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"Most" is incorrect. Those were illegal abortions and were not always done in sterile conditions, were done by sleazier doctors and in their offices/treatment rooms, often with no assistance. As for the "most," we have no clue how many were done by girls and women alone in their bedrooms/bathrooms.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Back then, women and girls figured they would die during or after an abortion or a botched abortion. Infection was a huge problem.
Let's review. I said that back-alley abortion thing is mostly a myth, meaning there were not tons and tons of women suffering and/or dying from using coat hangers and such. The facts we have say that roughly 9 out of 10 of those abortions were performed by licensed physicians and that legalizing abortion had no major impact on the number of women that died from an abortion.
So when you argue we're going "back" to those days there you go, 9 out of 10 doctors were obviously quacks with no regard for sterile conditions after hours according to your 'logic.'
I have a different take on what benefits women. I do not think Obama's agenda items are really that good for women. I also do not think it's the federal government's role to provide them in any event.
I believe, rather, that we all should be responsible for our own reproduction. Sex is optional, pregnancy is 100% preventable. There seems to be a belief that if birth control is free, it will solve all our reproductive problems. Not so. Birth control is already quite cheap - if a person can afford a bottle of pop, they can buy a condom. If they can afford a case of pop, they can afford a months' supply of the pill. This idea that affordability is the driving factor behind women getting pregnant when they can't support a child is a myth. Women will find a way to pay for birth control if they are of a mindset to use it. So will men.
Birth control is also not inocuous, nor is abortion. Both dramatically impact the woman's body and they are not medically necessary in most cases. When they are, they should be prescribed and covered as medical treatments and covered as such. For example, tubal surgery for an ectopic pregnancy is medically necessary to save the life of the mother - it should be treated as a medical procedure, not an abortion. The intention is not to terminate the pregnancy but to save the mother. On the other hand, an abortion because someone got drunk and slept with their boyfriend - not medically necessary, poses risk to the mother, poses almost certain emotional devastation. Not necessarily the right thing to do, regardless of your moral values about abortion. Taking responsibility for it seems to me to be the right thing for that woman and her partner to do, including the bill. It is not, however, my responsibility to pay for their behavior.
Whatever money the government gives free to someone has to be earned by and then taken from someone else. We need to have some high standards when we decide that our neighbor should buy things for us.
It's a philosophical difference about the role of government and the role of individuals. I personally think, for example, it's more caring to hold people accountable - particularly adults - than to bail them out of their self-made messes. The bail-out can be a trap, and prevention of learning.
The best social programs are education and jobs - they benefit all of us. I'd like our government to focus on creating an environment where these things can thrive, which includes cutting some of these school unions down to size when they become overly burdensome to the tax payers.
There is no such thing as free contraceptions since you are paying a monthly or bi monthly PREMIUM for a contracted benefit from a private company.
Some of us pay no premium... yet. Still you're OK with not giving religious employers a choice.
Spewechless is saying,And I agree 100%. And now we have to define what old Speechless Dude meant by "child" If I saw a child playing in the street I'd stop traffic and pick him up. If I saw a child in trouble in a swimming pool I'd jump in and pull him out. Old Dude couldn't be referring to abortion because at no time are children involved. Good thought speechless! Perhaps you should try saving disadvantaged children instead of attempting to control a woman's medical decision. Might even make the world a better place, TomQuote:
There is nothing "wrongheaded" about trying to save a child's life.
Most employee based health insurance requires a deduction for health insurance, tellme more about yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
The distinction of fact is the EMPLOYER aspect you acknowledge as employees have taxes, and rights that their EMPLOYER cannot take away.
Do you expect employees to give up heir rights and obligations to work for a church?
No one EVER had a right to contraceptive coverage from their employer in this country. You can't take away something you never had.Quote:
Most employee based health insurance requires a deduction for health insurance, tellme more about yours.
The distinction of fact is the EMPLOYER aspect you acknowledge as employees have taxes, and rights that their EMPLOYER cannot take away.
Do you expect employees to give up heir rights and obligations to work for a church?
We've had this discussion, I think it's great idea to help children inside and outside the womb. It's a baby, it's always been a baby - no one but some pro-choicer would run around telling her friends she's having a fetus.Quote:
And I agree 100%. And now we have to define what old Speechless Dude meant by "child" If I saw a child playing in the street I'd stop traffic and pick him up. If I saw a child in trouble in a swimming pool I'd jump in and pull him out. Old Dude couldn't be referring to abortion because at no time are children involved. Good thought speechless! Perhaps you should try saving disadvantaged children instead of attempting to control a woman's medical decision. Might even make the world a better place, Tom
And the church has no right to tell private business how they do their business. Or government how to govern.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Now therein lies the problem because someone has to tell them, their record indicates very poor performance
The real problem is the Dems grasping at straw. Women in this country are concerned about jobs for themselves and their families . They worry about paying the weekly grocery bill . They are not worried about a full time student activist's ability to get contraception ,or this fanciful notion that if Romney is elected that abortions will be illegal.
Those women will REALLY have to worry about the grocery bill if abortions become illegal!
But that's exactly what's inside the womb until it comes out. That's what I keep calling you on. It's not a BAY-BEE, It's not a CHILD, In fact and in truth it is a fetus both medically and legally. You lifers try like hell to make it something it's not. And then get angry because it doesn't work for you. We don't shoot up and bomb people you all do, TomQuote:
some pro-choicer would run around telling her friends she's having a fetus.
First of all Tommy Boy I don't shoot up and bomb anyone, nor does any pro-life group so you can toss that straw man aside. I bet more women have died from legal abortion mills than abortionists killed by wackos. Secondly, you avoided the point. No one I know of brags about having a fetus, they get excited because they're having a baby. But I know how it with you leftists, you always want it both ways. Just like Tal telling the "it's my way or the highway" while arguing that view is wrong.
During both of my pregnancies, the medical people always referred to my "babies" as fetuses.
"I going to have a baby."
Maybe you spoke too soon?Quote:
Originally Posted by speedball1
Laws and policies
The Unborn Victims of Violence Act, passed in 2004, defines a fetus as a "child in uterus" and a person as being a legal crime victim "if a fetal injury or death occurs during the commission of a federal violent crime."[8] In the U.S. 36 states have laws with more harsh penalties if the victim is murdered while pregnant. Some of these laws defining the fetus as being a person, "for the purpose of criminal prosecution of the offender" (National Conference of State Legislatures, 2008). Laci Peterson, murdered in 2002, is one of the more high-profile homicides.
Currently in the North Carolina Senate, a bill called the SB 353 Unborn Victims of Violence Act is being considered for legislation that would create a separate criminal offense for the death of a fetus when the mother is murdered. The North Carolina Coalition Against Domestic Violence does not support this law for numerous reasons including failure to see violence against the mother as the cause of the fetal death.[9] The Coalition does, however, support the position of the National Network to End Domestic Violence regarding the Unborn Victims of Violence Act.[citation needed]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_pregnant_women
Hello again,
The women I know have the ability to consider TWO thoughts at once... Certainly, they're worried about jobs. That DOESN'T mean, of course, that they're not also worried about their vaginas, and how Mitt is going to deal with them.
excon
Ex, please, we don't need those images being put in our head
Hello again, clete:
Don't they say vagina over there?
excon
Yeah one real issue ,and one ginned up phony issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello again, tom:
Maybe if your state legislature were proposing a law that required a probe to be stuck way up inside you, for NO earthly medical reason, you'd feel different about the issue...Quote:
yeah one real issue ,and one ginned up phony issue.
Excon
And that's a phony issue, no one is requiring a probe. We've had that talk.
Hello again, Steve;
Yeah, it's another one of those myths you've been telling us about. I guess the state of Virginia didn't hear about it..Quote:
And that's a phony issue, no one is requiring a probe.
Bwa, ha ha ha..
Excon
DON'T YOU DARE set behind the safety of your computer and tell me that there has been no clinic violence.Quote:
I don't shoot up and bomb anyone, nor does any pro-life group so you can toss that straw man aside.
In the thirteen years I was head of security and chief escort for The Sarasota Women's Health Clinic I've been attacked four times, shot at twice, went through two bomb scares and had two Anthrex letter delivered to the clinic. The first one we opened in the office and got white powder all over us. It took HazMat three days to test the powder and tell us it was flour. Can you imagine what setting out those three days was like?
We went through a full invasion where they arrested a hundred protesters for criminal . Trespass.
So don't you dare tell me there's no clinic violence. How many doctors have been shot by the pro-life movement? It's easy to set behind the safety of your computer and pronounce judgment but I was there. I lived the violence while all you do is punch a few keys and talk about things you know nothing about, Don't you dare to presume to tell me what it was like out there because you have no idea just how bad it was out there.! Tom
Since you love condescension repeat after me, Steve did not now or ever say there has been no clinic violence.Quote:
DON'T YOU DARE set behind the safety of your computer and tell me that there has been no clinic violence.
Pay attention Speedy and keep it relevant, you accused our side of shooting up and bombing people. MY side does no such thing. No one on MY side endorses, approves of or engages in clinic violence, criminal trespass, shooting, bombing, sending anthrax or whatever. Whatever people you're referring to are not MY side. MY side is peaceful, MY side engages in such militant tactics as prayer, persuasion and compassion.
Yes, there are wackos, I believe I called them wackos and they do stupid, vile, hateful, criminal, inexcusable things. I am not on their side nor are the vast majority of pro-life people, we detest these people as much as you do if not more, got it?
You've been there, I get it and don't discount your experience. I've been there, too... on the other side, mourning with women living in a personal hell because of the self-imposed guilt they felt in aborting their child, one of which is my daughter. Don't discount my experience either, I have real and valid personal reasons for hating abortion in seeing the damage it's done to others and knowing I will never hold my grandchild. We can't talk or you can just hide behind your keyboard and keep throwing out bullsh!t, kneejerk responses, your choice.
We had that conversation, the law does not require any probe no matter how much you lefties protest.Quote:
Yeah, it's another one of those myths you've been telling us about. I guess the state of Virginia didn't hear about it..
Oh yeah? Then what's this all about? I don't shoot up and bomb anyone, nor does any pro-life group so you can Atoss that straw man aside If you call yourself Pro-Life then you just can't tap dance away from responsibility. As you say, there my be wackos out there shooting and bombing but they're your wackos They are as much to do with the pro-life movement as you.Quote:
Steve did not now or ever say there has been no clinic violence.
Oh! Am I glad you brought that out.Quote:
mourning with women living in a personal hell because of the self-imposed guilt they felt in aborting their child
GUILT is one of the major weapons you people use. Who makes them feel guilty for walking into a clinic? Why you people do. You have laying a guilt trip down on a girl to a fine art. I had a feeling that you were a protester. You have that mind set. Abortions are down now. Nt because of any thing the pro-life movement has done. Abortions are down because of " The Pill".
So Steve, you can bleat about how righteous you are and how you pray outside of clinics but I know you people I've seen what you can do and I'm glad I walked away after thirteen years with my life. You see they kill escorts as well as doctors. Care to tap dance away from that? Tippity-tap! Tom
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Steve did not now or ever say there has been no clinic violence.
Listen up shorty, you tell me which ORGANIZED pro-life group bombs and shoots people. None, nada, zero, zilch. But once again your side show how they want it both ways, I'm sure YOU want to distance yourself from the haters that want to assassinate Romney but using your logic you area as much to do with these haters they are.Quote:
Oh yeah? Then what's this all about? I don't shoot up and bomb anyone, nor does any pro-life group so you can toss that straw man aside If you call yourself Pro-Life then you just can't tap dance away from responsibility n as you say, there my by wackos out there shooting and bombing but they're your wackos They are as much to do with the pro-life movement as you.
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Mourning with women living in a personal hell because of the self-imposed guilt they felt in aborting their child
Do you even bother to read before erupting at the mouth? There is a hyphenated word in there you missed, self-imposed. You also conveniently ignored the word "compassion." But I get it, you aren't interested in talking just as I suspected, you just want to reflexively foam at the mouth.Quote:
Oh! Am I glad you brought that out.
GUILT is one of the major weapons you people use.
Tippty-Tap Tippty-tap! Gee! It's fun to watch you bob and weave as you distance yourself away from the wackos in your movement, You're a fun guy,
If that's the best you can do,correct my grammar and spelling?Quote:
Do you even bother to read before erupting at the mouth? There is a hyphenated word in there you missed, self-imposed. You also conveniently ignored the word "compassion." But I get it, you aren't interested in talking just as I suspected, you just want to reflexively foam at the mouth
If that's so then you're out of gas. You can rave on about how righteous you people are and how much praying you do and some folk might even believe that's all you do. But you made a big mistake. You came up against a guy who was there and saw. Your mistake! I said some time ago I wish I'd had you out in front of my clinic. You can't keep your mouth shut and with all the shouting and milling about if you would have put one foot inside my compound it would have been my pleasure to introduce you to The Florida Court system and The Sarasota City Jail. Too bad we never met. Tom
Dude, there's no bobbing and weaving on my part, I am rock solid steady and focused. You're scattering shots at everything except what I've actually said.
P.S. This fantasizing about getting your grubby little paws on me is really starting to get creepy. You might want to seek counseling for that, it can't be healthy.
Well Romney isn't waging a war on women he has "binders full of them", suggesting they are falling over themselves to serve with him. What an ego, it's a wonder his head doesn't explode
Yes it was a goofy comment but I'm quite sure he meant binders full of female prospects for cabinet positions. That was the subject, diversifying his cabinet.Quote:
Well Romney isn't waging a war on women he has "binders full of them", suggesting they are falling over themselves to serve with him. What an ego, it's a wonder his head doesn't explode
My question would be why are women's groups keeping women in binders?Quote:
"I had the chance to pull together a Cabinet, and all the applicants seemed to be men," he said. "I went to a number of women's groups and said, 'Can you help us find folks?' and they brought us whole binders full of women."
Hello again, Steve:
My question would be WHY doesn't he know any qualified women. I also wonder WHY he has to ask Ann about what women think.Quote:
My question would be why are women's groups keeping women in binders?
As a liberal AND a businessman, I KNOW qualified women, and I KNOW what women think.
Excon
Ask Me Help Desk - View Single Post - Who's winning??
Romney has already been shown a liar (with a straight face), and the resumes were compiled and given to Romney by a group promoting females in executive government positions.
Of course he played along,and abandoned the ideas of MASSGAP after a while.
Uh huh. I've determined that if you libs would acknowledge facts instead of trying to drive wedges in where they don't belong we could get along a lot better.Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
Just like Bush's cabinet was more diverse than Obama's, Romney's cabinet as governor puts you libs to shame.
But why did he have to lie and say it was his idea and not that he was approached by an advocacy group like all the othe Massachusetts candidates? Why do that?
There is no lie, he initiated the effort and then carried it out. I gave you the quote:Quote:
But why did he have to lie and say it was his idea and not that he was approached by an advocacy group like all the othe Massachusetts candidates? Why do that?
Quote:
"I had the chance to pull together a Cabinet, and all the applicants seemed to be men," he said. "I went to a number of women's groups and said, 'Can you help us find folks?' and they brought us whole binders full of women."
My question is when will the Obama White House follow the Lilly Bedwetter Fair Pay Act? The median annual salary for female White House employees was 18% less than male employees... $60,000 compared with $71,000.
I also want to know why the President runs a White House that is a hostile work environment for women according to former White House communications director and Mao Tse-tung fan Anita Dunn .
Why is the President waging war on women?
Been asking that question for months myself.
By the way ex, you called Allen West a loser in his race. Well, not so good news for you...
Allen West, Patrick Murphy congressional race: West has 9 point lead over Murphy in new poll
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