Ask Me Help Desk - Gun control past debates

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

(I've read no report yet that Adam Lanza was taking any drugs. Most mass murderers have stopped taking the prescribed drugs and have descended into their psychosis that the drugs kept them from experiencing.)

The report won't be out for a few more months according to news reports surrounding the event.

Adam Lanza had a paper trail of psych evaluations, but his mother decided to homeschool him and take him target shooting and allow him to be alone in his room for hours playing violent video games -- and may have had guns available to him in their home. So then what?

In retrospect, it was a disaster waiting to happen -- and how many more like that are out there?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Adam Lanza had a paper trail of psych evaluations, but his mother decided to homeschool him and take him target shooting and allow him to be alone in his room for hours playing violent video games -- and may have had guns available to him in their home. So then what?

In retrospect, it was a disaster waiting to happen -- and how many more like that are out there?

Until I can read a full report and see what it says Im going to reserve comment. She may have went great lengths to keep the guns away from him except under controlled conditions. We just don't know. As you have said before he may have figured out how to gain access to them. We don't know at this point and are going to have to rely on the report that comes out.

There were also rumors (unconfirmed) as far as I know that she was trying to have him committed. Again we don't really know and will have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

I suggest it be allowed as part of the solution that may be in order. Atleast address the problem at its core. It will require a harder look at how our rights are applied but it may be needed as a way to address the problem.

There are many forms it can be applied in. Some persons should not have the right to purchase a gun if in a high risk catagory. The problem is patient privacy rights. How we address that will have to be a part of the debate. HIPPA is keeping many doctors from reporting things as well as the fine line between treatment and trust. If a person knows they will lose a right by seeking help then why would they seek help in the first place? Its one of many landmines we will have to walk through to address the problems we are having.

I think besides criminals this is the biggest issue in the debate. But I agree with WG, the problems start when they go off the meds, and stop seeing a doctor. But most don't go off on the world, they isolate themselves. But it only takes one or two that do horrific things to get the notice of the public.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I think besides criminals this is the biggest issue in the debate. But I agree with WG, the problems start when they go off the meds, and stop seeing a doctor. But most don't go off on the world, they isolate themselves. But it only takes one or two that do horrific things to get the notice of the public.

They are even violent on the drugs too. It I a side effect of what they are taking.

Ref:

Fact: Between 2004 and 2011, there have been over 11,000 reports to the U.S. FDA’s MedWatch system of psychiatric drug side effects related to violence. These include 300 cases of homicide, nearly 3,000 cases of mania and over 7,000 cases of aggression. Note: By the FDA’s own admission, only 1-10% of side effects are ever reported to the FDA, so the actual number of side effects occurring are most certainly higher.

Psychiatric drugs and violence - federal investigation long overdue « CCHR International

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

You're right. Too easy for me

No, not at all.

More linkage.

NIMH · Mental Health Medications

FDA warning on possible rare side effects:

Acting more subdued or withdrawn than usual
Feeling helpless, hopeless, or worthless
New or worsening depression
Thinking or talking about hurting himself or herself
Extreme worry
Agitation
Panic attacks
Trouble sleeping
Irritability
Aggressive or violent behavior
Acting without thinking
Extreme increase in activity or talking
Frenzied, abnormal excitement
Any sudden or unusual changes in behavior

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

FDA warning on possible rare side effects:

The operant words are "possible" and "rare." And the individuals have to be taking these drugs PLUS have problems with them.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The operant words are "possible" and "rare." And the individuals have to be taking these drugs PLUS have problems with them.

11,000 may be rare considering how many are on the drugs. But it is still of great concern.

It goes to the point Im trying to make that it isn't just that they are going off the drugs for something to happen. And there may be many more out there where it has gone unreported.

Drug companies have been sued and settled out of court with non disclosure as part of the deal and in those cases we may never know.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The operant words are "possible" and "rare." And the individuals have to be taking these drugs PLUS have problems with them.

Also you combine it with this and those words just might go out the window.

Note: By the FDA’s own admission, only 1-10% of side effects are ever reported to the FDA, so the actual number of side effects occurring are most certainly higher.

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

Note: By the FDA's own admission, only 1-10% of side effects are ever reported to the FDA, so the actual number of side effects occurring are most certainly higher.

All drugs have side effects. What works well for one person may not work well for another, thus the attending/counseling psychiatrist takes note of problems and is constantly assessing and reassessing dosage and the med itself.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

All drugs have side effects. What works well for one person may not work well for another, thus the attending/counseling psychiatrist takes note of problems and is constantly assessing and reassessing dosage and the med itself.

Many of the drugs especially given to our children are issued by family doctors and not a psychiatrist. That may be part of the problem.

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

Many of the drugs especially given to our children are issued by family doctors and not a psychiatrist. That may be part of the problem.

I can agree with that. Our kids are overmedicated. My niece was given a med for ADHD to "calm her down," but in my professional opinion, it was a parenting problem that was never addressed.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I can agree with that. Our kids are overmedicated. My niece was given a med for ADHD to "calm her down," but in my professional opinion, it was a parenting problem that was never addressed.

To me by opening the discussion and trying to stay honest and look at the facts surrounding us then no matter what side of the issue you (general term) are on then you can reach a consensus as to what steps to take in the future.

The discussion shouldn't just be about a single issue surrounding a greater one. But an all encompassing approach to get to the bottom of things as best as we can understand them. I believe this type of an approach could lead to the best results for everyone. Im not so sure our politicians can nor will do the same. I can only hope they can and join in as much as allowed to do so by writing congressmen and senators and expressing my opinion.

But then we have fatherless families with single moms raising children (created by more than one father), and she works two and three jobs while the children come home from school to an empty house and get into all kinds of mischief, plus look to gangs (i.e. guns and violence) and the opposite sex to find "love" and a support system since there is none at home. So how does one tackle that problem?

I heard conceptives might be used but then with faith based organisations being against those being provided free by health insurance they won't be prescribing that solution. What you outlined is not one problem but many, firstly; the lack of a caring society, two; the rise of the me materialistic society, third; a permissive society that allows drugs, etc. fourth; the failure of education.

I have a solution but you won't take it;revolution

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

But then we have fatherless families with single moms raising children (created by more than one father), and she works two and three jobs while the children come home from school to an empty house and get into all kinds of mischief, plus look to gangs (i.e., guns and violence) and the opposite sex to find "love" and a support system since there is none at home. So how does one tackle that problem?.

There is way too much to address in such a small area. But your going to have to start with the law and the courts. They need to stop trating dads as walking wallets and start giving more custody to them rather then taking it away custody so support will be paid.

Many courts have a unwritten "standard" of 80/20 split with fathers getting the short end of the stick. That causes custody issues and greater conflict which in turn affects the child.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

i have a solution but you won't take it;revolution

Who is to revolt? Against what? And what, kill all the single moms and fatherless children?

Revolutio. The entire society needs to change and that starts with dumping present leadership no matter what the political hue

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Originally Posted by paraclete
I have a solution but you won't take it;revolution

I would prefer evolution instead and as WG and Dad are pointing out, its so complex, rational dialogue is what's needed, not just laws and guns.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I would prefer evolution instead and as WG and Dad are pointing out, its so complex, rational dialogue is whats needed, not just laws and guns.

Dang it!! Where is that geenie button. ;)

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I would prefer evolution instead and as WG and Dad are pointing out, its so complex, rational dialogue is whats needed, not just laws and guns.

Tell that to Governor Andrew Cuomo who couldn't wait to ram-rod the most ridiculous draconian law about guns in the nation through the NY government... without a sniff of rational dialogue

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Tell that to Governor Andrew Cuomo who couldn't wait to ram-rod the most ridiculous draconian law about guns in the nation through the NY government ....without a sniff of rational dialogue

Big surprise... a politician Grandstanding.

At least here we seem to have settled down in the debate and are now focusing on problems and issues instead of straight emotions.

He's trying to set up a 2016 Presidential run. His only chance is if Evita is telling the truth when she says she's not running .

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

But then we have fatherless families with single moms raising children (created by more than one father), and she works two and three jobs while the children come home from school to an empty house and get into all kinds of mischief, plus look to gangs (i.e., guns and violence) and the opposite sex to find "love" and a support system since there is none at home. So how does one tackle that problem?.

I don't know, seems to me that's the consequences of feminism, the sexual revolution, secular humanism, the liberal education system and just otherwise isolating and demonizing faith and family values... imho.

I will say it again, there is a big difference between the big city, and the rural cities. Crime and gangs are much more pervasive in NY, than say a burg of a few thousand people. Seldom do you have so many enclaves of drugs and violence and poverty, than the larger cities. Cops are busy and out and about and makes no sense for them to be out gunned. The vehicle of death is not crazy people acting out, but bands of people with bad intentions.

Would you then support the NYC solution of stop and frisk ? Or the more high tech version demonstrated by Police Commissioner Ray Kelly ?
NYPD testing new scanner that detects hidden guns - NYPOST.com
I can tell you that stop and frisk has been a highly successful program. There were 414 murders in NYC last year; a record low homicide rate . That is a drop from a high of over 2,000 in the Koch and Dinken years. The high tech version will be less intrusive and more effective .

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Cops are busy and out and about and makes no sense for them to be out gunned.

Yeah but BOZO Cuomo forgot that cops use guns. He outlawed the magazines the cops service revolver uses.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I don't know, seems to me that's the consequences of feminism, the sexual revolution, secular humanism, the liberal education system and just otherwise isolating and demonizing faith and family values...imho.

You really want to go back to women/mothers at home 24/7 and cooking a delicious and nutritious dinner every night that the whole family sat down at and conversed happily over, only fathers working, teachers and education respected and worth something, the church as the center of social/family life, a gallon of gasoline at 30 cents? Surely you jest!

You could have all of that and the woman still having a choice . Maybe the man can cook a meal . I can. We both work and still made sure we left time for sit down family meals .We both do basic household chores ;and both parent.. Oh sometimes there was scheduling challenges ,but nothing that couldn't be worked out ,and it beats the hell out of one person trying to be both bread winner and parent .

How the household functions is best left to the couple, but many house holds are headed by a single person and a lot are females. That's reality and should not be subjected to anyone's moral value system.

I have always been against stop and frisk without probable cause other than just race or age. Cast a wide net you can catch a few fish, that's blatant profiling. I am all for cops having new tools, but I hope its just not aimed at the hoodie crowd and that's their only probable cause. I can see it for safety in legit cases.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

you could have all of that and the woman still having a choice . Maybe the man can cook a meal . I can. We both work and still made sure we left time for sit down family meals .We both do basic household chores ;and both parent.. Oh sometimes there was scheduling challenges ,but nothing that couldn't be worked out ,and it beats the hell out of one person trying to be both bread winner and parent .

And we parents (married and in a stable relationship) teach our children from little on that they are part of the family and household and so contribute in whatever way they can, especially by doing chores appropriate to their age and ability. We parents monitor their schoolwork/homework and have ongoing communication with teachers and school. We parents establish a moral base, first with each other and then include children as they are born and brought up. Music will be classical, religious/spiritual, jazz, popular with only G-rated lyrics. Movies will be heartwarming or funny or even exciting but will always have a moral. TV shows will be similar to movies. No one will need guns except if they hunt, and those guns will be securely locked up.

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and it beats the hell out of one person trying to be both bread winner and parent .

Reality check------Some have to be both.

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How the household functions is best left to the couple, but many house holds are headed by a single person and a lot are females. That's reality and should not be subjected to anyone's moral value system.

I won't speak of the 2 female couple. But you and I know that a single parent is less than ideal.

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Reality check------Some have to be both

reality check... duh... I was speaking about what ought to be.

I speak of what is, and made no mention of a two female household, just one person, male, or female, same difference. That's reality too.

I wish I was rich, instead of handsome but that's my reality. :)

.fine then I'll repeat Steve's appropriate comment since it contributes to the reality

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I don't know, seems to me that's the consequences of feminism, the sexual revolution, secular humanism, the liberal education system and just otherwise isolating and demonizing faith and family values... imho.

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I have always been against stop and frisk without probable cause other than just race or age. Cast a wide net you can catch a few fish, that's blatant profiling. I am all for cops having new tools, but I hope its just not aimed at the hoodie crowd and that's their only probable cause. I can see it for safety in legit cases.

NYC ,before the new nonsense Cuomo law ,already had one of the toughest gun control laws in the nation.. maybe Chi-towns is tougher... both are ineffective as you just pointed out. The 2nd amendment you think is OK to violate ;but... have a solution that works ;and suddenly that amendment is inviolable.

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faith and family values

People of faith are no better or no worse that people with no faith, people are individuals not groups that get given common traits to all.
"Family values" is actually a meaningless statement as no one can define it.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

People of faith are no better or no worse that people with no faith, people are individuals not groups that get given common traits to all.
"Family values" is actually a meaningless statement as no one can define it.

And that attitude is a perfect demonstration of the problem.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

And that attitude is a perfect demonstration of the problem.

Please define -- what is a family and are its values?

Family values is code for MY family values are correct, and YOURS is wicked. Its not a lack of definition, its an imposition of definitions that's the problem. Now everyone takes their INDIVIDUAL rights as absolute, written in stone, no changes, or variations according to the rights of anyone else.

It gives the strong license to subjugate the weak in the name of defending those rights.