six entire floors left blank. Can you say madrassa?

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Originally Posted by Catsmine

I too have seen the elephant, Smoothy. I saw him in '78. I have no problem, as I said before, with building a mosque whereever an Imam wants to build a mosque. My problem is that the plans for the "community center" have six entire floors left blank. Can you say madrassa?

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So? There's a Muslim center and school (call it madrassa, if you wish) three blocks from me. It used to be a large public school, but enrollment declined and it had to close. It sat empty and became derelict and an eyesore. Muslims bought the property and restored the building, cut the grass, filled the holes in the parking lot, and have been good neighbors. There is also a Lutheran school and a Catholic one within four blocks. Oh, and a public middle school across from the madrassa.

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
Thomas Jefferson

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. ~Thomas Jefferson

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Completely changed the way I view everything. I was a LOT more happy go lucky before....I'm a whole lot more serious now just for starters. Nothing like almost dying to make you really serious about certain things.

Consider that a Mosque to a Muslim is as a Church to a christian, or a Temple to a Jewish person. The are essentully the same thing but to different religions. In Islam a Mosque is also used as a symbal of conquest historically.....Mosques are and have been contructed FIRST on any conquered land at prominant inportant locations historically. Think back to when the whole region including Turkey was Christian....first think Muslims did was take all symbals of Christianity and convert them into Mosques not only destroying Christianity but rubbing it into everyones faces...not to mention what was historically done to the people...convert or die. True we are talking a long time ago...but how is that essentually any different from what Christians and Jews experience in many Muslim nations today. There is a term for it in Islam, and its right on the tip of my toungue.

But Islam is far more than JUST a religion...its a dictated way of life...government control etc....and thats WHY its so dangerous.

The Idiot Cleric that is trying to build this Mosque has openly called for America to become Sharia Compliant....which would trample the constitutional rights of everyone here.

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Wait--how is that different AT ALL from Christianity for thousands of years?

How is it essentially different from Christianity today? The cover-ups with the priests sexually exploiting children, the suppression of women, blacks, and gays for centuries--even now, many Christian churches do not allow women to serve other than as nuns and exclude gays entirely--and until 50 years ago, excluded blacks from white churches.

How is taking over the world in the name of religion ANY different than what Christianity does? Have you forgotten the Crusades, the witch burnings, the Spanish Inquisition and the missionaries to the New World?

Switch the word "Moslim" to Christian in the paragraph I quoted from you, and you will still have an essentially correct paragraph.

If you don't believe me, try being a witch (pagan) or gay in the Bible Belt sometime.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

If you don't believe me, try being a witch (pagan) or gay in the Bible Belt sometime.

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I remember growing up in NC and the "Negro-only" drinking fountains and bathrooms.

Hmmm, my Christian church told me that, because I have the wrong plumbing, there are several things it will not permit me to do.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

The Idiot Cleric that is trying to build this Mosque has openly called for America to become Sharia Compliant....which would trample the constitutional rights of everyone here.

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All 300+ million of us? With guns? Good luck with that.

Hello again,

I wonder if there are any Christian church's that would like to turn this country into a theocracy, thereby destroying the Constitution. Nahh. Whoever heard of such a thing?

But, if we DID find one, should we root 'em out? Or, is one within his constitutional rights to openly call for Christian law (or maybe Sharia)?

excon

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Originally Posted by RickJ

That is your interpretation. And I wish it were true but clearly it is not. It says Congress in one place and States in another... but it does not say cities, townships, etc...

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Hello again, Rick:

Not really. Read the words again. "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

City's county's, townships, and even HOA's ARE within the states jurisdiction. That, of course, doesn't mean that city's or county's are automatically going to guard everybody's rights. They don't. Certainly no more than the federal government does. If your city is violating ANY of your rights listed in the Bill of Rights, I believe you can sue, and I believe you can WIN.

excon

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

No. I am defending their right to build this building.

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Exactly WHERE is it Defined anyone has the right to build anything they want, anyplace they want without being subject to any retrictions or approvals (town, County, State and local residents)?

Have you ever tried to have something built, or even added to in a substantual way? I don't think you ever have based on that answer.

Because Non-muslims in the USA don't have that right anyplace. Why do Muslims think they are exempt.

I OWN my house... do I have the RIGHT to build anything I want on my Property? NO. I have a whole long list of things that HAVE to be complied with, including a percentage rule where my property can not excede a certain percentage of non permiable surfaces... and that is concrete, blacktop, pavers or structures. And EVERYTHING is subject to local citizen review... meaning even if I make it through all the zoneing, and other legal hurdles... it can still be shot down by my neighbors. And for the Record. There is no homeowners assiociation in the area I live.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

All 300+ million of us? with guns? Good luck with that.

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And I agree, but I also think he shouldn't be allowed to even get his foot in the door.

Off topic... but MOST and not just a simple majority of the United States wants nothing to do with Obama care... But they are ramming that down our throats. Think about it.

If the Democrats ever had their way... they would take away those guns from everyone. Then what would stand in their way.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again,

I wonder if there are any Christian church's that would like to turn this country into a theocracy, thereby destroying the Constitution. Nahh. Whoever heard of such a thing?

But, if we DID find one, should we root 'em out? Or, is one within his constitutional rights to openly call for Christian law (or maybe Sharia)?

excon

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Christian Chruches are refused to be allowed to build at certain locations all the time... there has been well publicized cases in Washington DC I know of, why are Muslim Mosques above the same laws, rules and review?